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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
it was a great book in high school. Learned to love Big Brother from it.

I need to get to Brave New World at some point since I know that's a similar but different work
The problem with Brave New World is that it's a terribly written book. It became like a meme to say that it was more prophetic than 1984 (and like I donno, there is some truth to that but they are different books that deal with different issues) but I found the book itself to be quite a trudge to go through.
Like I'm not the world greatest 1984 fan but it's a very well written book.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,352
Not necessarily disagreeing, but isn't the bolded basically what Brave New World was getting at?

Neil Postman was saying we were already living in a Huxleyverse way back in the 1980s. His excellent non-fiction, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business, should be required reading (I read it as a freshman in college/uni). Postman was pretty clearly ahead of his time and one of the first writers sounding alarm bells about the potential negative consequences of technology, particularly when it comes to fostering an informed and engaged citizenry. His central thesis is that Huxley was the one who was correct, not Orwell. He wrote this back in 1985, so Orwell/1984 were very much a hot topic at the time:

"Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity, and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacity to think.

"What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared that truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared that we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture [...]"

Some real Metal Gear Solid 2 shit. I think about Postman a lot these days and would be curious to hear his thoughts, were he still alive. Books are absolutely being banned, which should be chilling and terrifying for all of us.

Either way, everyone should read all of those books, then read Postman. Much of his analysis still holds up nearly 40 years later.
Beween Orwell and Huxley, Huxley definitely was more accurate in his predictions. I think Bradbury goes one step further in being "mechanically" correct. I.e. people willingly blinding themselves with mass media without the need for government mandated drugs or controls, the people mandating the destruction of books to save them from "scary ideas" (like the recent banning of Maus...).

I think they're all incredibly important works which should be read by everybody. While 1984 may not be the work which most closely resembles our current world, I think it is by far the best story out of the three.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,644
Beween Orwell and Huxley, Huxley definitely was more accurate in his predictions. I think Bradbury goes one step further in being "mechanically" correct. I.e. people willingly blinding themselves with mass media without the need for government mandated drugs or controls, the people mandating the destruction of books to save them from "scary ideas" (like the recent banning of Maus...).

I think they're all incredibly important works which should be read by everybody. While 1984 may not be the work which most closely resembles our current world, I think it is by far the best story out of the three.
I think that really depends on the country you are looking at.

China today, for example, looks much more like 1984 than what I hear of Brave New World. Sometimes I feel the CCP uses 1984 as some sort of guide book.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,047
Does Winston unambiguously die?
I thought he bought I to the lie? Then they wouldn't have to kill him?

Anyways haven't read it in a long time but I will always see power as a boot stepping on the world for no other reason than because it can forever now.

He does not die. He's alive and brainwashed at the end of the story.

He relented but they will still execute him after the events in the book. They don't kill them until they've been reformed. There is no bargaining, just a way to make it stop quicker.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,193
It's been ages since I read it, but the Soviet novel We is a large part of the inspiration for 1984 and great as well.

en.m.wikipedia.org

We (novel) - Wikipedia

I read We before 1984 and was impacted more by it.
The Veldt is also an extremely disturbing story that's barely discussed today. My HS was incredible in forcing us to read very thought provoking disturbing novels, including The Painted Bird.
I'm unsure what the reading lists of red state high schools are currently.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,128
i read it pretty late in life (most people read it in high school or college, i was about 25 or something). i wasn't going into it as a yokel, i knew why the book was so important but i thought it'd be after-the-fact in a post 9/11 world

but no still even then it kinda shook me to the core
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I read We before 1984 and was impacted more by it.
The Veldt is also an extremely disturbing story that's barely discussed today. My HS was incredible in forcing us to read very thought provoking disturbing novels, including The Painted Bird.
I'm unsure what the reading lists of red state high schools are currently.

The Veldt is pretty amazing for such a short story.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,097
The part that has always stuck in my mind, and which applies pretty much daily, is when the party official is giving a fiery speech sometime in the second half about the war, and someone comes up and slips him a piece of paper or whispers in his ear, and he seamlessly switches which country it is that he's railing against.
 

Zampano

The Fallen
Dec 3, 2017
2,234
Mate you're not supposed to actually read it. You're only supposed to say that things you don't like are just like it.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,526
Read 1984 only like 4 years ago. Such books were not really part of the Curriculum of my teachers. Pretty shocked about the ending and later shocked when is saw parallels to the real life.


