Lost in Translation (2003) - Racist?

[swimming]

anyone else find this film racist and cringe-worthy in terms of dialogue? aged pretty poorly imo
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edit: sorry, i swear i've seen threads in the past open w/ one liners + low general effort and i just wanted to start the conversation bc ppl on this site are generally smarter than me. also thought i didn't need to provide examples bc if you acutally watched the movie you would know what i'm referring to bc it's that on the nose. kinda shocked people are so dismissive and adamant that it wasn't though but i'll try and provide more examples of orientalism / racism that i thought were present throughout:

1) dialogue w the constant switching of L's / R's - they probably make nods to this like 7 separate times? loger moore, lat pack, brack toe, lip stockings, fright, etc - idk i just find this type of shit juvenile and felt it aged poorly
2) the movie fails to actually give character or flesh out any of the japanese characters in this - they are more so used as a vehicle or backdrop for bob and charlotte and they're more often viewed in a lens of inferiority opposed to actual appreciation
3) felt a lot of the attitudes towards the japanese were disrespectful - a lot of the scenes just gave me a general sense of american superiority and rubbed me the wrong way. i can't really pinpoint to anything specific bc it's sprinkled throughout but it really just felt disrespectful of the culture.

there was a lot i liked about the film, namely the themes of existentialism and the tones of melancholy romance but yeah i walked away conflicted

and this article was linked later down the thread but is a good read that echoes many of my sentiments:

'Lost In Translation' Is An Insufferable, Racist Mess — Why Would We Expect 'The Beguiled' To Be Any Different?

The last time Sofia Coppola focused on racial differences, it was a disaster

www.mtv.com

also supplementary viewing:

 

[Fevaweva]

Hard disagree. I actually think it celebrates Japan and Japanese culture from an outsider perspective pretty well.

The only thing that is a bit rough is an off-colour comment Bill Murray's character says, but it is very inkeeping since he is supposed to be a bit of a jaded shit

 

[Deleted member 8468]

It's been awhile since I've seen it, but I can't say I remember the film being racist.

Do you have any specific examples?

 

[Shokunin]

Absolutely not.

Insensitive? Sure. I think that's part of the point.

But the movie romanticizes so much about Japan, her people and the culture.

 

[Shirosaki]

Have to disagree also, like Fevaweva said it's more to do with his character.

 

[EternalDarko]

I'm sorry I haven't seen the film in over 10 years, but do remember it fondly.
Do you have any examples of the racism?

 

[Magneto]

anyone else find this film racist and cringe-worthy in terms of dialogue? aged pretty poorly imo

Click to shrink...

I've watched it again 2 weeks ago and nope. But please show us some examples.

 

[Pixieking]

The "Rip/Lip my stockings" scene is pretty discomforting for how it plays on the Japanese accent, and was so even at the time, but I can't think of any other scenes.

 

[Quade]

Not in the slightest. Everything is cringey nowadays apparently. Film is amazing and has aged very well imo, it's timeless.

 

[Keywork]

Like a lot of that era of indie filmmaking the whole genre is unabashedly "white privilege". I mean you could say the indie genre even now so still steeped in white privilege.

I still love the film, but I can for sure see where problematic elements can pop up if viewing it without the context of the situations.

 

[Deleted member 39374]

I love how the OP has no examples

 

[Depths]

Last time I saw it was about 5 years ago but I don't remember thinking it came off as racist.

 

[scottbeowulf]

Racist in what way? I'm open to listening but I watched it about a year ago and don't remember any racism.

 

[Deleted member 431]

The "Rip/Lip my stockings" scene is pretty discomforting for how it plays on the Japanese accent, and was so even at the time, but I can't think of any other scenes.

