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Lindsey Ellis:The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes
- Thread starter TheGamingNewsGuy
- Start date
You see, the show was ruined after S4. At that point, the trainwreck of an ending was inevitable. It was clear D&D never understood the point of ASOIAF in the first place and cared more about turning the show into a Hollywood spectacle. The odd thing is how they swerved at the very end to go back to acting like the series had any sort of thematic point. They take this character driven and thematic show then take a hard swerve into Hollywood Blockbuster town where themes or even internal logic are completely disregarded, then just before ending in a cliche' Hollywood manner they're like SIKE! Actually, it's about how power corrupts as they stroke their sagely beards and wag their fingers at the casual blockbuster audience they cultivated.
Stay away from Star Wars, please.
Stay away from Star Wars, please.
She doesn't bring a lot of new points but this is a fantastic tear down of why those final seasons are so bad. Fantastic work.
And yeah, that Tyrion speech is ridiculous. Killing slavers is not a prelude to anything bad and acting like it's a natural jump is insulting.
And yeah, that Tyrion speech is ridiculous. Killing slavers is not a prelude to anything bad and acting like it's a natural jump is insulting.
Weird that was the message they went with, "Petty Squables when we should be working together to solve the bigger problem" felt like the more logical path to take.
And I keep running in my head how things might have been more interesting if you actually reversed it so King's Landing and Dany's descent is first, then The Long Night takes place after that is resolved.
Kudos to her, she basically nailed it in that video. And what she says is sadly true I think ... this is going to become the defacto example of something being ruined by its ending to the point where even rewatching the "good parts" is tainted.
If I remember correctly, this is just an interpretation of George's work by someone and not the man himself. But GRRM likes to build up fan expectations in thinking that certain characters are the main character of the books first Ned then to a much lesser extent Robb (who doesn't have any POVs), Renly etc.
Everyone who you thinks should be the main focus of the story or will be is killed off quite early and the focus of the books are really the characters that a lot of fantasy writers ignore. The mothers, the sisters, a dwarf, a bastard, an orphan princess halfway across the world and a crippled boy. Yet even then, Bran isn't seen as THE main characters, it's Dany or Jon who's secretly a King.
GRRM really played with fan expectations.
The sad thing is in comparison to Star Wars .... so OK even if you are a person who hated the prequels and TLJ and didn't even care for TFA much ... you don't really need those movies.
The OT and the central story that needed to be told was told a few quibbles with Ewoks and a detour at Jabba's sail barge, more or less told in a very satisfying way and the redemptive ending fit perfectly.
I basically just ignore the prequels outside of about 30 minutes worth of Revenge of the Sith, and I view the Disney trilogy as kind of like "movie DLC content", like an extra story tacked on that you don't need to really have, you can take it or leave it depending on your amount of enjoyment with their approach to it.
Game of Thrones really sucks because it does color a lot of the previous seasons, basically the whole White Walker and Dany and even Jaime plot arcs you know are leading to fairly dull or just full on stupid endings.
The OT and the central story that needed to be told was told a few quibbles with Ewoks and a detour at Jabba's sail barge, more or less told in a very satisfying way and the redemptive ending fit perfectly.
I basically just ignore the prequels outside of about 30 minutes worth of Revenge of the Sith, and I view the Disney trilogy as kind of like "movie DLC content", like an extra story tacked on that you don't need to really have, you can take it or leave it depending on your amount of enjoyment with their approach to it.
Game of Thrones really sucks because it does color a lot of the previous seasons, basically the whole White Walker and Dany and even Jaime plot arcs you know are leading to fairly dull or just full on stupid endings.
I wouldn't say that about Bran. Bran has always been portrayed by GRRM as a main character. He starts the story after all.
It's just that people thought Bran was a messiah for the magic apocalypse but wouldn't matter much to the political story.
But he's actually the answer to the political story as well. So that's where he really played with expectations because they thought Bran would stay in his lane not take over both the magical and political story.
It's my belief that overall, it is very close to being Bran Stark's story. He's at least first among equals when it comes to Jon, Bran and Dany.
I think the thing is that the story doesn't do enough to justify that. Even in the books, Bran isn't THAT present. He isn't that prominent. His arc is there, sure, but it's so secondary to EVERYTHING that audiences should be forgiven for believing it's mostly there to provide context, explanation and world depth rather than a "where the story has always been going all along" kind of thing.
The first POV in a story is not always the most important one. After all, the actual first PoV in Game of Thrones is actually Will in the prologue.
He does start the story but then he quickly loses the use of his legs and is confined to a wheelchair. In a world of Knights, Kings and the like, what use is a boy in a wheelchair?
