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Banjo Tango

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
363
As for the fine art market being purely built on speculation, at least there are unique physical artifacts you get to speculate on there. Those artifacts have intrinsic value - being appreciated as fine art, displayed in museums, used in teaching, physical artifacts with history behind them, and so forth - vastly beyond "these ape images were procedurally generated".
Just wanted to +1 this post - people do purchase art because they like the art and the idea of owning the original, without thinking of it as an investment. From the NFT discord channels, its clear the people that are buying 'Billionaire Yacht Apes' are only thinking about getting rich.
 

PiranhaMan

Member
Apr 26, 2020
977
This.

Anyone for this shit is just finding a way to shill it some more.

Here's a pretty YouTuber doing it (I really liked Phan's vids back in the day too). Full tactics here. Explaining it, then selling it. Talking how risky it is, then promoting which coin THEY'RE with (because it's obviously the better one than those other scammers). Telling poor people they work hard for their money for it to be drained by the real world without any sense of irony (all you need is to put away the amount you'd put in a piggy bank!). All her comments to people are copy/paste bullshit (even detractors) describing how to join.





So much this. Once you know the lingo, you can hear it everywhere and it all sounds the same.

Whats funny is how her pinned comment on that video is a warning to viewers that there are lot of scammers in the cryptoworld and only to click her links in the description lol.
 

Trouble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,128
Seattle-ish
Cool, now he says he's making a video. Can't wait to see how this goes.


Sneak preview
giphy.gif
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
Which is why when Grimes made that joke tweet about Crypto UBI my gears started turning. What if we tokenized worker cooperatives, except they were funded by your UBI tokens? What if 'governance' was all just social workers who were able to distribute mutual aid tokens when the automated governance / automated self-care strategies don't work out. 'Social liquidity pools' / social tokens for the marginalized who can't work but still want to get supported for their various creative output. I don't know if these are 'good' ideas or if they could ever be implemented. Perhaps I am engaging in an unreasonable amount of idealism to find any positives with crypto, but these are some topics I would like to explore. However, as a vulnerable person who doesn't get regular commissions. Doesn't have much of a real-life support network. I have a computer; I have a familiarity with crypto. These are the things I think about. I want to see an automated equitable distribution of wealth.
So I actually scanned your wall of text, and while I don't really have the time or energy to engage with all of this I hope I can help you understand the mistake you are making here. You're taking these claims at face value and not critically engaging with them at all.

Grimes's UBI tweet wasn't actually a joke. She later elaborated what she meant by it, and it turns out she was talking about a blockchain 'play-to-earn' game that became popular in crypto-bro circles. Her idea was WoW gold farming, but on the blockchain. That's not a UBI - it's a sweatshop.

Similarly, having blockchain tokens solves none of the problems you think it does. First, the blockchain isn't really immutable - the current version of Eth is a fork from when a bunch of too big to fail Eth holders lost out on a scam. The most wealthy and connected will roll it back when it suits them.

What you're doing is trying to apply technological solutions to social problems. Just because there is a distributed, digitally signed linked list doesn't change anything about the world we live in. What a blockchain based society would actually is make it harder for regular people to organise and share by introducing digital scarcity where previously there was none or little - most notably by massively increasing transaction costs.

Having automated systems means nothing if the most wealthy have the power to opt out. At some point we all have to face up to the fact that real change requires political action. We can't magic our way to it with technology, and in fact blockchain would make such change harder because it would create a class of people invested in it's continuation.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Apologies in advance for the stereotypical cryptobro wall of text.

For context, here's what I do agree with: many of his criticisms about the people who are using it, how it's being used, and the collective culture surrounding it are on point. He makes some concessions on the environment talking point that I can respect. He is being extremely charitable considering how much of a mess crypto is, which I also respect. It was nice watching a video where someone had a solid understanding of the topic and had actually gone into crypto spaces to see how ridiculous they can be.

It felt like we were drawing on the same sources of information but came to slightly different conclusions. Which I think is healthy and good. Which is why I'm finally jumping in to say what I really think. I took some notes on some statements I had contention with. On a surface level, most of my contention stems from what appear to be from reasonable generalizations he makes to try to persuade viewers to stay away.



This is a criticism I have with many crypto-critical video essays that I've seen. How can we make it better? He does a masterful job explaining what is wrong in lieu of providing any meaningful solutions he seems to agree crypto could address. Right now, there are senate hearings happening with the big stablecoin issuers and centralized exchanges and policies are about to be made on this. Things are leaning in favor for crypto in those talks from what I've seen. If the current system is broken and crypto is broken, then what? It's unreasonable to expect anyone to provide a better solution to something to so inherently harmful, but in conjunction with the talking points below, it felt like the reasonable generalizations became hastier ones due primarily to this.