I'm unsure what the reading lists of red state high schools are currently.
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Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,127
Chile
Not necessarily disagreeing, but isn't the bolded basically what Brave New World was getting at?

Neil Postman was saying we were already living in a Huxleyverse way back in the 1980s. His excellent non-fiction, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business, should be required reading (I read it as a freshman in college/uni). Postman was pretty clearly ahead of his time and one of the first writers sounding alarm bells about the potential negative consequences of technology, particularly when it comes to fostering an informed and engaged citizenry. His central thesis is that Huxley was the one who was correct, not Orwell. He wrote this back in 1985, so Orwell/1984 were very much a hot topic at the time:

"Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity, and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacity to think.

"What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared that truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared that we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture [...]"

Some real Metal Gear Solid 2 shit. I think about Postman a lot these days and would be curious to hear his thoughts, were he still alive. Books are absolutely being banned, which should be chilling and terrifying for all of us.

Either way, everyone should read all of those books, then read Postman. Much of his analysis still holds up nearly 40 years later.

It's pretty interesting how some people discuss in a one or another way, when it's both dystopias that are very, worryingly, familiar in many different reasons.

1984 is my favorite book. The read of Goldstein book is so good
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
I think that really depends on the country you are looking at.

China today, for example, looks much more like 1984 than what I hear of Brave New World. Sometimes I feel the CCP uses 1984 as some sort of guide book.

You don't need to look at China. There are plenty of parallels in the US. You can't tell me that Sean Hannity's programs aren't basically two minutes hate. That conservative media doesn't act as the Ministry of Truth. And that January 6th isn't a prime example of doublethink for conservatives.
 

Kamek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976
I recently re read this (one month ago) and everything is so spot on to the current day. I just kept thinking of the GOP and how they use this double think so effectively - and then have the gall to call to attempt to use Orwellian.

Fox News uses the two minutes hate essentially every night from 7-11.

The main thing is the double think. Seeing how the GOP preys on the vulnerable and those who aren't in the position to really think and understand what's going on in the world, either because they're worried about their next pay check, don't have the education (self or school) to understand, or are just numbed by the constant stream of stimuli ( a la pornosec) - easily consumable music, tv, socials etc.
 

WildGoose

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,219
Read it as a teenager and it's never left me. Probably the only book I'll never forget. Every so often the "We are the dead" "You are the dead" bit pops into my head and I'm just like... fuuuuck. It's just totally unrelentingly grim. A terrifying book, that only gets more terrifying the longer I'm alive.

I didn't really like the film version with John Hurt. I thought the room 101 scene was nowhere near as horrifying as the way it's described in the book.
 

Kamek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976
No, he's reformed and will be executed at some indeterminate point in the future. And he will die in "peace" since his mind is now perfected.
I always thought that to be the case, but then I re read it last month and in the last page he sees the bullet go through his head. I just looked it up online - and it seems like some see it as metaphorical and some literal.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,644
I always thought that to be the case, but then I re read it last month and in the last page he sees the bullet go through his head. I just looked it up online - and it seems like some see it as metaphorical and some literal.
I think it's pretty clear he's shot at the end.

I vaguely remember O'Brien even saying something to the effect "only after you are completely 'healed' of wrongthink, we will kill you".
 

Kamek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976
I think it's pretty clear he's shot at the end.

I vaguely remember O'Brien even saying something to the effect "only after you are completely 'healed' of wrongthink, we will kill you".

And that was my interpretation as well in my recent reading a month ago. I remember being surprised I didn't remember the bullet. I had the metaphorical interpretation in my highschool reading, perhaps from school, many moons ago. It seems like even in this thread it's pretty divided.
 

osnameless

Member
Jan 13, 2018
1,928
I don't know if it speaks more to Orwell's daftness as a writer, or to people being people.

But it is amusing to me how people on the right use 1984 as a weapon to attack the left, and how people on the left use 1984 as a weapon to attack the right.

Like, they both interpret it their own way, and accuse the other side of dragging us down to a Big Brother world.

Both sides also cite his article Politics and the English Language.

On the topic, I am of the idea that A Brave New World is more poignant.

Please read Amusing Ourselves to Death. It is, in large, a reading of the two.