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LTTP: Final Fantasy VI

pleaseinsertdisctwo

pleaseinsertdisctwo

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Oct 31, 2017
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I'm like 4 or 5 hours in.

Played through I, finished IV, V is on hiatus for now (I love it but admittedly.... the loading times got to me), and I've finished VII-XV (minus the MMO's). So, barring the earliest entries it's kinda like I left this for last.

Just finished the Phantom Train section.

I'm playing the Anthology version. Loading times are seriously a non-issue it's just like 2 seconds of loading after a battle and that's it.

The opening CG cutscene was gorgeous; I just wish it wasn't at like 50p.

Anyways, the game is actually gripping me more than I thought it would. Every party member has unique attributes, I really like the Relic system, the game changes things up constantly, it seems like there's quite a bit of player choice involved, and even though the translation is total fucking ass I already care for certain party members.

Also people who hated on Kefka are weird IMO; even though I'm super early into the game, Kefka has already had a huge presence and you can already tell that he's a frightening psychopath.

My only issues so far: sometimes the game is a tad obtuse on what to do/where to go, and other than that it's just the translation that bugs me from time to time. I think Cyan has the worst translation of anything ever lol


So yeah, can't wait to dig deeper into the game!!! Also any tips/advice?
 
JoeNut

JoeNut

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Oct 27, 2017
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A tad obtuse is an understatement, the game barely tells you anything with regards to where to go or what to do next. I understand people don't want hand holding but i spent way too much time just wandering around and gave up playing eventually
 
DarthWoo

DarthWoo

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Oct 27, 2017
2,658
FF VI (or FF III as we knew it at the time) was my first Final Fantasy, and to this day is probably still my favorite. You're in for a treat. I suppose the load times may not be that obnoxious if you're already used to it from every other disc-based RPG with random battles, but it might be a bit jarring for those who originally experienced it in its cartridge form.

Not really sure if it's a valid tip or if they fixed it since it was probably considered a bug in the original version, but in the second part of the game there's a forest with Brachiosaur enemies which are great for grinding, if that's something you do. The bug part is that they were vulnerable to a spell combination of Vanish + X-Zone (not sure what it's called in Anthology) that basically meant instant death for many non-boss enemies. I used them to pointlessly max out every spell on every character.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
theofficefan99 said:
Anyways, the game is actually gripping me more than I thought it would. Every party member has unique attributes, I really like the Relic system, the game changes things up constantly, it seems like there's quite a bit of player choice involved, and even though the translation is total fucking ass I already care for certain party members.
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A lot of the Final Fantasy games have issues with the normal encounters, but everyone having unique powerful abilities goes a long way to make them more enjoyable as opposed to just hitting Attack all the time like some of the other ones could come down to.
theofficefan99 said:
My only issues so far: sometimes the game is a tad obtuse on what to do/where to go, and other than that it's just the translation that bugs me from time to time. I think Cyan has the worst translation of anything ever lol
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The translation was actually quite natural-sounding for a mid-90's game, but Ted Woolsey had 30 days to translate the entire game, and it shows. The later translation done for the GBA version fixes almost all of the errors from the original one.
 

AzVal

Member
May 7, 2018
1,873
when I played ff6 20 years ago, I unknowingly did a sequence break wich skipped the background arc of one of the main characters, never got to fully experience the game as I should have, unfortunately I cant bring myself to play that kind of turn based games/system anymore.
 
OmegaDL50

OmegaDL50

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
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Interesting fact: Leveling up only increases HP and MP gain.

At certain points in the game, your characters levels are automatically scaled to a nearest neighbor and are effectively averaged among your party members. Of course having lower levels helps when the averaging hits when a higher level character joins your party.

This happens at three points in the game.

When you get the airship which averages everyone.
After the banquet based on your current party members
After the Thamasa arc when you first start the World of Ruin.