Realistically, that scene and the people arguing its points need to stop with the "it's the future" rhetoric. The future is bleak enough as it is. If something is broke, don't break it more. (Unless..?) The 'buy-in' nature of crypto and tokenizing of commodities are not new concepts. Insurance and unions the way he explains them do not sound like they need to be tokenized. These three talking points encapsulate what I generally see as a fundamental misunderstanding of the potential cryptocurrency has, they are necessary talking points that 'cryptobros' definitely need to be hearing.

Most DAOs aren't even decentralized since they require a single point of entry to create them in the first place. With MakerDAO they resigned and now it's purely in the hands of the people who hold it. You'll see software like Tezos have its own automated governance (self-adjusting protocols.) But then you'll see projects like he mentioned that are all like: 'look at my revolutionary inu yasha DAO that breaks the geneva convention and is probably a felony in Florida.' There is plenty of potential here I could see being helpful if they were better regulated.

Grifting isn't a necessary component in order to think critically in a positive direction toward crypto or use it. I'm an anarcho-collectivist but I'm also a trans disabled swer (idpol much?) As such, I'm poor and part of a vulnerable subsection of society prone to scams. I cannot There is no such thing as 'getting rich quick.' For example, just because selling cutco knives is inherently scammy does not mean the selling of knives is scammy. Dishonest people will always figure out a way to rob you and convince you it was your idea no matter what arena you are in. At least knives have permanent real-world value, I suppose. It would never be a smart move for someone like me to jump into investment, expensive art trading culture, or anything where I would need to 'buy-in' on a consistent basis or depend on me doing dollar-cost averaging on consistent basis.

Which is why when Grimes made that joke tweet about Crypto UBI my gears started turning. What if we tokenized worker cooperatives, except they were funded by your UBI tokens? What if 'governance' was all just social workers who were able to distribute mutual aid tokens when the automated governance / automated self-care strategies don't work out. 'Social liquidity pools' / social tokens for the marginalized who can't work but still want to get supported for their various creative output. I don't know if these are 'good' ideas or if they could ever be implemented. Perhaps I am engaging in an unreasonable amount of idealism to find any positives with crypto, but these are some topics I would like to explore. However, as a vulnerable person who doesn't get regular commissions. Doesn't have much of a real-life support network. I have a computer; I have a familiarity with crypto. These are the things I think about. I want to see an automated equitable distribution of wealth.

Sentiments like his above are often echoed, and understandably so. Which is why I want to raise the concern that both sides make it very difficult to talk positively about crypto in anything other than in a negative light. I want the Overton Window moved so I can discuss these elements without being treated like a 'cryptobro' or put on an NFT blocklist. I think this video has come the closest to getting enough people on the same page about the dangers of it, so I was a bit disappointed in some of these dismissals. Ultimately, I see this as a means to achieve some sort of



I had Bitcoin on Coinbase that I forgot about for years and then one day it turned into Bitcoin SV on the exchange. Back then I didn't think much of it. I expected the technology to be bad, it was new. It was the early 2010s. I was running bitcoin nodes locally; it was all very basic, unintuitive and unsafe. It wasn't like "hard fork" wasn't already in my lexicon at the time. Philosophically, in the early days people were very adamant about 'hard forks' being like a last resort against 51% attacks and security vulnerabilities that were inherent in new tech. Ethereum Classic is effectively as useless for the average person as bitcoin is (stores of wealth, remittance, laundering?) But that whole incident is what actually got me paying attention to crypto again because it was such a risky move in favor of consumer protection against fraud.



Not everything needs to be on chain, he showed some great examples of things that don't belong on-chain. Again, I feel like at this point most of my criticisms with these quotes are because we both agree on so much, but I was more inclined to think about think about it positively due to my biases of already being involved in that scene and convincing myself "I could make things better, provide appropriate use cases for this technology." On a personal level, I would be using "but I'm one of the good ones" arguments here as a kneejerk reaction, but like most things he is saying I think they are certainly 'fair' assessments irrespective of my disagreements. I want enough things to be present on chain that they are able to provide real world benefit. Crypto Oracle networks are a great example of this. I will often see arguments for things to be on chain only to be met with "why can't you do it elsewhere, just commission the artist." Chiming in with "well some of it is fungible actually" isn't very helpful but it is still true. I still think that's where the actual utility of web3 is, in providing more tangible benefit to human life instead of anything else. Some things would benefit from tokenization, having that ledger, being rewarded for burning, being rewarded for staking, etc. But for now, I haven't seen much that isn't a hyperbolic nightmare.