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It's because there is no L sound in Japanese. My family are from Eastern Europe and they can't say the "W" sound in English so it sounds like V. Same idea, I don't know if I'd call it racist.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I love how the OP has no examples

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Effort is hard bro

 

[Anton Sugar]

It's because there is no L sound in Japanese. My family are from Eastern Europe and they can't say the "W" sound in English so it sounds like V. Same idea, I don't know if I'd call it racist.

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I think they understand the language difference--they're probably more trying to point out that racist portrayals of Asians also exploit this "difference", usually in a way that mocks/makes a caricature out of the Asian character.

 

[Pixieking]

It's because there is no L sound in Japanese. My family are from Eastern Europe and they can't say the "W" sound in English so it sounds like V. Same idea, I don't know if I'd call it racist.

Click to shrink...

Oh, yeah, I know, but it's... it's a hard line to walk between commenting on something that actually occurs, and buying into the Japanese stereotype, and I don't think the scene succeeds. I love the film otherwise, but I remember walking home after seeing it in the student cinema and being uneasy.

I think they understand the language difference--they're probably more trying to point out that racist portrayals of Asians also exploit this "difference", usually in a way that mocks/makes a caricature out of the Asian character.

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Yarrrrr.

 

[ratcliffja]

It's because there is no L sound in Japanese. My family are from Eastern Europe and they can't say the "W" sound in English so it sounds like V. Same idea, I don't know if I'd call it racist.

Click to shrink...

It's maybe more accurate to say that there is neither an L nor an R sound in Japanese. Their consonant is a hybrid of both.

 

[Squarehard]

Hot takes without any context.

These are always fun.

 

[Dali]

Oh no, Mr Bob Harris, don't touch me! Justa lip my stocking!

It could go either way. I think Sofia Coppala said it's a love letter to Japan herself. But that wouldn't automatically take it off the hook.

 

[vatstep]

Saying something is cringe-worthy is probably the laziest form of criticism.

 

[Deleted member 431]

Oh, yeah, I know, but it's... it's a hard line to walk between commenting on something that actually occurs, and buying into the Japanese stereotype, and I don't think the scene succeeds. I love the film otherwise, but I remember walking home after seeing it in the student cinema and being uneasy.

Click to shrink...

That's fair. I didn't care much for that scene myself, it was too absurd in an otherwise relatively sombre film.

 

[FTF]

Disagree except for one part...

The "Rip/Lip my stockings" scene is pretty discomforting for how it plays on the Japanese accent, and was so even at the time, but I can't think of any other scenes.

Click to shrink...

Which is this and is a bad scene and adds nothing to the movie.

Edit: ok reading the below there is more than I remember. I forgot the black toe part. But as others have said, I don't think it's the movie being racist, but the character being insensitive, etc. But I think some of the movie would def change if made today. But I admit to a bit of biased as I love the movie.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Racism is often tragically, farcically unoriginal. That's the main takeaway from my viewing of Lost in Translation in 2017. I counted at least five jokes about mixing up L with R, e.g., "Lat Pack," "Loger Moore," and, most infamously, an insistent "Lip my stockings" from a faux-helpless prostitute who flails on the floor screaming for "Hep! Preas!" According to the movie, Japanese sexuality is "weird." Japanese TV is "weird." Japanese food is good, but Japanese tastes are "weird." (Riffing on Charlotte's injured toe, Bob riffs, "This country, somebody's gotta prefer a black toe [as a sushi delicacy]." He then apes the people around him: "Brack toe.") Not a single Japanese person is relatable as a fellow human being. Coppola's camera also runs through the most banal images possible of "Japaneseness": geishas, kimonos, Buddhist temples, neon-dominated cityscapes, pachinko parlors, Mount Fuji, flower arrangements. It's a small wonder that Fodor's didn't sue the film for identity theft.

