Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes

[PlanetSmasher]

She's mocking their one "joke".

I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

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Again, the problem is that she's mocking the joke by reusing it without actually offering any commentary ON the joke.

I know a lot of people believe in the maxim of "if you have to explain a joke then it's not a funny joke", but when you're using legitimately offensive humor to attack someone you have to couch it in SOMETHING, otherwise people will take it at face value and the face value of "I identify as" jokes is inherently hurtful.

 

[Kyuuji]

She's mocking their one "joke".
I don't see how it could be taken any other way.

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How is she mocking it though? Like it's literally indistinguishable from the transphobic joke it aims to mock.

 

[Arkanim94]

Ellis gets too worked up when she is on twitter.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

At the end of the day Ellis is a cis woman hence why she didn't realise that using a transphobic joke to combat transphobic may have not been the best of ideas.

So a thread was created criticizing Lindsay Ellis who was mocking the usage of that lame transphobic joke, not Ricky Gervais who sincerely believes in that rhetoric? Why do we get our axes out for the branches but not the tree?

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Because we can cut down the tree without having to resort to using the same tacit that the bigots use, otherwise you're further marginalising the trans community and normalizing transphobic jokes.

 

[Sasliquid]

Yeah it's pretty lame. I feel some "breadtubers" are developing cults of personalities and taking any criticism in bad faith

 

[PickledCucumber]

Lindsay Ellis, no... :(

 

[sHitman]

Ricky why please come back to Steve and Karl.

 

[FantaSoda]

At the end of the day Ellis is a cis woman hence why she didn't realise that using a transphobic joke to combat transphobic may have not been the best of ideas.



Because we can cut down the tree without having to resort to using the same tacit that the bigots use, otherwise you're further marginalising the trans community and normalizing transphobic jokes.

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Totally fair point. However, do you think it is fair to generalize cis women like you just did?

 

[Syril]

It seems odd to remove intent and character from the context of that joke. Its disingenuous to act like she isn't mocking Ricky.

The response to should be " I get that your are mocking Ricky and his ilk for the use of that "joke" , but to using their joke against them doesn't have the desired effect"

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That's what like 90% of the critical replies were.

 

[Volimar]

It'd be really nice if the people that plop in here with their "no big deal" takes would take the time to listen to our trans members about why it's not appropriate for a cis woman to use that kind of joke in a way that perpetuates its use and contributes to normalizing it.

Totally fair point. However, do you think it is fair to generalize cis women like you just did?

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The statement doesn't generalize cis women, it criticizes one cis woman.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Totally fair point. However, do you think it is fair to generalize cis women like you just did?

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Lindsay is the kind of person who very proudly wears her ally status on her sleeve and as such we all expect more thought out of her, especially when she's trying to roast a known bigot for his shitty attempts at humor. Unfortunately it appears her privilege blinded her to the fact that repeating a bigoted joke and only changing one word without any actual reflection or exploration of why that joke is hurtful just perpetuates the damaging rhetoric that created the joke in the first place.

 

[Patsy]

No offense, but cis people in this very thread dismissing her (a cis woman) "jokes" really doesn't help at fucking all. Transphobic jokes are still transphobic even if you use them ironically and ESPECIALLY if you're fucking cis. Having a trans friend doesn't fucking change that. She also made those tweets at the worst fucking time with what is currently going down in the community, you would think an "ally" would know better.

 

[Kyuuji]

If it looks like a transphobic joke, reads like one and is received like one then it's a transphobic joke.

The person writing it doesn't have to be transphobic for that to be the case. They are, however, someone that has downplayed non-binary concerns and painted the community out to be some rabid entity.

This "I'm an ally honest, but please don't criticize my favourite personality tho" nonsense needs to go in the bin. For both the forum and Lindsay.

 

[Bio]

Eh, those come off more as gags about the one joke the alt-right has - rather than actual jokes at the expense of trans people.

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Even if that's true, I think if trans people are saying this is offensive and hurtful, we don't get to decide that it isn't.

 

[Nappuccino]

It'd be really nice if the people that plop in here with their "no big deal" takes would take the time to listen to our trans members about why it's not appropriate for a cis woman to use that kind of joke in a way that perpetuates its use and contributes to normalizing it.




The statement doesn't generalize cis women, it criticizes one cis woman.

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As a cis-man, let me affirm that listening is not that hard. It's baffling how few try.

 

[Sunster]

Was she drunk or something?

 

[Xaszatm]

What is it with non-trans folk coming in to tell trans folk how and when to be angry and hurt?

