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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Yeah, so I finished S5 and was debating making this thread since I figured most everything has been said about the show. But, I'm bored so I figured why not. I should first note that I watched S1 like years ago after it had aired, but I just wasn't in the headspace to continue to watch Jimmy's antics. As a struggling attorney at the time, I couldn't watch Jimmy complaining about his job doing criminal defense work when he at least had a job and was moving up by the end of the season.

But after years of hounding and good press and a better headspace, I finally sat down and binged S2-5. First of all, at the end of S1 I felt poised to hate Chuck for denying Jimmy a place at HHM. He just looked like the typical jealousy brother, upset that Jimmy was no longer the failure of the family. BUT, for me personally, that immediately changed with S2 and I thought it pretty clear from then on that Chuck was right and Jimmy has no place at HHM, and honestly has no business being an attorney. I don't know what the consensus was at the time of airing regarding Chuck, but to me Jimmy "broke bad" the moment he fabricated evidence to get a drug dealer out of police suspicion and then later altered documentary evidence to make his brother look incompetent. After those two incidents, Jimmy was effectively the villain my mind and everything since has just been a continual spiral.

Jimmy exists within this meme:

4772795__e188297988ce060ed77289f0d306731a.jpg


But yeah, all around I enjoy watching Jimmy completely self-destruct himself and everyone around him at every turn. The only "downside" to the show is the Gus and Mike stuff. I honestly find all of that incredibly boring since we effectively know that Gus comes out on top. There is less mystery and thus interest surrounding his ascent than I find with Jimmy/Saul's descent. That said, I only care about the drug cartel bits because my boy Vaas (Michael Mando) playing Nacho.

I thought after S1 his ass would be a small-time character that dies quickly into S2. Yet, here he is still kicking by the end of S5. I'm just so happy Mando has got his come up after seeing how great a performance he did with Vaas in Far Cry 3. I know his ass is almost certainly dead since we never see him in Breaking Bad, yet still I want him to survive. Such a shame, but I guess that comes with "the game," he should've never got into it. Dumbass should've listened to his father.

In short, fuck Jimmy. Fuck Kim. Chuck was right. And Howard is a saint.

I will soon enter S6 and I fully expect Jimmy and Kim to completely fuck up Howard's life because they are such shitty people.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
You know, you could always just post in the OT. We basically had an extended conversation about it like a day ago.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
I always liked your takes BossAttack, and you're keeping the streak alive.

I'm going to miss this show/universe come Tuesday :(
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,478
The greatest thing about this show is that despite the fact we meet him as already a criminal in BB, it still so often manages to make you forget how it will turn bad in the end no matter what that you keep rooting for Jimmy to be good, so much so that we start to see Chuck as the villain.

One of the best examples of making you emphasize with a protagonist.
 
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Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
That's the best part of Chuck's big "I'm not crazy" speech on the stand, he's totally right.

(I haven't watched past that particular season yet)
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
All Howard has ever done is try to be a decent guy. Unfortunately, he tried to be decent to the wrong people.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,178
Sure Chuck was right, but he didn't have to be such a dick about it all the time.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Sure Chuck was right, but he didn't have to be such a dick about it all the time.

If your brother was Jimmy you absolutely would be a dick about it all the time. Honestly, he would've been better off completely cutting contact with Jimmy but it seems he constantly felt he had some responsibility to look after him.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,419
The greatest thing about this show is that despite the fact we meet him as already a criminal in BB, it still so often manages to make you forget how it will turn bad in the end no matter what, and you keep rooting for Jimmy to be good, so much so that we start to see Chuck as the villain.

One of the best examples of making you emphasize with a protagonist.
I think Chuck is a villain, he plots behind Jimmy's back, and doesn't tell the brother who has been helping him through his alleged condition, he's very dishonest and cowardly, and the flashbacks make him look like his actions were influenced by jealously towards Jimmy.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,178
If your brother was Jimmy you absolutely would be a dick about it all the time. Honestly, he would've been better off completely cutting contact with Jimmy but it seems he constantly felt he had some responsibility to look after him.
Chuck was at least 50% directly responsible for Jimmy being the way that he is.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,023
It's interesting because I think you can easily read it as self fulfilling. Would Jimmy have gone down this road to the extent he did if not for people like Chuck in his life that assumed this was always the person Jimmy was going to be? Is it nature or nurture? That's part of the tragedy.

Like, yes, Chuck is right but how much of it is equally on Chuck himself for making Jimmy become this person.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Chuck was at least 50% directly responsible for Jimmy being the way that he is.

How? We see that Jimmy has always been a lying thief since he was a kid. He routinely got in trouble with the law such that Chuck had to bail him out. Chuck got him a job at HHM in the mailroom, likely when he couldn't get a job anywhere else. But, he's responsible for Jimmy continuing to be terrible because he wouldn't let him be an attorney at HHM?

Agreed. Jimmy would have never been a lawyer if it wasn't for Chuck. That's his sin to carry.