Level re-averaging is based on the characters in your party at the time. If Gau's on the Veldt, he won't be counted. When starting the WoR, Celes is your only character, so the next character's level is based on hers only. Also, the re-averaged level isn't exactly the average; it's the average +/- a number, the number being dependent on the character (for example, Mog is +5, so he'll join at party average +5)

This works to your benefit doing low level runs sort of, since the averaging kicks in and calculates your highest leveled party member and your lowest and their levels are adjusted automatically into an average without actually needing to battle.

For example having a team of Terra, Sabin, Locke, and Edgar as low as possible actually benefits later on because when the averaging hits it will also have future characters join start at a lower level.

Also stat gains have no impact for leveling up. You get HP and MP increases, but main stats such as STR, MAG, M.DEF and so forth actually don't improve via level gains. Most stat boosts in FFVI are mainly derived from Espers and the stat bonuses they provide as a level up bonus, as well as equipment.

Using Terra for example

Her base stats at very beginning of the game are as follows

STR 31
SPD 33
STM 28
MAG 39

Terra at level 70 with no armor equipped or any esper bonuses also has the same stats.

The only stats that naturally improve without equipment or Esper bonuses is HP and MP, so preventing level ups won't change anything statistical in the sense of being overpowered since that mainly stems from actual equipment and bonus stat gains via Espers.

There are a few places where you are forced to gain experience, these are:
* The Mine Cart Ride at the end of the Magitek Research Facility
* A few battles during the Imperial Banquet session
* The six battles before Ultros and the Imperial Air Force
* A few paintings in Owzer's Mansion

So if you are the type that grinds with the intent to boost your characters (Like the pointless Lete River trick for example), know that only HP and MP is improved with level gains, Improved ATK damage is derived mainly from equipment.

Esper bonuses are only means of permanently raising base stats like STR and MAG.

Also the Evade stat is bugged prior to the GBA version of FF6. Since the Anthology port of FF6 is based on the SNES version, It also has the Evade bug as well.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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theofficefan99 said:
I'm like 4 or 5 hours in.

Played through I, finished IV, V is on hiatus for now (I love it but admittedly.... the loading times got to me), and I've finished VII-XV (minus the MMO's). So, barring the earliest entries it's kinda like I left this for last.

Just finished the Phantom Train section.
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But did you suplex the train?

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Manmademan

Manmademan

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Keym said:
I'm already reporting him
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Report him if you want, Kefka still sucks.

you can hate on Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus, or Necron if you want- but they served their purpose. They were difficult final encounters, but *did not drive the plot*. It's less than ideal, but I get it.

Kefka as a villain utterly and truly sucks. The events of the game revolve around him, yet he has no motivation besides "I'm crazy! look at me!" and has a power level that varies wildly and inconsistently to serve the needs of the storyline. Having an end boss that's "Whatever" is one thing, but having a shit tier villain driving the plot from 30 minutes in and having to deal with try hard bullshit for the entire 50 hour experience is something entirely different.
 
Weiss

Weiss

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Manmademan said:
Report him if you want, Kefka still sucks.

you can hate on Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus, or Necron if you want- but they served their purpose. They were difficult final encounters, but *did not drive the plot*. It's less than ideal, but I get it.

Kefka as a villain utterly and truly sucks. The events of the game revolve around him, yet he has no motivation besides "I'm crazy! look at me!" and has a power level that varies wildly and inconsistently to serve the needs of the storyline. Having an end boss that's "Whatever" is one thing, but having a shit tier villain driving the plot from 30 minutes in and having to deal with try hard bullshit for the entire 50 hour experience is something entirely different.
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I mean there's also his crippling nihilism that compels him to see no value in living.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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If you think Kefka boils down to "I'm crazy", learn to read, my dude.
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I can read just fine, and I finished that game more times than I care to mention- but in spite of Kefka, not because of him

That's so condescending and stupid, jeez
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you disagree. I get it. But I'm not wrong here.