There was one other point of contention I had with this video: the section about cryptocurrency origins in the late 2000s. I was involved in the community back then and my first thought was "wait what, I don't remember any of it being that way." Nobody really cared about who made bitcoin, it was like "wait so i leave my computer on long enough this dude on reddit will send me a pizza?" The anonymous founder is pretty nebulous sounding admittedly, but with the big banking crash and all that and lack of premine it seemed like something worth exploring. While I have a lot of problems with crypto, they continually make strides in the consumer protection department that renews some confidence. I have never heard the stuff about the 'secret funding from 2006' that he mentions, I must have missed that part of the discourse.

Admittedly, I do have some bias on this topic: I don't 'invest' but I do have a decent workstation that I was gifted that I use to mine Ethereum when I'm not using my PC. I've mined enough to mint two tokens, but I've been putting most of what I get into coinbase's Eth2 contract in order to keep myself from wanting to spend it since I can't touch it until their Proof-of-Stake network goes live. This city uses hydroelectric, which I have been told makes all of what I am doing technically carbon-negative. Especially considering since I am only spending crypto that I have mined myself. I would benefit from a positive perception of crypto, so keep that in mind. Thank you.
Here's a better idea in three words: negative income tax. Your ideas for UBI have zero benefits over existing structures. An immutable ledger that's not actually decentralized has no benefits, like wtf
 

Zoph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,512
This thread has hella NGMI vibes 🤷🏽‍♂️
These comments are always obvious mask off moments. This has nothing to do with art or advancement or any of the high-minded window dressing, just making money in the most cynical, dumb, unethical way possible.
 

Lord Arcadio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,171
Seriously though, why are NFTs so damn ugly?

The video here explains it:
www.resetera.com

What the hell are NFTs? by Josh Strife-Hayes

Just wanted to bring t his to the attention of anyone who doesn't understand all of the meaningless babble around NFTs right now. I was one of them, and this is a really good explanation of how they work - and why they are a gigantic scam. Link to video...

The tl;dw is that they are generated by a computer that is combining different parts to make a new picture. Since this is about making money and not art, this method lets you cheaply make more images than if you had to get someone to actually make art.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,937
"I went and I bought an ape."

My God..

Paris Hilton has not lost her touch for demonstrating to me how stupid something is.

This subject of NFTs has caused such calamity. I've been forced to carve out free time in my week to study it. Absorb the topic. Become informed on crypto and NFTs...

... Only for Paris Hilton to remind me, in less than 2 minutes, "No Roy, it's all as dumb as it sounds."
 

ffframe

alt account
Banned
Nov 29, 2021
407
I wish I could've seen the audience's reaction to that giveaway. I'd literally be happier if Paris Hilton handed me a printed picture of her dorkass collage.

How many of the people in the studio audience even have wallets set up to receive these things? Betting less than 10%
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
Seriously though, why are NFTs so damn ugly?

It should be emphasized. NFT's are not art. NFT is a spot on a database, but as the video says since we have a need to claim ownership of something tangable, they made proceduraly generated images to represent your purchased database entry.

the NFT could "be" anything, but it is just in general a cell on an excel spreadsheet filled with whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy for having paid for it.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
It should be emphasized. NFT's are not art. NFT is a spot on a database, but as the video says since we have a need to claim ownership of something tangable, they made proceduraly generated images to represent your purchased database entry.

the NFT could "be" anything, but it is just in general a cell on an excel spreadsheet filled with whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy for having paid for it.

Oh I get that. But I don't get why the tangible images they chose are so damn ugly.

Like, there are NFTs of good art. They're still shit, but at least they're aesthetically pleasing. But no, the racist ugly apes are the popular ones
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,927
Canada
Oh I get that. But I don't get why the tangible images they chose are so damn ugly.

Like, there are NFTs of good art. They're still shit, but at least they're aesthetically pleasing. But no, the racist ugly apes are the popular ones

My favorite part is that they all set them as their profile picture, so the thing that's supposed to represent them and provide a unique identifier for others is just a fucking ugly ape that's functionally indiscernible from all the other apes.

They paid a bunch of money to voluntary dump themselves in the amorphous "ignore this person" pile.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
You're not supposed to use the cult's lingo when talking with outsiders.It's a surefire way to instantly turn them off from your sales pitch.