Exactly. 😄

It's interesting because I think you can easily read it as self fulfilling. Would Jimmy have gone down this road to the extent he did if not for people like Chuck in his life that assumed this was always the person Jimmy was going to be? Is it nature or nurture? That's part of the tragedy.

Like, yes, Chuck is right but how much of it is equally on Chuck himself for making Jimmy become this person.

Before Jimmy even knew about Chuck stunting him, he was doing unethical shit as an attorney when no one was watching. Y'all really need to stop blaming others for Jimmy's behavior.
 

Sakon

Member
Jul 19, 2019
863
Agreed. I have friends who just see Chuck and think 'oh no Chuck is mean to Jimmy therefore Chuck bad' like wtf?! Saul will always be Slippin' Jimmy. I noticed a similar phenomenon where fans villainize Skyler in Breaking Bad, simply because she goes against the 'protagonist'.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,178
I think Chuck is a villain, he plots behind Jimmy's back, and doesn't tell the brother who has been helping him through his alleged condition, he's very dishonest and cowardly, and the flashbacks make him look like his actions were influenced by jealously towards Jimmy.
This BossAttack . Think about what happened during the death of their mother and what Chuck did there, if you want an example of this.

Jimmy would have ended up in a very different place in life if Chuck had ever shown even a bit of genuine love instead of disdain for Jimmy.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Chuck was a pompous, abusive piece of shit because he considered Law to be sacrosanct. You can see that before Jimmy joined HHM, Chuck had a very good relationship with Jimmy, even when Jimmy was a 2 bit street huckster. As soon as Jimmy joined HHM and obtained the law degree from University of American Samoa (lol) Chuck lost his shit and became a horrible person.

Yes, Jimmy was always Slippin Jimmy but that's because he didn't really care about "Law" and all that. Chuck was right that Jimmy was the one who changed the address for Mesa Verde bank and did all sorts of unethical shit because he didn't care about the law as much as he cared for Kim and Chuck. So what. Jimmy always struggled and always managed to survive, with or without the law. He's right, no one should hold a profession on the pedestal like that.

Also want to add that Jimmy did some bad things too Like reporting to the Law Firm's insurance about Chuck.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
This BossAttack . Think about what happened during the death of their mother and what Chuck did there, if you want an example of this.

Beyond not telling Jimmy that their mother's last words were to call for him, another big blow to Chuck, how exactly does that make him a supreme villain? Chuck tried to tell Jimmy to sit the fuck down and wait, he couldn't handle it and left and their mother passed as he was gone. Another instance of Jimmy refusing to listen.

It's shit of Chuck to not tell Jimmy about her last words, but he's human. And honestly I can see how pissed he would be in that moment.

Chuck was a pompous, abusive piece of shit because he considered Law to be sacrosanct. You can see that before Jimmy joined HHM, Chuck had a very good relationship with Jimmy, even when Jimmy was a 2 bit street huckster. As soon as Jimmy joined HHM and obtained the law degree from University of American Samoa (lol) Chuck lost his shit and became a horrible person.

Yes, Jimmy was always Slippin Jimmy but that's because he didn't really care about "Law" and all that. Chuck was right that Jimmy was the one who changed the address for Mesa Verde bank and did all sorts of unethical shit because he didn't care about the law as much as he cared for Kim and Chuck. So what. Jimmy always struggled and always managed to survive, with or without the law. He's right, no one should hold a profession on the pedestal like that.

Also want to add that Jimmy did some bad things too Like reporting to the Law Firm's insurance about Chuck.

So what? SO WHAT?!

You CANNOT be an unethical lawyer breaking THE FUCKING LAW. That is why Chuck never wanted Jimmy at HHM, it's why he was so pissed at Jimmy becoming a lawyer. He knew what kind of lawyer Jimmy would be and it frightened him, rightfully so.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,430
I stand by my theory that a nicer Chuck = a Jimmy that is more guilty about what he's doing, thus less effective. And Kim doesn't get dragged into it.

Jimmy was always slimy and was going to slide; but Chuck accelerated it.

So yeah, unlike Howard, Chuck sucks. Just not as much as Jimmy.
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,010
This BossAttack . Think about what happened during the death of their mother and what Chuck did there, if you want an example of this.

Jimmy would have ended up in a very different place in life if Chuck had ever shown even a bit of genuine love instead of disdain for Jimmy.
Yup or when Chuck's wife liked that Jimmy was funny and Chuck got jealous and tried to tell a joke to her in bed. Bro had a lot of resentment pent up for Jimmy, who took care of him for years despite his bogus condition
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
I'm mostly shitposting in this thread because I just came out of a very protracted discussion of this very topic in the OT, but my last post on it was a relatively non-shitty post of what I think Chuck is actually responsible for and why Jimmy's actions are his own. I'm pretty sure it has no S6 spoilers.