 

[Lukar]

I can sort of understand where she may have been coming from, maybe trying to demonstrate how unfunny those kinds of "jokes" are and how stupid they come across.

Doesn't mean this was the way to go about it though. I hope she comes to understand the issue.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Why in the world is she getting in to a Twitter shit fest with Gervais of all people.

 

[Kyuuji]

What is it with non-trans folk coming in to tell trans folk how and when to be angry and hurt?

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Oh no no, we don't get to decide who to criticize and who's being harmful. If they're seen as an ally by cis people then we mustn't criticize or decry them, while simultaneously being told that we're the ones deifying them.

 

[Joeytj]

So, what's your point? Some trans people suck so we shouldn't call these issues out when they happen?

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My point is that I actually have more issues with a trans person saying sexist things and being sexist (an actual person I know) than with Lindsay missing the mark with a joke she deleted intentioned to be critical of a transphobe like Gervais

I get it. Lindsay is a "famous person" and like other public figures, her mistakes are amplified by 1,000 compared to others, because she and others put her to a higher standard (although she has argued against line of thinking) I think that's how the logic of making a big deal out of her joke goes, plus her relationship with Contrapoints (which I still can't believe she's now being "cancelled" too. It's crazy to me) or the rest of "Breadtube".

And I believe that actions also speak louder than words and even other words speak louder than others from time to time. Lindsay does get carried away with some jokes (like that one about Znyder's mom) but it's more to do with her overreaching than with her being a bad person or even transphobic.

She deleted the tweet and no doubt understands a lot of people didn't take well to that tweet and she should've avoided the joke anyway.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

Yeah it's pretty lame. I feel some "breadtubers" are developing cults of personalities and taking any criticism in bad faith

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This is my feeling too. When someone asked if we're all coming for breadtube now I think it's more that when breadtube was getting its start it was a pretty novel thing so we wanted to laud it as much as possible because we wanted it to stay and provide its underrepresented voice (or that's how I felt), but now it's established enough to begin showing some cracks, not to mention that breadtube was never really so ambitious so as to look beyond the scope of individual personality (they on the whole never really had a thoroughly developed mutually intelligible philosophy, for example), and the intention is often to entertain and provide negative arguments against the center-right to rebuff their advances, which is fine, too, but I don't think the left is arguing from quite the same position of vulnerability anymore so the value of that might be being somewhat reassessed.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Why in the world is she getting in to a Twitter shit fest with Gervais of all people.

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Gervais is an easy target and shitting on him publicly means he'll almost definitely respond like a childish idiot (which he of course did), so she gets to bathe in the adoration of her public for being brave.

Then she tripped all over herself trying to follow up.

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

As a straight male, I know nothing about any of this but I know that we need to be considerate of our trans friends and allies and we need to be open to criticism from them and learn from their perspective. It's not always easy or clear for us, but we need to be trying. I know Lindsay knows better, and I hope she can learn from this.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

Why in the world is she getting in to a Twitter shit fest with Gervais of all people.

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Not to dismiss the shittiness of the jokes she pulled but it's worth noting that part of the context here is that Ricky Gervais is an insecure shitgibbon of a man who has taken it on himself to namesearch on Twitter and reply to all his haters irrespective of their notability. It's not so much that Ellis is getting into it with Gervais so much as Gervais gets into it with everybody, and this is one of the few times he's gotten into it with someone willing to make a (mealy-mouthed attempt at) biting back

 

[Messofanego]

Was she drunk or something?

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When she's drunk, she'll make a video about it.

 

[Kyuuji]

plus her relationship with Contrapoints (which I still can't believe she's now being "cancelled" too. It's crazy to me)

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[Volimar]

My point is that I actually have more issues with a trans person saying sexist things and being sexist (an actual person I know) than with Lindsay missing the mark with a joke she deleted intentioned to be critical of a transphobe like Gervais

I get it. Lindsay is a "famous person" and like other public figures, her mistakes are amplified by 1,000 compared to others, because she and others put her to a higher standard (although she has argued against line of thinking) I think that's how the logic of making a big deal out of her joke goes, plus her relationship with Contrapoints (which I still can't believe she's now being "cancelled" too. It's crazy to me) or the rest of "Breadtube".

And I believe that actions also speak louder than words and even other words speak louder than others from time to time. Lindsay does get carried away with some jokes (like that one about Znyder's mom) but it's more to do with her overreaching than with her being a bad person or even transphobic.

She deleted the tweet and no doubt understands a lot of people didn't take well to that tweet and she should've avoided the joke anyway.

