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Benzychenz

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,396
Australia
This assumes this is the only dead on spot for that part, which it isnt. There is a misdirecting spot right near the bush! Im not saying you need to be a rocket scientist, but its not within reasonable thought to say I should have known
But even then, you know you're trying to get to the desert, and the river is blocking your path. The map in this game is not that big, you can go up and down this river twice in 10 minutes. If you fail to slash this telegraphed bush in your many attempts it's really not a fault of the game.
 

Omar Ramzy

Banned
Oct 21, 2019
107
You know plenty of millennials are 30+ years old and many of them would have played the Game Boy version......

I don't mean the generation, I mean more like the hand holding age, waiting for the game to help you or show you a hint on every step
This "gonna-use- detective-mode" mentality
I don't mean it in a bad way, I mean the lazy way we've got accustomed to
 
Oct 25, 2017
255
I dont agree with that remotely, I find Lttp to be a lot more intuitive. Im not sure what parts you were referring to in the above section of your post
First, I don't blame you for getting stuck there, at the river to Animal Village; it happens. Classic Zelda games all have tricky parts in them at times, I've gotten stuck plenty too.

But on the subject of LttP, did you read my previous posts in the thread? Particularly this one and this one. After the first of those posts, I think the OP realized that LttP is actually a fairly confusing game, and said that they prefer newer Zelda games to that style, now.

Do you forget what kind of game LttP is? Have you forgotten about the numerous hidden items that game requires that you find, which have no or almost no clues? I guess I need to link my old article again; please read it, and consider how LA has nothing anywhere near as confusing as ANY of the things in my list in that article. http://www.blackfalcongames.net/?p=319

I focus there a lot on the hidden items, because they were one of the most frustrating things about LttP for me. The list includes the Book of Mudora, the Quake Medallion, the Flute, the Ether Medallion, the Bombos Medallion, getting into the Swamp of Sorrows, the Ice Rod, and the Silver Arrows. LA does not have puzzles like those because it does not just require you to find items randomly hidden in the world to progress. Instead you get required items in more sensible ways, either from the other characters or from dungeons. In LttP that Ice Rod part particularly was REALLY horrible, and the Ether Medallion is barely any better. LA would NEVER do anything like the nonsense LttP makes you go through if you didn't happen to find those items in your travels! Nintendo had progressed games forward in the years in between, and made Link's Awakening a more straightforward and gated experience with better hints and puzzles more connected to the point you are at in the game. The closest LA equivalent to those hidden items is probably the Boomerang, which is optional.

Thank goodness that no Zelda game since LttP actually allows you to get to the very end of one of the last dungeons without an item you need to complete it, only to force you to leave the dungeon, go find said item which there are no clues about besides something very early in the game you can miss and can't have the game repeat (unlike LA, which allows you to repeat some such messages on the map), and then makes you play through that whole long, warp and shortcut-free dungeon from the beginning once you look up a guide which can tell you where to find the needed item (the Ice Rod)! That is what I went through, and it is incredibly frustrating game design. Sometime between LttP and LA, Nintendo realized that. They then decided to make their next game less easy to get lost and stuck in. I am very happy with the results. (Yes, when I first wrote that article some people said 'you should have found it early on, explore more'. But I think that better games, like LA, don't let you get in that situation in the first place.)

And in LA that is exactly what they started doing. LA dungeons give you the required item. Lots more hints were added including clues in dungeons about puzzles in the dungeon, not something Zelda had had much of before. The world was sectioned off more so through most of the game you are following a clear path forwards, as opposed to LttP's mostly open worlds. There is more story, more interesting characters, and a more to do in the town. LA puzzles are confusing at times, but you almost always have the abilities on hand to complete them, you just need to figure them out. That was very definitely NOT the case in LttP, not if you were missing some key item in a corner of the map! And if you don't have the ability in LA, they almost always make it clear. The trading game is the one potential really tricky puzzle, but even there the NPCs give you strong hints about things they want, you just need to figure out how to get those things. Your attack and defense abilities were improved in LA as well with the longer sword range and such, warps were added at the halfway points of every dungeon, and more.

I don't mean the generation, I mean more like the hand holding age, waiting for the game to help you or show you a hint on every step
This "gonna-use- detective-mode" mentality
I don't mean it in a bad way, I mean the lazy way we've got accustomed to
I like something balanced between the two, myself. I do not enjoy 'just explore and find everything' NES-style, but totally linear handholding can get boring as well. I generally like objective markers and would never turn them off in, say, Metroid Prime. But again I think that LA balances that so well, with just the right amount of handholding to make me keep going, but enough openness to make exploration rewarding. It's brilliantly done stuff.
 