I don't feel like getting into another lengthy argument with regards to all this stuff, so I'll keep my piece rather short and to the point. (fake edit: I have failed at making it short and to the point)

When I say that Jimmy is psychologically compelled to do this or has this as his fundamental worldview, I'm not trying to make a biological determinist argument. That's silly. I'm trying to point out how deeply Jimmy's scheming is seeded within him, to the point that he genuinely sees the world through a different lens than most other people. This has been proven through the multiple seasons we've seen and is as obvious as it was that Walter White was driven by his ego more than he was driven by a desire to make money or secure his family a future. Those were just the excuses, not something Walt would admit, and they were for a time believable, but you look at his actions and you'll see they don't align with someone who believes that, so you have to go for the alternate explanation that this was a matter of ego. Same thing with Jimmy. He scams when there isn't a need to scam. When he doesn't need money. He justifies it as the natural state of the world and is absolutely mystified and borderline offended when people try to encourage a moral approach that says his scamming is wrong.

This is what Chuck recognized and why Jimmy's backslide was all but inevitable and having seen all I've seen from Jimmy, I can't disagree. The only reason Jimmy even tried was because he wanted validation and that was never going to last forever. On his own, he has no intrinsic motivation or desire to be legitimate, so a version of Jimmy staying on the straight and narrow would be a version where Jimmy feels he let his life slip through the cracks for a moral virtue that he doesn't understand or believe in. I don't know if he'd have ended up as Saul, but a legitimate lawyer was never really in the cards for him and I can't imagine that ending peacefully.



But since a lot of this has been viewed as me trying to absolve Chuck of his affect on Jimmy's life, let's talk about that.

As I said, Jimmy was only chasing Chuck's example because he believed in his brother as the outstanding moral exemplar Chuck presented himself as. That's why he tried so hard to do things 'the right way'. He was given the promise that if he worked hard enough and did the due diligence, he'd eventually make it the way Chuck had. He had expected a leg up from Chuck, which he didn't get, but still that was the promise, it'd be long and hard, but eventually, he'd make it. Now, through the first season, Jimmy managed to get a hold of a million dollars and change and he had it totally untraceable to his person. He gave it back, because it was "the right thing", with Jimmy's own airquotes there because all his instincts were pushing him to just keep it. But he didn't, he did do the right thing, and he basically got nothing out of it. He would follow Chuck's example even when he didn't understand it.

It's also worth acknowledging that in all this time, Jimmy is taking care of Chuck above and beyond. He is spending money to get him food and the things he needs. Jimmy's 'dog eat dog' worldview implies that he is only looking out for himself, and this much isn't true as he is willing to go out of his way to take care of Chuck out of his own personal expense without expecting anything specific back, just the same loyalty and care he gives him.

So then he creates the Sandpiper case and Chuck blocks him from HHM yet again, and this time Jimmy catches onto what Chuck is doing. And he asks him what the hell and Chuck finally comes out with his true opinions on Jimmy. How does he respond? He goes on a scamming bender and then quits law practice. He has to be convinced by Kim that he still has a future in this career. What kind of response is this? Well, in Jimmy's view, with Chuck's pedestal shattered, I think he sees this as him falling victim to a scam. He's went out of his way to do the work, not get paid, get humiliated, etc, all that with because he believed in Chuck's promise and it all turned out to be a sham. The reason that he didn't get in HMM wasn't be cause of all the bullshit Chuck said, it was because Chuck didn't want him.

So, at this point, he renounces Chuck, but he still on some level wants to believe that a path to being a legitimate lawyer is open to him. And he still has Kim. It might be hard to remember now, but Kim was nearly as much of a paragon of legal law practice as Chuck was in those early days. She was less judgemental about Jimmy's scheming, but clearly disapproved and Jimmy kind of took her as a replacement for Chuck in terms of trying to be a lawyer who follows the moral code he sets out. That's why he takes the job at Davis and Main, at Kim's urging, and because he wants to work with her on an equal basis. If you'll recall, this was a significant part of their conflict from season 2 through season 4.

But the damage Chuck did is now irreversible and Jimmy has no compunctions about scamming to get his way. He will not be held back because of some bullshit morality that is clearly just meant to keep him down. Besides, what Jimmy does is harmless. He creates some confusion, he tells a few white lies, but no one is actually hurt, so what the fuck is everyone's problem with him doing this stuff? Eventually, Jimmy decides Kim decides that she deserves Mesa Verde as a client, so he creates the Chuck scam. And while Chuck was disapproving of Jimmy scamming others, he's infuriated at Jimmy scamming him, so he escalates. And here is where Jimmy's internal worldview is revealed - he has NO problem scamming others and getting the leg up on them, and he sees as what he does as harmless. He forces Chuck into a humiliating situation where he makes a mistake, and for Jimmy, that's nothing, just a mistake where he'd be able to "move on with his life, like a normal person". But when Chuck retaliates, Jimmy's enraged, to the point where he makes unnecessary errors and falls into another, greater trap by Chuck. Now, I want to make a distinction here because I actually agree with Jimmy that while Chuck will take his sabotage as some great crime, it's just a minor mistake that loses him money that he doesn't need, while Chuck trying to get Jimmy disbarred is a far more damaging move, it's worth noting that Jimmy never really brings it up in those terms. It's not that Jimmy is upset Chuck reacted so disproportionately, it's that he's upset that he scammed him at all. He hates being on the receiving end of a trick than the trick itself.

