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TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
I remember six months ago and people here would make jokes about how Contrapoints and Lindsay Ellis would be the last youtubers standing uncancelled since we loved them so much.

We severely underestimated ourselves.

But seriously Lindsay make better jokes.

You can criticize a joke and still like someone.

the joke is unoriginal but the unoriginality is the point. if someone isn't trans and doesn't have that perspective it reads as mocking Gervais for his boring joke. I think it's pretty obvious she wasn't intending to be transphobic.

edit: to make my point more clear, she should apologize for the lazy and offensive joke and not make it again, learn from the experience, and everyone should move on.
 
Last edited:

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,409
I remember six months ago and people here would make jokes about how Contrapoints and Lindsay Ellis would be the last youtubers standing uncancelled since we loved them so much.

We severely underestimated ourselves.

But seriously Lindsay make better jokes.

Eh. I still like Dave Chapelle, but I'll criticize him at every turn.

No reason not to do the same with Lindsey or any other person you like.
 

Catvoca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,182
Eh, those come off more as gags about the one joke the alt-right has - rather than actual jokes at the expense of trans people.

It's a rather obvious layer of abstraction that you're ignoring here.
Yeah, she's saying Rick only makes the one joke, and then purposefully using that shitty one joke he says to make fun of him. It's not a good joke but the intent is clearly not transphobic
 

Duane

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,433
She's not telling the same joke he is, she's mimicking him telling it. If someone says "your mama's a dickhead" and then you reply in a nasally dopey voice that's supposed to sound like them "your mama's a dickhead", that doesn't mean you share the sentiment, it means you're making fun of how dumb they sound.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Didn't she make an entire video about the ethics of satire? Something something "clarity of purpose"

She's not telling the same joke he is, she's mimicking him telling it. If someone says "your mama's a dickhead" and then you reply in a nasally dopey voice that's supposed to sound like them "your mama's a dickhead", that doesn't mean you share the sentiment, it means you're making fun of how dumb they sound.

Twitter is a text medium though, so if she was trying to do a nasally dopey voice, it doesn't come across since the text is identical to a sincere transphobic joke. In fact, there already is a nasally dopey voice text equivalent in the form of aLteRnAtInG CaPs and she didn't use it.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Again, I think she would like it to be a dig at the joke, but explain how exactly this straight up repeating of the joke makes fun of it or comments on it at all?
In that its attempting to mock the identity (specifically the name) of the person she's trying to dunk on.

Like, Gervais is insecure enough to name search himself to start twitter fights. Mocking him via use of his own name is fertile ground for humor at his expense. The through line here of what she was after is pretty clear.

But her tweet is some grade school level "I know you are but what am I" weak shit. Its so goddamn bad that the only thing that stands out is her parroting the one transphobic joke in an attempt to use it as a step to dunk on Gervais.

An ironic subversion of that bullshit that actually worked would probably be really effective and funny, as at its core it should shred that argument while mocking the target for posting it. This ain't that. Not by a long, long ways.

But being a tweet comic isn't her job, or why she's popular. Not a big deal. Not like she posted a "Why Song of the South is an underappreciated gem in the Disney library" video or something. She made a lame joke, it by virtue of trying to mock a lame transphobe joke gives a bit of air to said lame transphobe joke, and that merits pointing out if she chooses to spend her free time wading into the verbal debate with transphobes.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,409
She's not telling the same joke he is, she's mimicking him telling it. If someone said "your mama's a dickhead" and then you reply in a nasally dopey voice that's supposed to sound like them "your mama's a dickhead", that doesn't mean you share the sentiment, it means you're making fun of how dumb they sound.

Social media continues not to be the best place for nuanced jokes that require a lot of vocal or physical inflection.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
People beefing in public on Twitter about who is most pathetic and insecure.

They all lose.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,470
Social media continues not to be the best place for nuanced jokes that require a lot of vocal or physical inflection.

Yup. Twitter is like a siren song for the subconscious to go "hey I just thought of this super clever joke" without testing or checking with oneself to make sure said joke is ACTUALLY as smart as your subconscious thinks it is in the moment.

The problem is that making a dumb joke vocally is easy to forget since it's said and then gone. Twitter is like painting your dumb joke on a damn billboard. You can't delete it for real.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
You can be disappointed in someone without wanting them to disappear. Most everyone here just wants her to acknowledge her jokes were harmful and dumb and apologize.
This. I don't think Lindsay intended to be transphobic, but this was still shitty and incredibly thoughtless and it is something she should apologize for.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Again, I think she would like it to be a dig at the joke, but explain how exactly this straight up repeating of the joke makes fun of it or comments on it at all?
It's an attempt to dunk on Gervais for using those jokes and dunk on him for his insecure vanity searching behavior.

