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Logan Paul plans to "go gay" for a month
- Thread starter vatstep
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Cool just go tell that to all the questioning teens who were forcibly placed in conversion therapy. Like, DUH it shouldn't matter lmao but we weren't exactly afforded the flippancy you implied in this post.
I feel this is utterly naive to both what queer people go through in claiming their identity and to the history of people using "it's a choice" to dismantle our rights and oppress us since pretty much forever. Of course it matters.
Your post reads like "homophobia is over!" You think people don't still use these exact words against us?
The problem is that without explaining that sexuality isn't a choice, the law wasn't going to budge. If being gay was a choice, then we could just stop being "snowflakes" wanting to be special through a persecution complex and just stop being gay.
That's why it's important to be seen as taking a stand when it comes to sexuality being some kind of choice.
Apparently you care whether it is a choice, otherwise why are you bothered by the decades of personal testimony and scientific documentation that evidencing that it is not a choice?
Spoiler alert:
It's not a choice.
And it matters that it is not a choice because hetero and cis people have constantly berated and tried to "convert" LGBTQ+ people since the modern movement for LGBTQ+ rights started, even though it's not a choice. Imagine how much more they would do this damaging shit if they weren't being told it's not a choice.
It's not a choice.
I do find it funny that this thread was bumped because a pretty blonde guy was sucking dick in a gay porn.
I consume my fair share of gay porn, and guess what. Pretty blonde guys are a dime a dozen in porno flicks.
All this is doing is giving Logan Paul more attention over a bigoted comment he made at the start of the year. Whether he sucked dick for a porn film or not, he doesn't deserve that attention.
Literally. he could be any curly haired blonde twink, but hes a total cunt as well which just makes the attention he is getting all the more annoying. Especially when it's very clearly not him and yet people are still going on about it
Or 'heteroflexible'. This 'gag' is like straight out of the 90s.
Are we just signal boosting Logan Paul because he retweeted a fake video? Isn't this what the dude wants?
Well Chris Crocker actually did gay porn, Logan Paul is just a poser dickhead
Yeah but everyone can now point at Logan Paul and go "Ewww gay" while pretending to be an LGBT ally.
Well duh. The whole "The influencer ain't that bad, it's his fans" argument is really fucking dumb though and was used to defend Pewdiepie too.
When exactly are we going to hold influencers accountable?
First, forcibly placing someone into conversion therapy is wrong and should be banned.
Second, I guess I'm privileged. I live in a place where if someone started spouting homophobic bullshit, my counter wouldn't be "It's not a choice". It would be "Fuck off shithead" or "Stop worrying about what other people are doing".
Gay men and women didn't have that luxury in the past. And some still don't.
You're right. My post did read like that. I apologize. There are still some queer people who face discrimination that need sayings like "It's not a choice".
I will say an exgf of mine's sister (who is gay) corrected me one time during a discussion about whether or not it was a choice. The conversation might have had something to do with discussing the atrocities of conversion therapy and it just kinda came up. Anyway, I said being gay wasn't a choice and she said that for her it was and that it could be a choice. I was confused because she was the only gay person I have ever met to this day that said it was a choice lol. Literally the only one.
So how does he sell this to his younger fans? Arent like half his fan base little kids? Not being gay but the apparent "leaked video".
It's always fun when people try on races, ethnicities, genders, and gender identities like they're hats and jackets.
In philosophy/ethics there's a question of whether our basic desires (which are typically provided to us by nature and/or circumstance) are the primary consideration for a conception of agency, or whether our agency is actually reflected by how we feel or what our attitude is about these connatural desires. Like if we have a desire that we don't want to have, then that rejection or denial is arguably more expressive of our will than simply being provided with that basic desire by nature.
Obviously this sounds a lot like the kind of bullshit that some Christians say about it being a choice and how if we're gay that's God calling us to be celibate (bcuz they think it's icky), but I suppose I can see how someone being affirmative about or proud of these characteristics is 'choosing' to identify with them in a sense. So I guess where this perspective would break from Christian dogma is that this affirmative attitude isn't morally sinister or problematic and is probably necessary for people to self-actualize. But it's a choice in the sense that people recognize this trait or predisposition and they're empowered to say 'yes' to it. But idk that's kind of just a shot in the dark. I'd otherwise presume that anyone claiming that it was a choice for them were actually bi or pan or something.
I'm gay and I think he's sort of right. We pretty much only care about criticizing 'choices' when they have a legitimate moral dimension and this absolutely doesn't. It's kind of just arguing about individual taste or aesthetics in which case if it were a choice the reasonable answer would be "so what?" Like the only reason framing is as a choice is harmful is because the implicit claim that we shouldn't be choosing it, which isn't self-evident.
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How often do you hear " well it shouldn't matter if being gay is not a choice or not."
Exactly. There's a reason for that.
Actually nvm, think what you want. I'm not about to get into this.. it's far too upsetting. I have zero interest in digging up past things that have happened to me and friends as " evidence" to counter that absurd POV.
Alright dude.
My objection to framing it as not a choice is it seems like it's accepting or agreeing to the claim that it's a suboptimal state of being that just has to be accepted as a fact instead of something that can be more affirmative and positive. But that doesn't mean I agree with framing it as a choice, either. Sexuality and identity are more complex than the language we have to talk about it.
Let me be clear, if you're a LGBT person and want to agree with that that's your right, I'm not about to in-fight on how you want to view+live your LGBT life. But I 100% don't think that sentence should ever be coming out of straight people's mouths
"Who cares if it is or is not a choice as that concern has no bearing on whether it's morally acceptable" should imo not be a controversial statement when spoken by anyone, assuming it's sincere.
The internet/world consistently rewarded their egregious behavior at every turn.
I don't think the idea that it's a choice should be given credence to. At best it's used to obfuscate behavior vs. nature, at worst it shifts the onus onto us for our own persecution. Of course the difference shouldn't matter, so the statement is in that sense true, but in the current state of things it does. Either way, one of these options is true and one is not, so why play games with it anyway?
"Allies" like to pull out things like "Well if it WAS a choice that's fine too!" and like no don't go putting things on me. Only choice I made was to be out to you, y'know? So I instantly cast doubt on the intentions of someone who plays that card. And if we could make choices with our sexuality we'd all be pansexuals, I would hope!
I suppose. I just find the rhetorical force of 'it's not a choice' seems to rest partly on the presumption that if it weren't no one would choose it which seems kinda pitying or condescending. I don't really like either frame in all honesty but I can concede that the 'not a choice' thing is much more effective at bringing people around to recognizing our rights and we don't have to subject peoples motives for saying that to as much suspicion.
I do think it's an interesting discussion. Like...you're not wrong here. Ideally it shouldn't matter if it's a choice or not. Realistically, when cultures all over the world constantly reinforce heteronormativity, it matters very much. When the whole world is telling you to be straight, it helps to know that you were just made this way.
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