Regardless, this turn pushes Jimmy in more and more vindictive and cruel schemes. Meanwhile, Kim, his totem, is beyond pushed along with him. Kim believes in the law, but she also has fun with Jimmy and loves him and is willing let things slide, especially when it comes to protecting him. Even in the latest episode, after everything, she will cover for Jimmy. Jimmy is left to foster his own client base, full of criminals, so he progressively slides deeper and deeper into shady shit. Jimmy isn't trying to become a criminal lawyer, but it's what works for him the best. As he's doing this, he still dreams of legitimacy, being kind of lawyer that can stand on equal ground with Howard, Rich Sweikart, and, yes, Chuck. On a deep level that Jimmy can't acknowledge, he wants to prove them wrong, and that he has to do this shady stuff, it's either actually okay and they're too proud to admit it, or else it's a temporary setback, and he'll make his way with legitimate clientele eventually.

Which of course does not happen. The feud with Chuck escalates and Jimmy eventually wins. And then some time passes where Jimmy wants nothing to do with Chuck, but eventually, he hits a point where, yes, he wants to reconcile with his bother, so he stops by his house to make some amends...but Chuck isn't interested. He still sees Jimmy as nothing but the enemy. He tells him he never cared that much about him. And thats the last thing he says to Jimmy before he dies. From there, there's all the fall out of Chuck's death and Jimmy trying to process it, with it ending in Jimmy remembering Chuck only in terms of painful spite. He doesn't want to talk about Chuck, he doesn't want his name brought up, he only sees Chuck's legacy as what he can profit off of.

Because caring about Chuck is a sucker's game. He did all the work of trying to be the good brother, and all it ever got him was humiliated, his career set back, being moralized to, and finding out all his efforts were in waste. The only real family he had was Kim, who supports him, encourages him, loves him. And she joins him when he has a good scam idea, because she gets him. He thinks together, they're unstoppable, and they can only go up. And he keeps thinking that right up to the point where she leaves him.

That's what I think Chuck is responsible for in Jimmy's life. Jimmy was always pre-disposed to scamming and has a fundamental con-man's worldview that sees people trusting him as a reason to abuse that trust in him. However, Chuck's and Kim's and even Howards examples showed him there was more to the world than that, and Jimmy craved being a part of that world. I personally believe Jimmy would always scheme, but he would always do os with restraint, with some understanding and concern for the consequences of his actions. At the end of season 3, he schemed into getting Irene Landry to settle, but he couldn't ignore how he destroyed Irenes circle of friends, so he reversed it, destroying his entire clientele of elderly people to fix it.

This is what Chuck is responsible for in Jimmy's life. Jimmy was always going to be scheme because, for lack of a better word, that is his lifestyle. He loves doing it, it rewards him, and he can't live his life otherwise without being miserable. But he also cared about people. He would fuck with their lives if he got something out of it....but he would also try to make amends if he felt bad enough about it. I want to make it clear this is itself is limited as a redeeming element of Jimmy's character: it relied on Jimmy actually being close and personal enough with his victims to have a connection with them, he'd have just moved on if Irene wasn't someone he had to see again, and it doesn't work if he can't make up what was lost (like howards death).

But it was where the core of his human compassion was. He felt guilt sometimes. He had a small group he considered off limits to scamming. He was occasionally willing to do reparations. He cared. Chuck's cruelty and manipulativeness taught him caring was for suckers. That's what he's responsible for, abusing Jimmy's trust and love for him to the point where it hampered his ability to feel empathy for his victims. It does not make Jimmy any less responsible for his own actions, but he did damage Jimmy. That's what he's responsible for.



No, on this part, I agree. Mesa Verde can take the hit without so much as tightening their belts. It is never unethical to cost rich people money.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,023
Before Jimmy even knew about Chuck stunting him, he was doing unethical shit as an attorney when no one was watching. Y'all really need to stop blaming others for Jimmy's behavior.

I'm trying to get at that it's not this or the other. Maybe Jimmy McGill is innately Slippin' Jimmy, but I think the show is trying to play in this space that it was just as much the environment/nurture of his upbringing having someone like Chuck as a brother, and I mean that before even his time as attorney or even as the mailman in the HHM mailroom.

I don't think it's personally worth trying to draw a line on that spectrum but I do think the show wants to interrogate that space.
 

Radd Redd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,999
Chuck pushed Jimmy to become Saul Goodman. Jimmy actually was turning his life around after getting the senior citizens a voice and some justice. Was he a saint? No, was he helping the old folks getting some justice when HHM really only cared about the long game and the money. Unlike HHM, Jimmy cared about the little guys and wanted to do right by them. HHM and Chuck pushed him out constantly. Eventually bringing about Saul Goodman.

If Charles was a better brother Saul Goodman wouldn't exist but Jimmy the lawyer would.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Chuck pushed Jimmy to become Saul Goodman. Jimmy actually was turning his life around after getting the senior citizens a voice and some justice. Was he a saint? No, was he helping the old folks getting some justice when HHM really only cared about the long game and the money. Unlike HHM, Jimmy cared about the little guys and wanted to do right by them. HHM and Chuck pushed him out constantly. Eventually bringing about Saul Goodman.