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She deleted one of the jokes, not both, and if she thinks that way let her say it. Again, being an ally most of the time doesn't make you immune from criticism when you do wrong. I don't think she's transphobic but I do think that making transphobic jokes when you have her kind of influence helps perpetuate and normalize them.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

But neither of them are cancelled because they actually hold themselves accountable? I think you might be missing the entire point here.

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lol Contra holds herself accountable. Good joke

Also not surprising with Lindsay, recently it feels like shes getting like Contra where she's getting "edgier" for lack of a better word, conflating any criticism as the same as the abuse they get, distinctly remember a tweet where she laughed at lefttube for considering her left which I believe has been deleted since I couldn't find it and this. Like with Contra, I doubt anybody wants to cancel her for it, even if she thinks so herself, but she can and did do better before

 

[Joeytj]

Why in the world is she getting in to a Twitter shit fest with Gervais of all people.

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Gervais was randomly and weirdly responding to mentions of his name on Twitter and a lot of people, including Lindsay, was pointing this out and making fun of his lame and unoriginal jokes about trans people. Gervais then responded directly to Lindsay by just bragging about how much he's worth because he writes jokes. Lindsay's response made him delete the tweet and everything.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

lol Contra holds herself accountable. Good joke

Also not surprising with Lindsay, recently it feels like shes getting like Contra where she's getting "edgier" for lack of a better word, conflating any criticism as the same as the abuse they get, distinctly remember a tweet where she laughed at lefttube for considering her left which I believe has been deleted since I couldn't find it and this. Like with Contra, I doubt anybody wants to cancel her for it, even if she thinks so herself, but she can and did do better before

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One thing I've noticed is that people like Lindsay who get tons and tons of shitty twitter hot takes hurled their way even for their reasonable content are starting to disregard ANY pushback they get, even when they do fuck up like in this case. They're so utterly used to being sent stupid bad faith takes that they're viewing all attempts to correct their behavior, even from well-intentioned people, as trolling to be ridiculed or discounted outright.

My honest opinion is that twitter just brings out the worst of virtually everyone.

 

[Kyuuji]

She deleted one of the jokes, not both, and if she thinks that way let her say it. Again, being an ally most of the time doesn't make you immune from criticism when you do wrong. I don't think she's transphobic but I do think that making transphobic jokes when you have her kind of influence helps perpetuate and normalize them.

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Making transphobic jokes *after getting bent out of shape defending Contrapoints and painting NB people out to be some rabid group that's never satiated.

I'm aware that this isn't you, but many dismiss it out of hand thinking that the sentiment is being applied solely because of isolated incidents.

The fact is this sentiment goes back months and has only reached a head the past few weeks.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

Not to dismiss the shittiness of the jokes she pulled but it's worth noting that part of the context here is that Ricky Gervais is an insecure shitgibbon of a man who has taken it on himself to namesearch on Twitter and reply to all his haters irrespective of their notability. It's not so much that Ellis is getting into it with Gervais so much as Gervais gets into it with everybody, and this is one of the few times he's gotten into it with someone willing to make a (mealy-mouthed attempt at) biting back

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Yeah that's kinda of my point. Gervais is essentially a professional asshole. You gain nothing by engaging with him.

 

[Deleted member 18360]

Saying that Contrapoints has been 'cancelled' is pretty ridiculous. Personally I just got sick of having to try to read between the lines on if she's really really truscummy or not and if so how much. It's just tiring to be invested in it and that's only me having a certain feeling about a situation not me hopping on a bandwagon. Everyone is going to have a line where they just sort of lose investment in trying to defend someone, etc.

 

[Ketkat]

My point is that I actually have more issues with a trans person saying sexist things and being sexist (an actual person I know) than with Lindsay missing the mark with a joke she deleted intentioned to be critical of a transphobe like Gervais

I get it. Lindsay is a "famous person" and like other public figures, her mistakes are amplified by 1,000 compared to others, because she and others put her to a higher standard (although she has argued against line of thinking) I think that's how the logic of making a big deal out of her joke goes, plus her relationship with Contrapoints (which I still can't believe she's now being "cancelled" too. It's crazy to me) or the rest of "Breadtube".

And I believe that actions also speak louder than words and even other words speak louder than others from time to time. Lindsay does get carried away with some jokes (like that one about Znyder's mom) but it's more to do with her overreaching than with her being a bad person or even transphobic.

She deleted the tweet and no doubt understands a lot of people didn't take well to that tweet and she should've avoided the joke anyway.