More insulting is the dismissal of contemporary Japanese culture as imitative and clueless — as parroting American culture without realizing what the words mean or why they're impactful. A Japanese man goes by "Charlie Brown," but he himself doesn't know why. Charlotte's celebrity-photographer husband (Giovanni Ribisi) complains of a rock band's makeover, "Let them be who they are! They're trying to make them Keith Richards when they're just skinny and nerdy." (Of course there's a Japanese character who says "lock and loll." Of course.) Modern Japan, according to Coppola, is the land of inauthenticity. It even infects Bob: He should be doing a play, but he sells out for a whiskey commercial. Writer and filmmaker E. Koohan Paik observed back in 2003, "The Japanese are presented not as people, but as clowns. … The hilarity is rooted entirely in the 'otherness' of the Japanese people. We laugh at them, not with them."

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Don't expect much solidarity from people here especially after the AsianERA stuff from last year

 

[JehutyRunner]

Take what I say with bias in mind as it's my favourite film ever.

It can veer towards being uncomfortable at times - especially as mentioned above the lick/rip my stocking bit - but racist? Nah. Definitely not.

I think more than anything LiT was more of trying to celebrate Japanese culture from an outsider. And I think it succeeded. It's why it's my favourite film. Every time I see it, it makes my urge to go to Japan return with a vengeance.

But I'd be lying too if I thought it was perfect. It's not.

 

[jph139]

I mean, in a sense - the setting of Japan and the Japanese characters in it are just props. They exist only as window dressing for jokes and the basic exploration two rich white people's ennui. It's a person making a film that's, ostensibly, about a culture they're not a part of and don't understand.

Racism is a long scale, though - it doesn't go at the far end with "John Wayne as Genghis Khan" or Breakfast at Tiffany's. It's at the near end.

 

[mael]

The movie that spends most of its runtime in a goddamn hotel?
Can't say I remember much of it, there's barely Japan in this movie or I really slept through a lot of it which should tell you all you need to know about what I think of this movie.
Could be a Woody Allen movie for all the good I think of it.

 

[shnurgleton]

For a very long time, this was my all-time favorite film. It seemed to communicate the strangeness of being in a place in my life where anything could happen but I felt trapped in some amazing neon prison with so many incredible possibilities just out of reach because I didn't "speak the language" and couldn't relate to the people around me. The culture shock of being in a place like Japan seemed like an incredible metaphor for this weird, transitional feeling. Does the excellent filmmaking justify the clumsy use of racist tropes? No. Does it justify using an entire culture as furniture for some white people's problems? Probably not. So at this point in my life, in this age, I don't think I could recommend it in good conscience, but I will never forget how it made me feel when I was younger.

 

[admiraltaftbar]

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Don't expect much solidarity from people here especially after the AsianERA stuff from last year

Click to shrink...

I am actually amazed there are so many people disregarding OPs suggestion the movie is problematic. OP should have provided examples but the film having a poor portrayal of Japanese people isn't a new or hot take.

 

[excelsiorlef]

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Don't expect much solidarity from people here especially after the AsianERA stuff from last year

Click to shrink...

Thanks for doing what the op didn't.

Imagine how much better the conversation might have started with this as the foundation

 

[Morrigan]

Edit: thank you OP for adding examples, thread re-opened

 

[ann3nova.]

It's maybe more accurate to say that there is neither an L nor an R sound in Japanese. Their consonant is a hybrid of both.

Click to shrink...

Perception of English /r/ and /l/ by Japanese speakers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Emergency & I]

My wife is Japanese. I'll ask her how she feels about it?

 

[cognizant]

I somewhat agree though we're in a minority as its a beloved movie. The Japanese are caricatures. The movie would have been more compelling had the protagonist connected with a Japanese character, rather than the movie relentlessly keep Japan as Edward Said's 'The Other'.

 

[Bor Gullet]

There's a section about it on it's wiki page. Some critics criticized it when it came out.

Lost in Translation (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kunka Kid]

lol this is such a ResetEra thread title

 

[oledome]

I can kind of see OPs point, the two main characters existing in a kind of dream like environment, there aren't characters fleshed out other than them.

But that extends to other white characters, the boyfriend for example.