If Charles was a better brother Saul Goodman wouldn't exist but Jimmy the lawyer would.

This is really underselling Jimmy. He got to senior citizen voice by being completely unethical. And HHM didn't just care about the "money," they were doing right by their clients. It's Jimmy that wants the money to the point that even he, in a rare moment of self-reflection, realizes he has to make things right. Jimmy was constantly being Slippin Jimmy, and that's why Chuck didn't want him at HHM.

We literally see exactly what would've happened had Jimmy been made an attorney at HHM when he joins that other big law firm. He completely self-destructs until he is fired because he has to do things "his way" ie COMPLETELY FUCKING UNETHICAL AND ILLEGAL AND WITH ZERO OVERSIGHT.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,954
Chuck being "right" or not is such a reductive way to engage with his character, and his relationship with Saul in the show.

Chuck was a petty, bitter, jealous, condescending older brother that exploited his younger brother even as Saul assisted him with his incapacity. We the viewer know Chuck is "right" about Saul because we know what he is in Breaking Bad. That's useless information to us. What matters is how this dynamic characterizes both men, and how the drama unfolds therein.

And Chuck himself didn't care at all about Saul doing things "the right way." Chuck was fully content relegating his brother to be a mail room jockey, safely cordoned away from what Chuck deemed to be real work with real stakes. His malice and pride could never bear to see his younger brother actually achieve a station with responsibility in life - sure on some level because of past experience with his brother's mischief. But most importantly because he did not want to view Saul as a peer in any respect, and that is shown frequently throughout BCS.

Trying to align Chuck's indignation with moral righteousness cheapens everything that makes their relationship fascinating. Chuck is the perfect foil for Saul because Chuck is personifies the forces which Saul believes he is fighting to overcome. Chuck characterizes Slippin Jimmy as a lazy short cutter, but Saul is anything but. He circumvents ethics and bends laws of course, but he goes above and beyond in his schemes with preparation and deployment of knowledge to achieve advantages against obstacles in front of him. Saul, same as any of the high powered lawyers at HHM including Chuck and Howard, wants to win. To be validated. Only he would have the force of will to reconstruct hundreds of shredded documents in order to give HHM the meat for the Sandpiper case, which HHM graciously accepts.

Saul is resourceful, intelligent, and able to read/manipulate people in a way Chuck can only jealously fear, and they are all constituent parts in a good lawyer. And that is what makes the destruction in Saul's wake that much more tragic: all the characters react to his almost unstoppable force of character in different ways. Howard and Kim see his talent and want to cultivate it, Chuck sees it and wants to crush it underfoot.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Chuck being "right" or not is such a reductive way to engage with his character, and his relationship with Saul in the show.

Chuck was a petty, bitter, jealous, condescending older brother that exploited his younger brother even as Saul assisted him with his incapacity. We the viewer know Chuck is "right" about Saul because we know what he is in Breaking Bad. That's useless information to us. What matters is how this dynamic characterizes both men, and how the drama unfolds therein.

And Chuck himself didn't care at all about Saul doing things "the right way." Chuck was fully content relegating his brother to be a mail room jockey, safely cordoned away from what Chuck deemed to be real work with real stakes. His malice and pride could never bear to see his younger brother actually achieve a station with responsibility in life - sure on some level because of past experience with his brother's mischief. But most importantly because he did not want to view Saul as a peer in any respect, and that is shown frequently throughout BCS.

Trying to align Chuck's indignation with moral righteousness cheapens everything that makes their relationship fascinating. Chuck is the perfect foil for Saul because Chuck is personifies the forces which Saul believes he is fighting to overcome. Chuck characterizes Slippin Jimmy as a lazy short cutter, but Saul is anything but. He circumvents ethics and bends laws of course, but he goes above and beyond in his schemes with preparation and deployment of knowledge to achieve advantages against obstacles in front of him. Saul, same as any of the high powered lawyers at HHM including Chuck and Howard, wants to win. To be validated. Only he would have the force of will to reconstruct hundreds of shredded documents in order to give HHM the meat for the Sandpiper case, which HHM graciously accepts.

Saul is resourceful, intelligent, and able to read/manipulate people in a way Chuck can only jealously fear, and they are all constituent parts in a good lawyer. And that is what makes the destruction in Saul's wake that much more tragic: all the characters react to his almost unstoppable force of character in different ways. Howard and Kim see his talent and want to cultivate it, Chuck sees it and wants to crush it underfoot.
Agreed, but small correction: Chuck is the one who reconstructs the shredded documents. Jimmy fell asleep out of exhaustion and Chuck compulsively did it for him. He's also the one who spotted the detail that makes it a RICO case, which Jimmy may have missed.

Which is another reason why Chuck is apprehensive of Jimmy. For all the ways he derides him, I think he acknowledges that he is as equally capable as himself.
 
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BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Chuck being "right" or not is such a reductive way to engage with his character, and his relationship with Saul in the show.