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Your point is that these other issues exist, so we shouldn't be talking about issues that normalize transphobia. Regardless of her intention, 'jokes' like these normalize the idea that trans identities are jokes or able to be compared to complete nonsense like an attack helicopter. And to be clear, she did not delete both jokes, but only one. And it took her quite some time to actually do that as well.

You can't continually sit here and tell trans people what we should or should not care about when we are the ones who are actually affected by these issues and the consequences that arise from them. You can't sit here and tell us what has the most weight, or trying to mock us by comparing us to cancel culture nonsense for daring to criticize contrapoints as well as the simple truth is that you do not understand these issues the same way that we do.

 

[SCB360]

Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine

 

[Rangerx]

Someone explain this to me. I'm genuinely confused.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

One thing I've noticed is that people like Lindsay who get tons and tons of shitty twitter hot takes hurled their way even for their reasonable content are starting to disregard ANY pushback they get, even when they do fuck up like in this case. They're so utterly used to being sent stupid bad faith takes that they're viewing all attempts to correct their behavior, even from well-intentioned people, as trolling to be ridiculed or discounted outright.

My honest opinion is that twitter just brings out the worst of virtually everyone.

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Yeah, like I can understand why her and Natalie are turning out this way, like even on a good day the amount of vitriol they must receive is gonna be pretty fucking bad since they're both left-leaning women content creators, plus Natalie also gets all the transphobes. But its still disappointing to see them respond this way.

Someone explain this to me. I'm genuinely confused.

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She made a transphobic joke to make fun of Ricky Gervais making the same joke. Her intent was clearly to mock him but it doesn't change the fact that the joke is a harmful one and she could be seen as unintentionally giving it validity. So people told her so and now we are discussing it

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine

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Taking the joke at face value is precisely the problem. There's no content to the joke beyond "trans people identify as weird things hur hur hur" so taking the joke at face value just exposes how hurtful and dumb the joke is in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine

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Do you people ever read threads

 

[Kyuuji]

Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine

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This humour in particular is for transphobes.

You cool with blackface? Recently that was seen as acceptable in comedy. That's just comedy for racists right? Some humour isn't for everyone after all, and that's fine.

Wondering where the line for acceptable is drawn between transphobic things and the things that aren't seen as acceptable in comedy.

 

[Static]

Disappointing.

 

[Eidan]

Ellis gets too worked up when she is on twitter.

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All these Twitter controversies just make me think that Ellis and Wynn would be better off just hiring a social media manager.

 

[Arkanim94]

Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine

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man, imagine a world where trans folks aren't shitted on every moment of the day.

 

[Acorn]

I dunno, I get why people may drop her or whatever but for me personally I'm willing to put this down to a stupid mistake. For me, she's earned the benefit of the doubt.

But I totally appreciate why people would feel differently from me.

 

[Ketkat]

It'd be really nice if the people that plop in here with their "no big deal" takes would take the time to listen to our trans members about why it's not appropriate for a cis woman to use that kind of joke in a way that perpetuates its use and contributes to normalizing it.

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This would be nice, but I don't realistically think that's ever going to happen. It's definitely getting more and more frustrating as trans and non-binary people are routinely talked over or dismissed as not knowing what we're talking about when the issues are about us. Like we're unreasonable for daring to be hurt by someone featuring a transmedicalist in a video, or throwing NB people under the bus, or now making transphobic jokes. It's always about the impact that these people have on the majority in power with the issues that they actually address and hurt never weighing in as closely.

It's not even really an Era problem but one that you can see multiple trans and NB people on Twitter talking about as well where they're afraid to speak up about the harmful things that Contrapoints said out of fear of a large group of cis fans attacking them for it.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

All these Twitter controversies just make me think that Ellis and Wynn would be better off just hiring a social media manager.

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Don't they already have them? I feel like I've heard at least one of them mention something like that before in a video. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else?

 

[Khanimus]

I have a hard time identifying what the joke even is that it warranted being out there at all. What is the "zinger", at Gervais' expense or not, that she thought she had here?

 

[Eidan]

I have a hard time identifying what the joke even is that it warranted being out there at all. What is the "zinger", at Gervais' expense or not, that she thought she had here?

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I got the impression that the joke was meant to draw attention to Gervais' transphobic jokes by making him the butt of a transphobic joke. Maybe? Either way, bad joke.

 

[Infcabbage]

As a straight male, I know nothing about any of this but I know that we need to be considerate of our trans friends and allies and we need to be open to criticism from them and learn from their perspective. It's not always easy or clear for us, but we need to be trying. I know Lindsay knows better, and I hope she can learn from this.

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That's the worst part about this, I was so sure that she knew better. She should have.