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ReyVGM

Author - NES Endings Compendium
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
5,438
If anyone should be complaining about something, it should be the stupid map markers you can set. Why not make the markers an icon of the tools you get (running boots, hookshot, feather, etc), instead of stupid triangles and clubs and spades. The only icon that actually means something is the heart icon, which I use to mark locations of heart pieces I can't get to.

But it would have been a TON better if I could set a hookshot icon at a place where I would need to use that item in the future, or a running boot icon to mark caves where those black crystal (jelly?) obstacles are located. I used the map markers extensively, but other than hearts, I usually didn't even remember what a spade or diamond icon was supposed to mean to me after spending a few days without playing the game, so every time I got a new item, I would just re-visit all my map markers to see what's in that area. So in the end, the map markers (except the hearts), were more like points of interest than actual icons with meaning.

I did use them in dungeons to mark which stairs led to what place. But still, that could have been made much better.
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,893
But even then, you know you're trying to get to the desert, and the river is blocking your path. The map in this game is not that big, you can go up and down this river twice in 10 minutes. If you fail to slash this telegraphed bush in your many attempts it's really not a fault of the game.
I feel like that spot would have been more obvious if it was a boulder that needed picked up and not a damn bush.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
I guess I could get the space issue, that was something I considered earlier when someone else was wondering how the pattern couldn't be found - so the case they were only hitting the walls would bring that about. I do still say that the fact you were so strongly on the right track makes it hardly an obtuse puzzle, even if distasteful to the trials you had.

Perhaps not obtuse, but definitely annoying - not something I can say I've encountered much in Zelda games.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,115
But on the subject of LttP, did you read my previous posts in the thread? Particularly this one and this one. After the first of those posts, I think the OP realized that LttP is actually a fairly confusing game, and said that they prefer newer Zelda games to that style, now.


As I said before, I think the majority of (what I've played so far at least) of LA has been very clear or fairly reasonable, which is why I think the parts that aren't stand out more. In LTTP I would have been completely toast without a guide probably more than 10 times because of how unclear things were about where I should be going. I started my Zelda life with OOT and didn't actually play LTTP to completion until last year for the first time, and this is my first experience with LA this year on Switch.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
How? This is not Zelda 1 or Zelda 2 or ALTTP, where things are actually obtuse. If anything Zelda puzzles can be too easy at times.
 
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Yan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,489
I was planning to buy this for my nephew of 11 years old for his birthday but starting to doubt now.
 
Nov 27, 2017
30,142
California
I borrowed the game from my friend and yeah I had to use YouTube a few times when I was stuck
Those phone calls with that guy help but sometimes I had to use YouTube for the dungeons

I had the same problems on the gbc version too
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,249
I was planning to buy this for my nephew of 11 years old for his birthday but starting to doubt now.

The in-game hint system in the game goes a long way unless you consider that "cheating" for some reason. Many people first played and finished this as children after all. Some of the confusion from the comments I saw in the OP comes from the fact that they did not interact enough with the villagers. Children are naturally curious and less rushed, so my assumption would be they would be less likely to run into such issues. There are some obtuse things in the game but it's not as disastrous as it sounds.
 

mgrimble2

Member
Aug 21, 2019
184
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
My Wife is giving up on this game because of how obtuse everything is. My best friend pushed through and beat it BUT said he was looking up stuff all the time. Very obtuse and random with no real clues.

I have yet to start it. I did just beat BOTW so maybe I'll be in the Zelda mind set and it won't be bad? Plus now I now to cut every single piece of grass and do stupid things in every room justy to see if it's a random solution to a puzzle.
 

Deleted member 31923

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,826
What I find more of a pain and a chore in 2D Zelda games is the in between dungeon tasks, such as trading sequences, needed to get to the next dungeon. Link's Awakening was a bit of a pain in this area in some parts, but I found the dungeons themselves to be pretty easy and the puzzles weren't that bad. I needed a guide a few times, but not much. I actually felt relieved when I made it to a dungeon and don't have to worry about the filler in between tasks.