Kefka *has no motivation* besides being driven crazy by a botched magitek fusion process. That's it. He's crazy because an experiment fucked up.
He's completely one dimensional and nothing he does has any deeper meaning or purpose behind it. As a villain his motivations are nonsensical and there's no way to sympathize with him. It's chaos for the sake of chaos with a paper thin rationalization.

Professor Beef said:
my only sin is waiting until a few years ago to discover how boring this game is
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wouldn't call it boring. A good chunk of the player cast is interesting and there's some good world building. But the plotline? Fucking WOOF.

Here's what I mean. intelligently written the plot would go as follows:

Kefka: I'm kefka! the crazy clown! Nihilism is awesome and life is meaningless!
Party: Well if that's your deal, then kill yourself if life is meaningless.
Kefka: Well...I...ah...er....

**ROLL CREDITS**
 
Weiss

Weiss

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Manmademan said:
I can read just fine, and I finished that game more times than I care to mention- but in spite of Kefka, not because of him



you disagree. I get it. But I'm not wrong here.

Kefka *has no motivation* besides being driven crazy by a botched magitek fusion process. That's it. He's crazy because an experiment fucked up.
He's completely one dimensional and nothing he does has anything deeper behind it. As a villain his motivations are nonsensical and there's no way to sympathize with him. It's chaos for the sake of chaos with a paper thin rationalization.
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FFVI is, fundamentally, a story about finding reasons to live and moving on in the face of despair. Kefka can't do that. He's too broken and nihilistic to see that life has value and is worth living.

Like why do you think he
casts himself as god of a ruined world, and when confronted uses his divine visage to proclaim that all life has no meaning over the objections of the party who all have found reasons to live in the world he destroyed.

It's fine if you don't like Kefka, or that he didn't work for you because at the end of the day it's all subjective, but you're ignoring what's actually there to prop up a narrative that isn't actually true.
 
Keym

Keym

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Oct 26, 2017
9,191
Manmademan said:
Kefka *has no motivation* besides being driven crazy by a botched magitek fusion process. That's it. He's crazy because an experiment fucked up.
He's completely one dimensional and nothing he does has any deeper meaning or purpose behind it. As a villain his motivations are nonsensical and there's no way to sympathize with him. It's chaos for the sake of chaos with a paper thin rationalization.
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The fact that you don't like the kind of villain Kefka represents doesn't make him a bad villain.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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Keym said:
The fact that you don't like the kind of villain Kefka represents doesn't make him a bad villain.
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I don't like bad villains. Kefka is a bad villain, therefore he is one.

Weiss said:
FFVI is, fundamentally, a story about finding reasons to live and moving on in the face of despair. Kefka can't do that. He's too broken and nihilistic to see that life has value and is worth living.

Like why do you think he
casts himself as god of a ruined world, and when confronted uses his divine visage to proclaim that all life has no meaning over the objections of the party who all have found reasons to live in the world he destroyed.

It's fine if you don't like Kefka, or that he didn't work for you because at the end of the day it's all subjective, but you're ignoring what's actually there to prop up a narrative that isn't actually true.
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I don't disagree that FFVI is a story about finding reasons to live and moving on in the face of despair- though the fact that the world of ruin was thrown in as an **afterthought** to the game kind of undermines this.

The fact is that the party all finds reasons to live that are completely independent of Kefka and occur outside the context of what he does. Terra finds a reason to live by defending children against Humbaba. Strago finds a reason to live after realizing what Relm means to him in Zozo. Celes does the same after caring for Cid on that island. Sabin finds a purpose after saving a child from a collapsing building in Tzen. Setzer does after coming to terms with his grief over Darrill and so on and so forth.

a GOOD villain would be the drive behind the heroes finding their purpose, but this isn't the case with Kefka. other than blowing up the world and going on his merry way he does absolutely nothing. Square needed to invent a gaggle of other random villains to drive the character development that Kefka should have been able to do as an antagonist but can't because he's a shit tier villain.
 