They should probably also not use the profile picture that says "I'm financially invested in the cult and my livelihood depends on indoctrinating others"
 

Zoph

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,512
Oh I get that. But I don't get why the tangible images they chose are so damn ugly.

Like, there are NFTs of good art. They're still shit, but at least they're aesthetically pleasing. But no, the racist ugly apes are the popular ones
Shallow aesthetics are honestly as far as they can go, because by definition they are tied to their worth to capital and can only ever be a commodity, and consequently can never really signify anything meaningful or transgressive.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,532
NGMI = Not Gonna Make It

It's like a doomsday cult. I didn't buy enough of Jim Bakker's buckets of cheese so now I'll die when society collapses during the apocalypse.
 

Bear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,864
Literally everyone involved with crypto and NFT's have direct interest.
Right, that's the point I'm making. This is like if Jimmy owned a ton of stock in a small company and did a segment with a celebrity being like "buy stock in this company." It's particularly gross because of the size of his platform.
 

ffframe

alt account
Banned
Nov 29, 2021
407
Seriously though, why are NFTs so damn ugly?
There are artists who have an eye for composition, colour theory, etc working on NFTs. Just not BAYC. BAYC and most profile picture style art depends a lot on generative art, like having to make a bunch of NPCs with different hair or sunglasses on the same base face rig, so you don't really end up with an aesthetically pleasing result -- it's more about making sure you make the components and make sure they can be assembled in a "logical" way. People often care more about the generative traits and their scarcity/rarities, like if only 1 monkey jpeg has a diamond-encrusted blunt hanging out of its mouth. This is often spit out as metadata that can be viewed alongside the NFTs on various platforms you use to view them: you might see that 1 pfp style NFT has a mood:tired trait, or another has a mood:excited trait.

When you're going for quantity over quality, you end up with stuff like the output of BAYC.
 

falcondoc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,213
Just finished this video spread out over several days.

Absolutely vital stuff. One of the most important video essays ever made I dare say. Or in more recent times.
 

porcupixel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
324
I assume most here have already watched his In Search of a Flat Earth video (and if you haven't go do it) but having just re-watched parts of that, it's remarkable how that subject shares a lot of the same underlying threads as Line Goes Up, particularly in the back third where he dives into
QAnon
: the widespread social anxiety about increasing complexity in the world and our deeply uncertain future, the growing feelings of powerlessness mixed with a refusal to comprehend or address the basic tenets of structural criticism, the overwhelming immunity to facts and evidence among followers out of a need to avoid confronting the immense psychological shame of having been swindled.

Basically there are no new stories. Just new audiences.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I assume most here have already watched his In Search of a Flat Earth video (and if you haven't go do it) but having just re-watched parts of that, it's remarkable how that subject shares a lot of the same underlying threads as Line Goes Up, particularly in the back third where he dives into
QAnon
: the widespread social anxiety about increasing complexity in the world and our deeply uncertain future, the growing feelings of powerlessness mixed with a refusal to comprehend or address the basic tenets of structural criticism, the overwhelming immunity to facts and evidence among followers out of a need to avoid confronting the immense psychological shame of having been swindled.

Basically there are no new stories. Just new audiences.
I really need to watch that one as everyone keeps mentioning it. This NFT vid was my first exposure to the guy but he really did a fantastic job laying out the facts. I'll check out his other vids.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,471
Réunion
One thing obvious about NFT/crypto, is that most of those involved with it really love money. It's not that they need it, no, they want it. I can understand wanting money, especially if they grew up in a poor family for example, but that doesn't excuse them acting like POS. In this video, the reaction from some of those people were despicable, they're just plain selfish. It's just greed, pure greed. Have some self-decency. But I guess decency has no value to them, right?
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
The crypto shills from other threads are noticeably absent here.
They generally pop up in threads where there's something they can twist.
"Bitcoin has lost a ton of value in the past few days" is easily twisted to "Well, you should buy it now so that when it gets big again you don't miss out on all the huge amounts of money you could make!"

"Opensea is rife with stolen art and makes it harder for artists to get their art removed" becomes "Well, stolen art is a massive issue no matter how art is sold so this isn't a big deal. But if you buy art with NFTs the artists get a cut so it's a net benefit!"
etc etc.

There's no positive here for them to spin. Just a solid, difficult to refute, in-depth video that exposes how much of a scam the whole thing is. They're not going to find any new people to scam in this thread and they have nothing to work with, so it's not worth their time.
 
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