Also, Link's Awakening is probably the easiest of the handheld Zelda games that I have played (which is all but the DS games). I played Oracle of Ages/Seasons after Link's Awakening, and they are a lot more complex in terms of in between dungeon tasks and the dungeons themselves, not to mention an extra layer of complexity with linked games, secrets, passwords, and more.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
What I find more of a pain and a chore in 2D Zelda games is the in between dungeon tasks, such as trading sequences, needed to get to the next dungeon. Link's Awakening was a bit of a pain in this area in some parts, but I found the dungeons themselves to be pretty easy and the puzzles weren't that bad. I needed a guide a few times, but not much. I actually felt relieved when I made it to a dungeon and don't have to worry about the filler in between tasks.

Also, Link's Awakening is probably the easiest of the handheld Zelda games that I have played (which is all but the DS games). I played Oracle of Ages/Seasons after Link's Awakening, and they are a lot more complex in terms of in between dungeon tasks and the dungeons themselves, not to mention an extra layer of complexity with linked games, secrets, passwords, and more.
Well, Zelda games in general really aren't for you if all you care about are dungeons and not the exploration and side quests. Though I would suggest Skyward Sword, that seems like it would be the best game for that, as it had the least amount of exploration, and the non-dungeon areas felt like dungeons.
 
Nov 26, 2017
116
Tbh I feel that this is an issue with most older Zelda games, specifically the top down ones. They can be far too cryptic on what they want you to do and don't always do a good job of making what you need to get there even clear. Yes, this includes ALTTP. ALBW is the topdown zelda formula perfected, if we're being honest.
 

Kyzon Xin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
530
I don't understand anyone who defends this or says they never had a problem. Did you play the original and just know where things are?

Some things are so hidden and without explanation. I imagine a ton of people playing without a guide on the first playthrough getting lost on the regular.

Edit: Anyone who says the phone booth is helpful deserves to be hunted down by a mob of pitchforks and cuckoos.

I played the original release when I was a young child. Couldn't even find the key to the first dungeon for months. Then I started paying attention and hit Tarin with the magic powder. After that I didn't have much trouble since I understood how the game communicated.

Until eagle's tower. Lmao that dungeon was something else 😂
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
Just finished the game a couple days ago. Only had to look up two things. And honestly, I didn't really need to look them up. I got lazy and gave up pretty fast.

But yeah, the game definitely stresses your memorization and pattern recognition skills above other things. And if you're not prepared for it that can seem "obtuse" but when you look back on it it's really not. And I agree with a lot of people that the remake kinda messes things up by not having everything perfectly divided into screens. I'm the end though, this has been one of my favorite Zelda experiences. It has enough different about it that even with tons of Zelda knowledge I managed to get stumped here and there. And the dungeons really put the squeeze on me a few times. Might be some of my favorite dungeons in the series. I really had to use the map to find treasure and really pay attention to the layout, rather than just coasting my way through. They were equal levels labyrinths, equal levels combat arenas, and equal levels puzzle boxes. Eagles Tower is especially wonderful and I'd love to see newer games like BotW2 take note.

Anyway, I found the game thoroughly engaging from start to finish.
 

Majik13

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,844
Ill say it is the only Zelda I have ever had to look up a few clues in dungeons to progress(and Ive played all major release since a kid) Never beat Zelda 2 though. In the first or 2nd dungeon where you need to hit the masked shy guys in the back with a spin attack. i tried this early on hitting them in the back. didn't kill them, dropping bombs by them, jumping over them and attacking, trying to make them push blocks, trying to make them walk off edges, etc. Tried hitting them in the back again. Nothing. Was trapped in that dungeon forever. Looked it up finally( I never do this) and it was indeed hitting them in the back, but you have to be mostly behind them, if you are off to the side a bit, and still hit them, doesn't kill them. The game doesnt give any clue about that. Obviously I figured it out, but the game is a little janky in its execution, they should die by hitting them anywhere other than the mask.

The other one was the 4 Skeletons in the 4 different colored block rooms. Went all around that dungeon knowing I need the hook shot. But couldn't unlock it. I wasnt sure how to progress, i had been to every room, but couldn't figure it out. Turns out that you need to kill the first skeleton in the room with 1 colored block, then go to the room with the 2 colored blocks, and so on. But I had gone to the 3 colored block room or the 4 colored block room before( cant recall) before going to the previous colored block room, so no skeleton had spawned there, so nothing was triggering. You have to hit the rooms in order and defeat the enemy in order then do the next room. If you go to 4 room first nothing happens. Gotta go to 3, then 4. But the game never gives this clue anywhere. I feel I visited this rooms several times while I was stuck, but not till I looked up, then went back did the final skeletons actually spawn. Again don't recall seeing this clue dropped anywhere in that dungeon. I knew something was up about the colored blocks though. But I do agree some things are a bit more obtuse in this game than other zeldas. But I do enjoy that its not very hand holdy like most Zeldas games.
 