The second joke (which appears to actually be the first if they're timestamped in the same timezone?) works as an actual joke, "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais" makes it about him being insecure and offended at everything on twitter - she's deliberately left out the identity aspect. It's not actually a straight up repetition. The first joke listed doesn't work though cause there's not really a joke to it and it's just a copy/paste with his name included.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
It's an attempt to dunk on Gervais for using those jokes and dunk on him for his insecure vanity searching behavior.

The second joke (which appears to actually be the first if they're timestamped in the same timezone?) works as an actual joke, "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais" makes it about him being insecure and offended at everything on twitter - she's deliberately left out the identity aspect. It's not actually a straight up repetition. The first joke listed doesn't work though cause there's not really a joke to it and it's just a copy/paste with his name included.

Neither joke works.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
Yeah. Huh. Not the way to do this.

I get why a cis person mightn't have the right perspective to know why this was a really bad idea, but I can only lend so much leeway.

Let's see if she shows awareness of why this was a bad joke, or if she just tries to shield herself from criticism by, essentially, arguing that her privilege excuses her ignorance.
 

Infcabbage

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Portland, Oregon
Ironic transphobia is still just plain transphobia. This really shouldn't be hard to grasp, especially from someone who consistently makes "woke take" video essays on media.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Living in a country that is still years behind in wokeness and enlightenment, I've learned to distinguished between allies who commit mistakes and ones that are definetly not allies or are even out to get me for being gay.

Lindsay still has a better "woke" to "not woke" ratio than 99% of the people out there with her reach and talent. She isn't transphobic. She makes mistakes.

I've bumped into xenophobic, sexist and racist comments from trans people and non-binary people who consider themselves the wokest of the woke, so go figure.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
It's an attempt to dunk on Gervais for using those jokes and dunk on him for his insecure vanity searching behavior.

The second joke (which appears to actually be the first if they're timestamped in the same timezone?) works as an actual joke, "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais" makes it about him being insecure and offended at everything on twitter - she's deliberately left out the identity aspect. It's not actually a straight up repetition. The first joke listed doesn't work though cause there's not really a joke to it and it's just a copy/paste with his name included.
Nah, the second joke still is pretty much repetition of the shitty "did you assume my gender" joke.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
Does the context of her intent not matter or am I misreading the context from the OP?
It's important to keep in mind, but there's also plenty explaining why it's hurt people either way. IF you don't mean to hurt people and you accidentally do so, they still got hurt by what you did, and if it was an accident you should still apologize.

Like if I accidentally crash into you with my car. I doubt it being something I didn't mean to do is going to completely satisfy you by itself, without at least, a genuine apology.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,281
in bad taste, probably wasnt the best choice... but it was deleted and it's probably best to just move on. there's little reasons to make a big deal out of this. she isn't your enemy.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
So a thread was created criticizing Lindsay Ellis who was mocking the usage of that lame transphobic joke, not Ricky Gervais who sincerely believes in that rhetoric? Why do we get our axes out for the branches but not the tree?
First, there's no axes here, just disappointment and hoping she'll do better.

Second, Ricky Gervais is a known piece of shit so pointing out he's been posting transphobic stuff at this point is like posting any random Ben Shapiro tweet. Then again people on this very forum have defended him in the past him so maybe you have a point.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,947
Following on from this, just bluegh.

bd9b2e62-70c0-444d-a3vjga.jpeg
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,453
San Francisco
Ironic transphobia is still just plain transphobia. This really shouldn't be hard to grasp, especially from someone who consistently makes "woke take" video essays on media.
The context explains but doesn't excuse the behavior. Even with the context applied they're still dumb jokes that don't really land.
It's important to keep in mind, but there's also plenty explaining why it's hurt people either way. IF you don't mean to hurt people and you accidentally do so, they still got hurt by what you did, and if it was an accident you should still apologize.

Like if I accidentally crash into you with my car. I doubt it being something I didn't mean to do is going to completely satisfy you by itself, without at least, a genuine apology.

In context she obviously thinks the joke format is both not funny and hurtful shown in the series of posts before her use. The setup shows that she is explicitly using it satirically as a mirror to show how ridiculous Ricky is being. Am I wrong here?
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Living in a country that is still years behind in wokeness and enlightenment, I've learned to distinguished between allies who commit mistakes and ones that are definetly not allies or are even out to get me for being gay.

Lindsay still has a better "woke" to "not woke" ratio than 99% of the people out there with her reach and talent. She isn't transphobic. She makes mistakes.

I've bumped into xenophobic, sexist and racist comments from trans people and non-binary people who consider themselves the wokest of the woke, so go figure.