Chuck was a petty, bitter, jealous, condescending older brother that exploited his younger brother even as Saul assisted him with his incapacity. We the viewer know Chuck is "right" about Saul because we know what he is in Breaking Bad. That's useless information to us. What matters is how this dynamic characterizes both men, and how the drama unfolds therein.

And Chuck himself didn't care at all about Saul doing things "the right way." Chuck was fully content relegating his brother to be a mail room jockey, safely cordoned away from what Chuck deemed to be real work with real stakes. His malice and pride could never bear to see his younger brother actually achieve a station with responsibility in life - sure on some level because of past experience with his brother's mischief. But most importantly because he did not want to view Saul as a peer in any respect, and that is shown frequently throughout BCS.

Trying to align Chuck's indignation with moral righteousness cheapens everything that makes their relationship fascinating. Chuck is the perfect foil for Saul because Chuck is personifies the forces which Saul believes he is fighting to overcome. Chuck characterizes Slippin Jimmy as a lazy short cutter, but Saul is anything but. He circumvents ethics and bends laws of course, but he goes above and beyond in his schemes with preparation and deployment of knowledge to achieve advantages against obstacles in front of him. Saul, same as any of the high powered lawyers at HHM including Chuck and Howard, wants to win. To be validated. Only he would have the force of will to reconstruct hundreds of shredded documents in order to give HHM the meat for the Sandpiper case, which HHM graciously accepts.

Saul is resourceful, intelligent, and able to read/manipulate people in a way Chuck can only jealously fear, and they are all constituent parts in a good lawyer. And that is what makes the destruction in Saul's wake that much more tragic: all the characters react to his almost unstoppable force of character in different ways. Howard and Kim see his talent and want to cultivate it, Chuck sees it and wants to crush it underfoot.

The issue is that the series lends itself to Jimmy's perspective, yet you need to look at Chuck's perspective which if often voices; especially when he tried to warn Kim. Jimmy has been a lying, cheating, thief since he was a small child. But because he is good with people, no one ever believed Chuck when he tried to tell people about Jimmy's behavior, especially their parents. Jimmy is "too good" to be doing that kind of stuff. And even if he did, "he's such a nice boy, I'm sure he won't do it again." Jimmy would go one to steal about $14k from his father's business (according to Chuck) and blow it all, leaving his father's business to die.

By the time Chuck is an attorney, Jimmy is constantly getting in trouble with the law; always running scams. And Chuck has to be the "older brother" and bail him out. This is despite the fact that Jimmy is a grown ass man. Despite all these failings, and the inner knowledge that his parents (at least his mother) liked Jimmy more, Chuck still helps out Jimmy and gets him a job at HHM to keep him out of trouble. And then Jimmy, after seeing all the respect that Chuck gets as an attorney, finally decides to try and aim a little higher and goes to law school, in secret, and passes the bar.

Now look at this from Chuck's perspective. There is nothing to suggest that Slippin' Jimmy has reformed. And now Slippin' Jimmy has now obtained something with even more danger to everyone, a law degree. He knows what Jimmy has done. He knows how he is with people. He knows how far he can go with his scams. And he knows (or at least believes) Jimmy has no respect for the actual law. Why on God's green earth would you want Jimmy at HHM? Why wouldn't you be absolutely terrified at the idea of Jimmy McGill, Esquire?

And through the series we see that Chuck's fears were right, even before Jimmy learns the truth, Jimmy acts unethically as an attorney. He will use his people skills to try and solicit his services as an attorney to old people, which is against the rules. He will cut whatever deal he can for his clients, not because it is really good for them but because it is good for him. He will break any rule that is in his way when he has a target in mind.

How exactly could Chuck have ever prevented Jimmy from being the way that he is? I think having Kaiden Alenko as a father was what really fucked him up.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Beyond not telling Jimmy that their mother's last words were to call for him, another big blow to Chuck, how exactly does that make him a supreme villain? Chuck tried to tell Jimmy to sit the fuck down and wait, he couldn't handle it and left and their mother passed as he was gone. Another instance of Jimmy refusing to listen.

It's shit of Chuck to not tell Jimmy about her last words, but he's human. And honestly I can see how pissed he would be in that moment.



So what? SO WHAT?!

You CANNOT be an unethical lawyer breaking THE FUCKING LAW. That is why Chuck never wanted Jimmy at HHM, it's why he was so pissed at Jimmy becoming a lawyer. He knew what kind of lawyer Jimmy would be and it frightened him, rightfully so.
You can make an argument that Chuck was wildly unethical as well, including his bogus condition. He continually tried to ratfuck Jimmy.

I dont put much stock into "Law" especially if it favors the rich or gets in the way of humanity, and I guess I see that side in Jimmy too. Mesa Verde can get fucked.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,537
Even though Chuck is way, way more of an asshole than Skylar ever was, these takes that Chuck is responsible for Jimmy always gives me big "Well Skylar is just as bad/even worse!!" vibes.
 