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empo

Member
Jan 27, 2018
3,114
I played it for the first time and didn't have to look anything up. Where's my Super Gamer award.

Also I did a replay of ALttP right before the remake and since a friend was playing it for the first time I was actively thinking about how you figure stuff out so I could give him hints instead of just giving him the solution and no your memories of ALttP is completely wrong if you think it's more handholdy and guided than LA.
 

mgrimble2

Member
Aug 21, 2019
184
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
If that's the attitude you're gonna have going into then then just don't start it. Jesus Christ y'all

I feel like this is a good attitude to go into the game with. Know some of the puzzles are super out there so I can be prepared for them or try random things to try and solve them. Oh and of course not feel too bad for YouTubing a solution hahaha.

BOTW I looked up a couple shrine solutions and with those I probably could have spent the extra time to solve them. From what I'm hearing about this game, that's not the case.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
I feel like this is a good attitude to go into the game with. Know some of the puzzles are super out there so I can be prepared for them or try random things to try and solve them. Oh and of course not feel too bad for YouTubing a solution hahaha.

BOTW I looked up a couple shrine solutions and with those I probably could have spent the extra time to solve them. From what I'm hearing about this game, that's not the case.
Okay that's fair, sorry for coming off the way I did. I read your comment like you were going in expecting to hate it.
 

mgrimble2

Member
Aug 21, 2019
184
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Okay that's fair, sorry for coming off the way I did. I read your comment like you were going in expecting to hate it.

No worries. Text can be misinterpreted pretty easily.

I kind of went into BOTW with a similar attitude regarding the weapon durability and climate systems. Ended up liking that game quite a bit overall BUT was not a fan of the weapon system at all. I think knowing about it beforehand let me come in prepared and let me move past it and enjoy all the awesome aspects of that game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
No worries. Text can be misinterpreted pretty easily.

I kind of went into BOTW with a similar attitude regarding the weapon durability and climate systems. Ended up liking that game quite a bit overall BUT was not a fan of the weapon system at all. I think knowing about it beforehand let me come in prepared and let me move past it and enjoy all the awesome aspects of that game.
I think it's important, especially with older games using different design philosophies than we usually see today. I'm always trying to actively think about the games I play to make sure I'm not trying to bruteforce my habitual playstyle into them. Like with platformers, I play so much Mario and Donkey Kong that I impulsively fall into playing every platformer in a speedrun style and it can affect my enjoyment or understanding of some titles. You never know when it can change the way you look at something. Cheers!
 

Bosh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,226
I have beaten I think 5 Zelda games now. Besides BOTW, Links Awakening was only the 2nd of those 5 I could beat without looking at a guide at least once.

I did play the GBC version (which I would imagne the Switch version is slightly less obtuse) but I always found the phone in the game to be very specific on what I had to do next. The layout of world paired with the items they give you typically went together well. .

Didn't find all the shells, but I was only a few short of completion (16 or 17 out of 20) and those were a lot less specific
 

Naudyboy

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 6, 2019
179
Sorry to bump this thread back up but I just completed the game. The only Zelda games I've played are Skyward Sword (Beat), Wind Waker on the GameCube (3 hours), Breathe of the Wild (10 hours) and now this.

Having never played a handheld Zelda before, I certainly needed a walkthrough to a 3rd of the puzzles. A lot of things aren't even explained, so without experimenting certain areas become hard. I find myself to be a pretty adept gamer, but i was stumped too many times so I decided to prevent myself from further frustration, to just use a walk through.

Very easy example here: The enemies who mimic you, its not explained about how to defeat them. Without the walkthrough, how da heck was I supposed to know how to beat them? The game has a ton of moments and things like this. The pattern within the Wind Fish's egg; How were we supposed to have figured that?

It almost put me off during my playtime. It's not a difficult game but boy does it make a lot of things obtuse.

I understand this game is also from the era where games were tougher in terms of puzzles and figuring things out, but there's a difference between being hard and not explaining anything!!!

The game went from one of my top games of the year to a game I just wanted to complete and put away.
 
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Nov 13, 2017
9,537
The only puzzle that fucked me up was the one with the pillars you had to knock down.

ALttP has puzzles that are legit unsolvable without a guide. People love forgetting that when they rank it higher than Ocarina.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
Very easy example here: The enemies who mimic you, isn't not explained about how to defeat them. Without the walkthrough, how da heck was I supposed to know how to beat them? The game has a ton of moments and things like this
Experiment with the tools you have until something works. You don't have that many so trying everything would only take a few minutes.