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Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

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Oct 25, 2017
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Weiss said:
FFVI is, fundamentally, a story about finding reasons to live and moving on in the face of despair. Kefka can't do that. He's too broken and nihilistic to see that life has value and is worth living.

Like why do you think he
casts himself as god of a ruined world, and when confronted uses his divine visage to proclaim that all life has no meaning over the objections of the party who all have found reasons to live in the world he destroyed.

It's fine if you don't like Kefka, or that he didn't work for you because at the end of the day it's all subjective, but you're ignoring what's actually there to prop up a narrative that isn't actually true.
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ABsolutely correct. Kefka is absolutely essential as part of the narrative and themes that the game is aiming for, so I dislike claims that he's poorly written or one note. You just need to actually use more than surface level analysis
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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DiipuSurotu said:
That's the dumbest sentence I've read this month. What does that even mean lmao
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Mostly me being snarky, but I'll slow it down for you.

"just because you don't like the kind of villain that Kefka represents..."

The kind of villains I don't like are underdeveloped, terrible villains.

"...doesn't mean he is one."

Well, since the only villains I don't like are underdeveloped half baked bad villians with no development, and I don't like Kefka, he meets the definition by default.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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Aaronrules380 said:
ABsolutely correct. Kefka is absolutely essential as part of the narrative and themes that the game is aiming for, so I dislike claims that he's poorly written or one note. You just need to actually use more than surface level analysis
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He's not. If the world of ruin had come about via the statues randomly going rogue for literally any other reason the entire second half would have turned out exactly the same- and the first half of the game would have been better served by a villain with a coherent motivation.
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

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Manmademan said:
Mostly me being snarky, but I'll slow it down for you.

"just because you don't like the kind of villain that Kefka represents..."

The kind of villains I don't like are underdeveloped, terrible villains.

"...doesn't mean he is one."

Well, since the only villains I don't like are underdeveloped half baked bad villians with no development, and I don't like Kefka, he meets the definition by default.
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You literally said " Kefka is a bad villain, therefore he is a bad villain"
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

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Oct 25, 2017
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Manmademan said:
He's not. If the world of ruin had come about via the statues randomly going rogue for literally any other reason the entire second half would have turned out exactly the same- and the first half of the game would have been better served by a villain with a coherent motivation.
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Kefka does have a motivation: After experiencing years of human experimentation he became a nihilistic asshole who couldn't find the meaning of life, and couldn't stand that other people could. His driving motivation is envy, and the idea that if he can't derive meaning or enjoyment in life, even with near unlimited power at his disposal, than NOBODY should be able to.
 
Weiss

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Manmademan said:
I don't disagree that FFVI is a story about finding reasons to live and moving on in the face of despair- though the fact that the world of ruin was thrown in as an **afterthought** to the game kind of undermines this.

The fact is that the party all finds reasons to live that are completely independent of Kefka and occur outside the context of what he does. Terra finds a reason to live by defending children against Humbaba. Strago finds a reason to live after realizing what Relm means to him. Celes does the same after caring for Cid on that island. Sabin finds a purpose after saving a child from a collapsing building in Tzen. Setzer does after coming to terms with his grief over Darrill and so on and so forth.

a GOOD villain would be the drive behind the heroes finding their purpose, but this isn't the case with Kefka. other than blowing up the world and going on his merry way he does absolutely nothing. Square needed to invent a gaggle of other random villains to drive the character development that Kefka should have been able to do as an antagonist but can't because he's a shit tier villain.
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You're unnecessarily limiting what constitutes a "good" villain. Kefka is metaphorical, the ultimate representation of what the heroes are fighting against. Nihilism, despair in the face of adversity, questioning why we even go on. The heroes all succeed and find reasons to live, and Kefka cannot do that, and never will be.