Aug 7, 2019
1,378
Jimmy started the series trying to train a new generation of con-men for no good reason, before anything went down

It's also heavily implied he was the bad influence on Marco, and might be why Marco died with no friends besides him

and honestly, him not committing Chuck was a selfish move on his part because on some level it's obvious Jimmy liked having Chuck dependent on him
 

Lord Couture

Member
Nov 13, 2017
81
First, you are wrong about not caring about Lalo!

Now, as to Chuck vs Jimmy, this is Chuck's last word to Jimmy:

"In the end, you're going to hurt everyone around you. You can't help it. So stop apologizing and accept it. Embrace it. Frankly, I'd have more respect for you if you did. You don't have to make up with me. We don't have to understand each other. Things are fine the way they are. I don't want to hurt your feelings, but the truth is, you've never mattered all that much to me"

Of course Jimmy is ultimately responsible for becoming Saul Goodman, but you are lying to yourself if you think Chuck had nothing to do with that.

Jimmy would go one to steal about $14k from his father's business (according to Chuck) and blow it all, leaving his father's business to die.

It's very very unlikely that Jimmy stole $14k from his father's business. Jimmy was like 12 or 13 years old at the time, there's no way a kid that young can steal that much money without anyone noticing.

Chuck saw that the company was $14k short of money when it failed, so Chuck assumed that Jimmy took it all. We have no confirmation as to where that money went, but the show went through telling us that Mr. McGill was a naive guy who always gave money to strangers, which heavily suggests that this is where most of that money went.

Now look at this from Chuck's perspective. There is nothing to suggest that Slippin' Jimmy has reformed. And now Slippin' Jimmy has now obtained something with even more danger to everyone, a law degree. He knows what Jimmy has done. He knows how he is with people. He knows how far he can go with his scams. And he knows (or at least believes) Jimmy has no respect for the actual law. Why on God's green earth would you want Jimmy at HHM? Why wouldn't you be absolutely terrified at the idea of Jimmy McGill, Esquire?

Chuck was under no obligation to hire Jimmy at HMM (it was also very shit to put Howard in this position), but he could at the very least be honest about it to Jimmy. He could also have given him more tools to succeed and better advice.

I don't think there was a scenario where Jimmy became 100% honest and worked well with any of the established law firms. We've seen how D&M went down, but Jimmy having his own elder law practice could've worked well if it'd been allowed to thrive and there hadn't been this whole context of Jimmy seeing Chuck as an antagonistic figure that has to be thwarted.
 
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OP
OP
BossAttack

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
You can make an argument that Chuck was wildly unethical as well, including his bogus condition. He continually tried to ratfuck Jimmy.

I dont put much stock into "Law" especially if it favors the rich or gets in the way of humanity, and I guess I see that side in Jimmy too. Mesa Verde can get fucked.

Chuck never practiced the law unethically, his condition was not "bogus" he had a mental condition. The fact that he didn't view himself as mentally ill doesn't mean he wasn't mentally ill. And saying that you don't put much stock into "the law" is funny when it is the rich people doing exactly that which allows things to be shit. There's a reason attorneys are held to professional standards and have to take an oath. And there is a reason you don't fucking want Rudy Giuliani to continue to practice the law and are able to strip them of their license.

As far as Mesa Verde, am a big ol' lefty socialist. But I saw nothing wrong with Mesa Verde, they did nothing unethical. The only slight thing is Kevin's father possibly not properly crediting and paying for the photo taken that was used as the symbol of the company. Everything else was fair. Mr. Acker can go fuck himself and his shit ass house.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
It's very very unlikely that Jimmy stole $14k from his father's business. Jimmy was like 12 or 13 years old at the time, there's no way a kid that young can steal that much money without anyone noticing.
He didn't steal it all at once, he did it over the course of the several years he worked at the store.
 

SecondNature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,154
User Warned: Posting Unmarked Spoilers
Youre right OP.
Seeing what happened to Howard cemented it for me, and I take pleasure in knowing both Jimmy and Kim are miserable af
 
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Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
chuck was right about jimmy

thats the best thing i can say about him.

he is still a jelous piece of shit of his fucking little brother
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,943
I'm still super interested in the show but man was the loss of Chuck a major loss to the show. He was the best, most interesting character by a leap and a half and it just wasn't quite the same after it. Jimmy isn't anywhere near as compelling to me without his brother to bounce off of.

And yeah, Chuck was always right. That's the dramatic irony of the whole thing. We know Chuck is right, but since he approaches everything like an absolute asshole, bullying, even envious older brother, and Jimmy is the protagonist, we want to take sides here, not altogether different than people siding with Walt over Skylar (though the latter carries with it other connotations).

Any impediment to the protagonist is met with backlash because it's an impediment to the protagonist, and we want to see them succeed. We know exactly where Jimmy ends up and we somehow still hate Chuck for rightfully calling him out on it, perhaps blaming Chuck for everything even as the show takes pains to show that Jimmy was always what he is.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,194
Youre right OP.
Seeing what happened to Howard cemented it for me, and I take pleasure in knowing both Jimmy and Kim are miserable af
Chuck's campaign against Jimmy is what drew Howard into "the game" to begin with. And for what? Why couldn't Chuck tell Jimmy he didn't want to work with him himself? He did that twice, the second time trying to cut Jimmy out of money he knew Jimmy needed.