IMO, GRRM used fans' ableism and as a result Bran was confined to someone who was destined to simply be an info dump. He'd find out about Jon's parentage or some other important information and pass it on to the characters who can effect change in the world.
My point is, it IS Bran's story but almost no one realized that it was.
Holy shit, I totally forgot about that Tyrion conversation trying to rationalise killing slavers and rapists as actually a bad thing. Fuck this show.
He is pretty prominent. Like, I think the story beats you over the head in book one that Bran Stark is the messiah.
He's not prominent in that you see a lot of him but in terms of importance, he's a step above even Dany and Jon.
The show removing dream sequences like the above actually downplays Bran's importance.
And you know Bran's not a charismatic warrior like Jon and Robb. He's just a depressed and disabled little boy so people set low expectations of what a character like that can accomplish. He's the type of character people would think is the support to the main hero.
It's not 1 for 1, but as a character he's overshadowed by his old brothers in the same way that Kamina overshadows Simon in Gurren Lagann.
Anyways, GRRM has already mentioned that he wrote the prologue after he wrote Bran's chapter. He wrote Bran's chapter first.
And you are meant to think that Bran is young King Arthur in the books at least until he's crippled. The initial expectation of Bran was the correct one. The journey there was just different.
The framing of Bran as a main character doesn't come across in the show. He comes as more of a secondary character with about as much prominence as Theon Greyjoy.
I just thought of him as a kid. I never figured he was young King Arthur, and none of the books really build him up as someone you would want to follow.
Hell, he isn't even particularly likeable.
GRRM plays straight just a many fantasy tropes as he subverts. Chosen ones, prophecy twists, important characters dying quick, stupid deaths, people ignoring the greater enemy in the face of their own petty political squabbles have all been around since Tolkien if not before.
But it seems that D&D assumed ASoIaF was good only because it subverted expectations, and not because it was simply WELL-WRITTEN.
But it seems that D&D assumed ASoIaF was good only because it subverted expectations, and not because it was simply WELL-WRITTEN.
They admitted that all they cared about was getting to the red wedding, and it shows
Absolutely wonderful video.
That "first they came for" analogy is so insulting I can't even.
This was, by far, the most intelligent, coherent break down of GoT I've watched. Lindsay doesn't ramble, her point by point tear down isn't emotional based but fact based with stinging, poignant example after example. The amount of alcohol she kept accumulating in the background was also expertly done.
I am now officially done with GoT until the next book is released, until then, as always, fuck D & D.
I am now officially done with GoT until the next book is released, until then, as always, fuck D & D.
"Look, I voice acted for a video game about wizards and moons and even that is still smarter than this scene."
I do think that the idea behind why Dany is dead and Bran is king is because Bran sees the humanity in everyone and Dany does not.
It's implied that Bran values all life from the deleted scene in the script and Daenerys only values the lives of people who she doesn't have anything against.
She's merciless towards anyone that would oppose her which includes people like slavers and rapists but could also include otherwise decent people like Tyrion and Dickon Tarly.
So what Benioff and Weiss are inelegantly saying are that we cheered her on because she directed her brutality against the right people but her views of who the right people aren't always going to be the right people.
She has a mode of conduct against her enemies that is brutal and she's not going to change. The show does build that up. It's just that people thought it was to make Dany look cool rather than foreshadowing and making a statement.
But I hate that they used "the first they came for" approach. It's a little insulting
House Baratheon's revival.
But you see her killing people that even by medieval era style morals were bad people bu methods that's not particularly out there by their standards is equal to killing minorities or political groups that were used as scapegoats who were ultimately innocent and didn't do anything other than being different
Same thing really
I mean he's named after Brandon the Builder who saved the world from the Others and became king afterwards. That gives him more import inherently.
I think PQ got it years ago when he said that Bran is the closest the series comes to a sole protagonist:
I mean early chapter Bran is patterned after Simon Snowcloak and Wart. Precocious, little kids that grow up to be king.
Anyways, Bran's not meant to be charismatic but books do state that he would make a good lord and that he's smart enough to make for a maester which coincidentally something Tyrion and Samwell share as well.
(Also that line quote is nice foreshadowing considering Bran becomes an unlimited fountain of knowledge.)
So Bran's kingship is really centered on what if the smart, outcasts( Brienne, Tyrion, Davos, Bran and Sam) ruled society rather than macho warriors or popular dudes.
Anyways, your mileage may vary on how effective it is for you but Bran's POV really pounds it in your head that Jaime ruined his life and took his dreams and now he's this miserable, self-hating child. So we are meant to have empathize with him utterly.