Just because he isn't personally responsible for every bad thing that happens doesn't make him a poor villain, it means the world exists beyond his scope. If anything him being the one who fucked everyone's lives up would turn the game's world into a small little theatre play. He's a god now, and beforehand was a high ranking general in a planet spanning empire. Does he need to be the one who kills Sabin's master in order to be a proper villain?

Like, he blows up the world and is directly responsible for every bad thing that happens to the characters in the second half of the game so if that's your problem then he did the thing you wanted him to do.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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Aaronrules380 said:
Kefka does have a motivation: After experiencing years of human experimentation he became a nihilistic asshole who couldn't find the meaning of life, and couldn't stand that other people could. His driving motivation is envy, and the idea that if he can't derive meaning or enjoyment in life, even with near unlimited power at his disposal, than NOBODY should be able to.
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i'm sympathetic to this analysis, but again- it's a paper thin motivation that makes no sense in the context of the game. Magitek experimentation is the reason kefka is crazy- but that isn't really explored, we simply have to accept his nihilism on face value. it isn't thought out or explored at all.

He doesn't even take revenge on the actual people who did this to him- not specifically. He does eventually get around to killing gestahl, but it seems like an afterthought. "I'm personally hurt so the world must feel my revenge" is....tiresome. exhausting. juvenile.

Kefka has the unique position of being a villain who achieves his goal, blowing up the world and creating the world of "ruin" but...does nothing with it. just chaos. pointless.

A decent villain as an antagonist would do *something* to drive the plot, and Kefka does not do this. He's simply a deus ex machina that exists as a plot device to blow the world up. A decent villain is someone the audience can *somewhat* symptathize with- justifiable ends but flawed means. Kefka doesn't have that here, both are bad. There is no "Ends" and the "means" are equally terrible. His relationship with most of the cast itself is nonexistent or only coincidental.

Kefka is a typical villain written for the audience FF6 had in the late 90s, which square assumed to be teens and preteens. He doesn't hold up under even the most rudimentary scrutiny.
 
Weiss

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Manmademan said:
i'm sympathetic to this analysis, but again- it's a paper thin motivation that makes no sense in the context of the game. Magitek experimentation is the reason kefka is crazy- but that isn't really explored, we simply have to accept his nihilism on face value. it isn't thought out or explored at all.

He doesn't even take revenge on the actual people who did this to him- not specifically. He does eventually get around to killing gestahl, but it seems like an afterthought.

Kefka has the unique position of being a villain who achieves his goal, blowing up the world and creating the world of "ruin" but...does nothing with it. just chaos. pointless.

A decent villain as an antagonist would do *something* to drive the plot, and Kefka does not do this. He's simply a deus ex machina that exists as a plot device to blow the world up. A decent villain is someone the audience can *somewhat* symptathize with- justifiable ends but flawed means. Kefka doesn't have that here, both are bad. There is no "Ends" and the "means" are equally terrible.

Kefka is a typical villain written for the audience FF6 had in the late 90s, which square assumed to be teens and preteens. He doesn't hold up under even the most rudimentary scrutiny.
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It's important to remember that in 1994 the idea that a villain who pointedly wasn't the Evil Emperor of the Evil Empire was a shocking plot twist, as well as a villain who actually straight up succeeds at blowing up the world.

Besides, the pointless chaos is the point. That's what Kefka thinks the world is, madness and despair and nihilism. He's God now. He's won. The hell is he supposed to do?
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

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Oct 25, 2017
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Manmademan said:
i'm sympathetic to this analysis, but again- it's a paper thin motivation that makes no sense in the context of the game. Magitek experimentation is the reason kefka is crazy- but that isn't really explored, we simply have to accept his nihilism on face value. it isn't thought out or explored at all.

He doesn't even take revenge on the actual people who did this to him- not specifically. He does eventually get around to killing gestahl, but it seems like an afterthought.

Kefka has the unique position of being a villain who achieves his goal, blowing up the world and creating the world of "ruin" but...does nothing with it. just chaos. pointless.