And what choice did Howard have? He had to be Chuck's errand boy hitman, Chuck was holding the firm hostage and wasn't afraid to remind him.

Like I said in the other thread, it's a great sibling fight. You can absolutely see both sides. Chuck was right, but he played a pivotal role in Jimmy turning Saul.
 
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The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,086
To quote myself:

Putting aside whether or not Jimmy would have done better if Chuck had trusted him, let's just take it that Jimmy was always going to become Saul:

That still doesn't justify the shit Chuck pulled constantly sabotaging Jimmy and pinning it on others so he could continue to benefit from Jimmy's good will.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Chuck never practiced the law unethically, his condition was not "bogus" he had a mental condition. The fact that he didn't view himself as mentally ill doesn't mean he wasn't mentally ill. And saying that you don't put much stock into "the law" is funny when it is the rich people doing exactly that which allows things to be shit. There's a reason attorneys are held to professional standards and have to take an oath. And there is a reason you don't fucking want Rudy Giuliani to continue to practice the law and are able to strip them of their license.

As far as Mesa Verde, am a big ol' lefty socialist. But I saw nothing wrong with Mesa Verde, they did nothing unethical. The only slight thing is Kevin's father possibly not properly crediting and paying for the photo taken that was used as the symbol of the company. Everything else was fair. Mr. Acker can go fuck himself and his shit ass house.
I understand your point the law is a necessary evil but your fundamentally wrong about the law and rich people. The law was designed by rich people to defend their assets and their persons that is historical fact. To get the best lawyers requires money, to fight a long trial requires money lots of it. Not a single fucking part of this is designed to aid a poor person versus a rich one. That's not to say it doesn't help people doing worse economically but the "law" is simply a mirror of influential law markers vision of the country past and present. That's why in America and other similar countries Black people fill those prisons to the brim, poor people fill those prisons to brim, rich people rarely go to prison at best they get fined.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
I mean Chuck was right. So was Howard. Jimmy and Kim are the antagonists of the show.

Chuck may have been a bit rude but you have to remember that Jimmy isn't exactly a reliable narrator, he's a lying cheating conman and it's heavily implied that he was like this apart from his family upbringing since his father was apparently quite nice and overly generous and honest at his store, Chuck was clearly an extremely fastidious and ethical lawyer, and I doubt their mom was some kind of cheating hustler.

It's hard to say whether or not what Chuck did to him was even that underhanded or if it was just framed that way based on Jimmy's understanding and interpretation of the events, which seems far more likely to be the case having re-watched it recently. Jimmy assumes everything is being done to sabotage him, and I think that is partially the case but not to the extent that he accuses Chuck of doing.

Chuck never hated Jimmy, he hated that Jimmy could perverse the law because he knew it was in his nature to swindle. That flashback where Chuck bailed him out and wanted him to stay right and then when they celebrated at the bar together I think was a genuine glimpse into what their relationship really was and would have continued to be, had Jimmy not passed the Bar and been so prone to being Slippin' Jimmy at his core.

He really wasn't even premature in assuming that that's how Jimmy would act considering the fact that he went back to his hustling lifestyle when he visited his friend Marco and he clearly still had a taste for it.
 

Eferim

Member
May 20, 2019
252
My sister and I were discussing this show and she told me how much she empathizes with and relates to Jimmy. I tried telling her how shitty of a brother Jimmy was, not that Chuck was an angel by any means, and she just says straight up that she would have done the same thing to Chuck that Jimmy did if it was her.

I was just like "...Oh". Kinda upsetting thing to say to your brother lmao.
 

C J P

Member
Jul 28, 2020
1,301
London
Said this in the OT but am kind of a woolly centrist on the Chuck Was Right of it all.

Was he always gonna become that guy? Maybe! He loves scamming, prefers to take shortcuts wherever possible and seems to use it as a kind of coping mechanism. Did his brother, who he idolised and strained every sinew to look after, unilaterally decide he wasn't capable of change? Also yes - and it feels telling that Jimmy finds out about the HHM door slam at a moment where he's started trying to do the right thing and it has actually started to pay off (Sandpiper case is mega, and acquired mostly righteously IIRC?). Did Jimmy deserve a nepotism speedrun job at a prestigious law firm? Not really, and when he actually gets one at Davis & Main he immediately starts cutting corners. Did Chuck get disproportionate shit because Jimmy is likeable, appealing etc and he absolutely isn't? For sure.

Ultimately I guess I don't think he became that guy because his brother was mean to him or because he was innately shitty, I think it was probably a little of column A, a little of Column B, and some other stuff that went really badly wrong along the way.

And yeah, the Gus and Mike stuff is not nearly as compelling as the Jimmy/Kim stuff; Lalo and Nacho have fully saved that half of the show.
 
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Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
But he was terrible also. And I just can't say he was right or that he is a better person. Jimmy always loved chuck and assumed chuck loved him back. Chuck looks at him and tells him he never cared about him.

That's fucking low.

The McGills were bad dudes.