...
The smart outcasts in the books include Jon and Dany and not Brienne and Davos though... And as per the show, Dany dies and Jon is exiled. Even though these are the two characters who actually get whole books and arcs where they realy do some serious smart administration and rule. In the books, Brienne is the macho warrior, not Jon.
Characters in the books who have actual experience in administration at the end of book 5 : Tyrion, Bran, Jon and Dany.
I am sorry, but how the fuck does the emotionless robo Bran on the show see humanity more than Dany on the show? We have the Dany who gives water to dying slaves on the crucifix and Bran who just sits there with a blank stare on his face and you think Bran has more humanity?
The fact that Bran says 'Why do you think I came all this way' at the end indicates that he pretty much set things in motion at the beginning, knew that KL was going to burn and yet did nothing so that he could become King. I see him as more villainous than Dany on the show. Dany became mad and snapped. Bran deliberately kept silent to become king.
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Comparing Bran to Simon from Gurren Lagann like it was Bran's story all along makes no sense.
Fucker was absent for an entire season of the show. Nothing about the show's resolution makes sense but Bran being King is the one thing possibly in the universe that actually makes less than zero sense, it makes negative sense.
Fucker was absent for an entire season of the show. Nothing about the show's resolution makes sense but Bran being King is the one thing possibly in the universe that actually makes less than zero sense, it makes negative sense.
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Ramin Djawadi's music was good and some of the acting was good.
That's about it.
Lots of great lines in this video, but the lasting part for me was how the show is no longer rewatchable because the ending did not deliver the payoff the show built up. This is in direct contrast to shows like Breaking Bad where even knowing how it ends the show is still exciting and enjoyable to watch because it isn't all buildings to something great.
Nah, that's revisionist slander. Outside of the writing, S8 was a marvel of filmmaking, from top to bottom. Costume design, cinematography, visuals, art design, it was a master class. It was simply all in service of bad writing.
Nah, that's revisionist slander. Outside of the writing, S8 was a marvel of filmmaking, from top to bottom. Costume design, cinematography, visuals, art design, it was a master class. It was simply all in service of bad writing.
Yup. An ending to a series that is both satisfying and intelligently done, that gives back to the characters and their respective buildup over the series is not only incredibly rewarding but also makes said series a FUN re-watch. Dexter is another example I can site that completely fucked up its characters and therefor, it's ending as a series, such as GoT, is not only unintelligent, insulting garbage, it's not re-watchable, the pay off isn't worth it.
From years ago by Preston Jacobs:
Anyways, Jon and Dany are more subversions of that since they're specifically Byronic heroes.
For instance, Jon is constructed to be the eternal outcast but because he's the rightful heir, there's a sense of irony to it. The guy who should be at the top of the food chain is instead forever looked down on by people. I think GRRM gets a kick out of that.
Jon is exiled and Dany dies.
Maybe that explains why it was obvious a whole season away. I wonder if the Red Wedding is more subtle and less obvious in the books? Never read them myself though.
It literally is "punching nazis makes you the real nazi" levels of stupid.
All this does not matter - You were talking about smart outcasts - Jon and Dany are among the few young characters who actually do smart administration, rule, bring about innovative new ideas like green houses and irrigation canals. Not Brienne and Davos. GRRM devotes a lot of time setting up Jon and Dany as rulers giving them entire arcs where they learn about the actual hardship of ruling - he does not give that to Brienne and Davos - who are tertiary characters in the series.
As for this:
Yeah, no.
This is the POV count of the characters in the 5 books so far:
Tyrion Lannister: 47
Jon Snow: 42
Arya Stark: 33
Dany: 31
Sansa: 24
Bran: 21
Jaime:17
Cersei: 12
Jon literally has twice the POV chapters and story than Bran in the books.
These are character screen times after season 8:
Tyrion: 679 mins
Jon: 651 mins
Dany: 524 mins
Cersei: 425 mins
Sansa: 418 mins
Arya: 393 mins
Jaime: 393 mins
Bran: 224 mins
So no, the show did not build up Jon and Dany at the expense of Bran. In fact if you look at the POV chapters and corresponding screen time, it was Arya who suffered the most while characters like Sansa and Cersei got more writing on the show. GRRM's central 5 characters were Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran. D&D were just more interested in writing for Sansa and Cersei on the show. Arya has not had a proper story in 3 seasons and she had pretty much no story once she got to Westeros other than killing off some side characters.