Also that particular example is quite intuitive: how to attack something without facing it...
 

Naudyboy

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 6, 2019
179
Experiment with the tools you have until something works. You don't have that many so trying everything would only take a few minutes.

Also that particular example is quite intuitive: how to attack something without facing it...

I beat it, but a lot of those moments aren't even moments i would of attempted to experiment in. The example of the mimic enemies, having never experienced them in a prior game, how was I supposed to assume to defeat them as such.

Same with the pillars that needed to be broken in that late dungeon. Too many of the puzzles are more than just experimenting, they're completely obtuse unless you've played the Original.

There are definitely moments where a light bulb went on in my head and something clicked and made sense and moments where I did experiment with different gadgets. But early on the game never set the precedent or rules to its world. It just throws you into it
The game tells you. The magnifying glass allows you to read the book in the library with tiny print which gives you the pattern

Sure I guess, but without the walkthrough I would of never went back to the library for that book. Yes I know we got the magnifying glass hours before in the game, but it clearly wasn't on my mind to go back to the library.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
I beat it, but a lot of those moments aren't even moments i would of attempted to experiment in. The example of the mimic enemies, having never experienced them in a prior game, how was I supposed to assume to defeat them as such.
You are not supposed to assume anything, just think a bit and try some things. They aren't even in any other game (apart from the Oracles which are essentially LA ROM hacks), there is no prior knowledge supplied, you're supposed to use intuition and experimentation.

So if you didn't experiment, that means you resorted to a guide after trying... literally nothing?
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,042
I beat it, but a lot of those moments aren't even moments i would of attempted to experiment in. The example of the mimic enemies, having never experienced them in a prior game, how was I supposed to assume to defeat them as such.

Same with the pillars that needed to be broken in that late dungeon. Too many of the puzzles are more than just experimenting, they're completely obtuse unless you've played the Original.

There are definitely moments where a light bulb went on in my head and something clicked and made sense and moments where I did experiment with different gadgets. But early on the game never set the precedent or rules to its world. It just throws you into it


Sure I guess, but without the walkthrough I would of never went back to the library for that book. Yes I know we got the magnifying glass hours before in the game, but it clearly wasn't on my mind to go back to the library.
The hint hotline guy tells you to check the library
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,469
Naw. LA was the only classic 2D Zelda that I never needed to check a guide for.
It's not as hand holding as the post Minish Cap games, but it's nowhere near as obtuse as the Oracle games and I got stuck in ALTTP more often.
 

krg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,901
I have to bump this since I've been playing this game all day and I've been stuck at least 2 or 3 times. Some puzzles just don't make any sense... don't get me wrong, I actually like this game quite a bit and I'm gonna finish it, but as the OP said some of this shit is really unnecessary.. it makes me feel dumb to actually go online, watch a video and see how to solve some of these puzzles.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,501
I have to bump this since I've been playing this game all day and I've been stuck at least 2 or 3 times. Some puzzles just don't make any sense... don't get me wrong, I actually like this game quite a bit and I'm gonna finish it, but as the OP said some of this shit is really unnecessary.. it makes me feel dumb to actually go online, watch a video and see how to solve some of these puzzles.

I also started it a few days ago but tbh I haven't gotten stuck anywhere yet. I'm 5 temples in so we'll see. Nothing feelz more obtuse than regular 2D Zela so far.
 

Zip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,028
How unintuitive parts of the game were is a big reason why I've always liked Link to the Past better.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
I just never had this issue as a kid. Not that I didn't get stuck. But I eventually figured it out and it didn't take a long time.

A perfect game, honestly.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,696
Fun thread to skim through.

Different things work for different people at different times. Personally, when I was younger and had ample free time, 1 game to play, and boundless imagination (on top of not knowing any differently), this type of obtuse game design and undirected exploration felt secretive and rewarding. I loved the 2D Zeldas because of it. They felt special. Often I'll get nostalgic for it, and often I'll bitch about modern game design being stupid in comparison.

End of the day though, I have far less time and patience for this now. My heart says I want it, my brain knows I don't. I won't play this game because I know I'll shut it off after getting stuck. Just how it is.
 

twofive

Member
Oct 27, 2017
330
I think the game have enough clues. Comparing to BotW, those optional seed puzzle is the main stuff in here. So if you can't find the seeds anywhere in BotW, you won't have a good time here.