A decent villain as an antagonist would do *something* to drive the plot, and Kefka does not do this. He's simply a deus ex machina that exists as a plot device to blow the world up. A decent villain is someone the audience can *somewhat* symptathize with- justifiable ends but flawed means. Kefka doesn't have that here, both are bad. There is no "Ends" and the "means" are equally terrible.

Kefka is a typical villain written for the audience FF6 had in the late 90s, which square assumed to be teens and preteens. He doesn't hold up under even the most rudimentary scrutiny.
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Because again, his fundemental motivation isn't revenge (because as a nihilist, he doesn't see purpose in that, he doesn't see purpose in anything). It's jealousy, because why should other people, in his view lesser people, be able to find happiness and satisfaction in their lives when he can't? The idea that misery loves company or a number of other similar sayings is as old as time itself. He does nothing but destroy because he CANNOT find meaning in life, because his entire worldview is entirely driven by nihilism. He doesn't have an ends perse because Nihilism by design means he doesn't find meaning in anything that could be an end goal.
 
Manmademan

Manmademan

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Aaronrules380 said:
Because again, his fundemental motivation isn't revenge (because as a nihilist, he doesn't see purpose in that, he doesn't see purpose in anything). It's jealousy, because why should other people, in his view lesser people, be able to find happiness and satisfaction in their lives when he can't? The idea that misery loves company or a number of other similar sayings is as old as time itself. He does nothing but destroy because he CANNOT find meaning in life, because his entire worldview is entirely driven by nihilism. He doesn't have an ends perse because Nihilism by design means he doesn't find meaning in anything that could be an end goal.
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Don't know what to tell you man. As villain writing goes, this is awful and something I would expect out of a C grade anime.

Weiss said:
It's important to remember that in 1994 the idea that a villain who pointedly wasn't the Evil Emperor of the Evil Empire was a shocking plot twist, as well as a villain who actually straight up succeeds at blowing up the world.

Besides, the pointless chaos is the point. That's what Kefka thinks the world is, madness and despair and nihilism. He's God now. He's won. The hell is he supposed to do?
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It's important to remember that this is absolutely not the case. The first book of The Wheel of Time was written in 1990. A game of Thrones was published in 1996. Age of Apocalypse (marvel) was 1995. Even within the context of games, The Seventh Saga (1993) had a villain and a plot a lot more coherent than this. And yes, I played FF6 the day it came out on SNES and was still pissed at how terrible Kefka was. He's a D-list knockoff joker with half the thought put into him.
 
Weiss

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Manmademan said:
Don't know what to tell you man. As villain writing goes, this is awful and something I would expect out of a C grade anime.
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You might need to broaden your perceptions of what constitutes an effective villain when concepts themselves are your problem with Kefka.

What is a good villain to you? How would you write Kefka?

Manmademan said:
It's important to remember that this is absolutely not the case. The first book of The Wheel of Time was written in 1990. A game of Thrones was published in 1996. Even within the context of games, The Seventh Saga (1993) had a villain and a plot a lot more coherent than this.
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I was obviously referring to games with that.

But sure, what makes the 7th Saga's villain good?
 
Manmademan

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Weiss said:
You might need to broaden your perceptions of what constitutes an effective villain when concepts themselves are your problem with Kefka.

What is a good villain to you? How would you write Kefka?
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I made some edits, but consider the following that I consider "good" or at least acceptable villains that existed around the same time and their appropriate storylines-

Apocalypse (Age of Apocalypse)
Gorsia (the 7th Saga- SNES)
The Dark One (wheel of time)
Cersei Lannister (A game of thrones)
Zedar the Apostate (Belgariad)

The above actually have motivations that require examination on the part of the readeror player, and actions that reverberate on an individual as well as global level. Complex, multilayers characters make for good villains. Kefka doesn't get here. He's one dimensional with nonsensical actions and a paper thin motivation. Again, "nihilism! life sucks!" does not a compelling antagonist make.
 
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