I don't see an issue with using Japan as the backdrop to their story, they both are there without choosing to, the disconnect from their lives is reflected in the disconnect from the culture.

 

[Dr. Mario]

I think the characters come off a bit bigoted. Definitely very whiny. I loved my time living in Japan even if I also was completely lost for parts of it, but these characters just pout, make fun and don't put in effort. I'm not sure that makes the film itself racist though, ultimately they learn to embrace it. You can call it colonialist I guess, but it's also again kind of the point. I'll say it's very prevalent with expats all over the world though, to whine and make fun of their new home country, so they caught that well.

 

[Deleted member 17207]

Nope.

In fact I've heard from both people who travelled to Japan, and Japanese people that the movie is pretty darned authentic for "an American's experience in Japan and with Japanese culture".

 

[dabbert]

taken with sofia coppola's entilted, whiney output as a whole, its probably the most racist thing, ive watched since, birth of the nation

 

[Pirateluigi]

Even beyond the potential racism in the portrayal, the fetishization of Japan is also pretty problematic. It's like how Dances With Wolves can be racist even if it attempts to portray Native Americans as "noble".

 

[Deleted member 17207]

Take what I say with bias in mind as it's my favourite film ever.

It can veer towards being uncomfortable at times - especially as mentioned above the lick/rip my stocking bit - but racist? Nah. Definitely not.

I think more than anything LiT was more of trying to celebrate Japanese culture from an outsider. And I think it succeeded. It's why it's my favourite film. Every time I see it, it makes my urge to go to Japan return with a vengeance.

But I'd be lying too if I thought it was perfect. It's not.

Click to shrink...

Well put.

 

[Dyle]

That's kind of the whole point of the movie even if Copolla never admitted it. The characters don't give a shit about Tokyo, it's just a place that isn't the US, and the movie is framed through their racist, xenophobic eyes as the city becomes simply a playground for their midlife crises. At times it works and captures that sense of culture shock well and at times it completely botches it. You can still enjoy it for what it is but have to recognize that the fact it takes place in Japan doesn't matter. The movie would be pretty much the same if it took place in any other non-Western major city.

 

[John Rabbit]

It's a myopic caricature of Japan, Japanese people, and Japanese culture. It commodifies the "otherness" of a foreign culture (to Americans) as a foil to highlight Charlotte and Bob's isolation. I don't know that it is outwardly "racist" but it definitely spends a lot of time soaking in the "Look how WEIRD this foreign culture is!" trope.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

I've only made it 30 minutes in because it's dreadfully slow and monotone, but so far the "culture clash" between American and Japanese culture was handled better in Tokyo Drift.

Let that simmer for a bit.

 

[Deleted member 431]

Even beyond the potential racism in the portrayal, the fetishization of Japan is also pretty problematic. It's like how Dances With Wolves can be racist even if it attempts to portray Native Americans as "noble".

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Shots fired at ResetEra gaming side

 

[Richiek]

That's kind of the whole point of the movie even if Copolla never admitted it. The characters don't give a shit about Tokyo, it's just a place that isn't the US, and the movie is framed through their racist, xenophobic eyes as the city becomes simply a playground for their midlife crises. At times it works and captures that sense of culture shock well and at times it completely botches it. You can still enjoy it for what it is but have to recognize that the fact it takes place in Japan doesn't matter. The movie would be pretty much the same if it took place in any other non-Western major city.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the Western characters are the main focus, while the Japanese characters are not really fleshed out at all and are just window dressing.

 

[Chumunga64]

I never liked Lost in translation for reasons I could never quite parse but that article about how this film explains a lot of it

I simply never cared for the two annoying white people

 

[nachum00]

Soundtracks fucking amazing though.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

I'm not sure there is much effort to characterize the Japanese people in that film one way or the other. It's all about the white people's experience. Not sure how racist that is but the cultural element is clearly an after thought.