I would say that the show build up Sansa at the expense of Bran. Bran is the rightful heir of WF - with actual experience of ruling WF and the North when Robb was gone. But once he actually got to WF he was nerfed into an automaton who just sat there while Sansa walked around instructing actual armorers on armor making because girl power.
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Well, the Simon-Bran comparison is because they both feel overshadowed by their cooler, older bros who die in the early part of the story. It's more about framing. I mean this paragraph gives Simon-Kamina vibes to me:
Little kid character feels overshadowed by his amazingly charismatic big bro. Big bro dies and little bro ends up reaching a higher position than the cooler, older brother ever did.
Anyways, the show downplays Bran's importance a lot in context and barely even scratches the lore of the Children of the Forest which is vitally important to Bran becoming king.
Like, the Children of the Forest all know that Bran is going to become king (or at least planning for it) and they're shaping him to take care of Westeros for after the war.
They are,in essence, hand-crafting Westeros' new king for the people because men....
And mankind is only allowing room for man:
Emilia Clarke was great considering the material and it spawned some great memes.
You can't really use screentime as a good metric because characters like Bran and Arya have isolated stories whereas Cersei and Jaime criss-cross stories with other characers all the time. A character like Cersei looks much more important when you actually check how much page time she has in chapters that aren't his. A lot.
Arya is also a less important character than Bran even if she does get more page time because Arya's not a messianic character like Bran, Jon and Dany.
Anyways, Davos is an advisor and we see him do plenty of advising with Stannis. Brienne's not really an advisor but she has input as LC of the KG and is one of the most honorable people ever so she has a purpose being there as well.
Now on Dany and Jon, it's an exploration of how they succeed and fail and develop sometimes in the wrong ways.
Like, Dany's experiences in Meereen help shape her into the Fire and Blood tyrant that she'll be by the end of the story for example.
Sansa also has isolated stories in the later books - but if you look at the show, her screentime progressively increases in later seasons. So while D&D had all important Bran sit out a season, they were giving Sansa new plots and stories and writing additional material for her. D&D pretty much did not write anything for Bran in Winterfell while he was there at the same time as Sansa. Once he got to WF, it was the chance for them to write him as playing a role in taking down the dead/Others - that part went to Arya. Or being a leader of WF - that part went to Sansa. Bran Stark actually got shafted in favor of his sisters. Not because of Jon and Dany.
So again, it's not Jon and Dany getting build up - they actually got more build up in the books as leaders - an entire book showing Jon as a smart, strategic, politically savvy leader - whereas on the show he's a naive fool. They got the screen time on the show that's equivalent or less than what they got in the books.
Arya is GRRM's lead female character. She was one of the first characters GRRM created along with Bran. There's a lot of queen symbolism in her story (Nymeria). She is a powerful warg. She learned about the North from Ned like Jon and Bran - we often see her thinking about Ned's teaching - the lone wolf dies and pack survives is a saying that often crops up in her story, not Sansa's. We hear again and again about her bonds with the small folk. She is pretty much communicating with Bran via weirwood trees and is most likely heading to the wall as a master of languages, politics, poisons and super lie detector as soon as she hears about what happened to Jon when fake Arya or Jeyne Poole gets to Braavos.
On the show, she had nothing to do and no relevance. She killed the NK - a show created character and then just left Westeros again. And that's it. We still have no idea what is the role of the GRRM's lead female character in the books.
She nailed it, finally. She really got to the heart of what went wrong here: S8 didn't ruin the show; S5-8 ruined the show. All the characters suffered after S5, and it was noted heavily by many as the struggle went on. S8 only finished what had already begun years earlier.
Probably why I felt absolutely nothing when this ended. Not anger, not pain. Just "well, that sucked. Time to go have a bowl and watch some Chernobyl".
Yet, ofc that was when they exploded in popularity and rode that wave to acclaim, fame, contracts, and critical awards. So fuck it. We live in a society.
Probably why I felt absolutely nothing when this ended. Not anger, not pain. Just "well, that sucked. Time to go have a bowl and watch some Chernobyl".
Yet, ofc that was when they exploded in popularity and rode that wave to acclaim, fame, contracts, and critical awards. So fuck it. We live in a society.
I've never so quickly gone from love to complete apathy over a piece of media before . The video reminds me why I had to unfollow the OT, I just couldn't bear to read anyone defending what the show turned into, how it ended.
I think her initial series is done, not sure if there is something else lined up
Oh, so you're job is to just drive by troll every thread you post in.
This is the GoT equivalent of the Plinkett Phantom Menace review without the lame humor and its better articulated and backed up very thoughtfully.