So, what's your point? Some trans people suck so we shouldn't call these issues out when they happen?
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,470
Following on from this, just bluegh.

bd9b2e62-70c0-444d-a3vjga.jpeg

I realize she's trying to defend her friend, but man. Natalie has been given so many opportunities to dig herself out of the pit she blew into the surface of the earth and she keeps dropping grenades to make the pit deeper instead.

What's the point in going to bat for Contra now when she herself clearly doesn't want to climb back out?
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Does the context of her intent not matter or am I misreading the context from the OP?

Intent ain't magic. Most of the people here probably like the vast majority of Lindsay's content especially since she became independent from Channel Awesome...but she's got a history of making jokes like this, and people are tired of it. There's only so much benefit of the doubt and second-second chances people are willing to lend before they become convinced that someone's not invested in actually making a change.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I realize she's trying to defend her friend, but man. Natalie has been given so many opportunities to dig herself out of the pit she blew into the surface of the earth and she keeps dropping grenades to make the pit deeper instead.

What's the point in going to bat for Contra now when she herself clearly doesn't want to climb back out?
FWIW, that was from before CP doubled down last weekend. It was still a nonsense statement then though since had only apologized for one incident at the time of that writing.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,470
In context she obviously thinks the joke format is both not funny and hurtful shown in the series of posts before her use. The setup shows that she is explicitly using it satirically as a mirror to show how ridiculous Ricky is being. Am I wrong here?

That's the intent, yes. The problem is that Twitter is not the kind of interface to launch a kind of meta commentary on bad transphobic meme humor, especially when your attack is simply the same joke actual transphobes make with one word changed and no actual commentary applied.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
In context she obviously thinks the joke format is both not funny and hurtful shown in the series of posts before her use. The setup shows that she is explicitly using it satirically as a mirror to show how ridiculous Ricky is being. Am I wrong here?
You're missing that it hurt trans people who saw that tweet.

I can't look at a single tweet and go, okay, wait a second, better find out the exact context of this before it upsets me.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
I remember six months ago and people here would make jokes about how Contrapoints and Lindsay Ellis would be the last youtubers standing uncancelled since we loved them so much.

We severely underestimated ourselves.

But seriously Lindsay make better jokes.
But neither of them are cancelled because they actually hold themselves accountable? I think you might be missing the entire point here.
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,453
San Francisco
That's the intent, yes. The problem is that Twitter is not the kind of interface to launch a kind of meta commentary on bad transphobic meme humor, especially when your attack is simply the same joke actual transphobes make with one word changed and no actual commentary applied.
You're missing that it hurt trans people who saw that tweet.

I can't look at a single tweet and go, okay, wait a second, better find out the exact context of this before it upsets me.

That makes sense.

It seems many, myself included, forget that Twitter is naturally out of context due to it's format which has its inherent reactions and thus consequences.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,947
in bad taste, probably wasnt the best choice... but it was deleted and it's probably best to just move on. there's little reasons to make a big deal out of this. she isn't your enemy.
Nah, just someone that likes to lean on the ally sign while not letting anyone criticize their friend, talking down to people who do and occasionally pops a transphobic joke that makes actual transphobes laugh.
 

Shigs

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,611
Los Angeles
User warned: Dismisive commentary
She's not telling the same joke he is, she's mimicking him telling it. If someone says "your mama's a dickhead" and then you reply in a nasally dopey voice that's supposed to sound like them "your mama's a dickhead", that doesn't mean you share the sentiment, it means you're making fun of how dumb they sound.

Exactly. She's poking fun at Rick Gervais for poking fun at trans people. She's not directly poking fun at trans people. People nowadays are getting too sensitive.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
As someone who makes bad jokes, that's just a bad joke to me. She should know better for that alone .
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
i literally dont even know what "how dare you assume ricky gervais" is supposed to mean

Honestly at this point I wish I didn't have to assume Ricky Gervais

Exactly. She's poking fun at Rick Gervais for poking fun at trans people. She's not directly poking fun at trans people. People nowadays are getting too sensitive.

literally physically pokes someone who has been working out in the sun all day without sunscreen jeez why are you so upset at me sheesh people are too sensitive now
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,470
Exactly. She's poking fun at Rick Gervais for poking fun at trans people. She's not directly poking fun at trans people. People nowadays are getting too sensitive.

People are mostly just saying the joke is dumb and in bad taste because it offers no actual commentary, just a bland recreation of a shitty joke actual transphobes use all the time to begin with. Gervais is the butt of the joke but the CONTENT of the joke is still "ha ha trans people identify as silly things ha ha".
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,639
She's mocking their one "joke".

I don't see how it could be taken any other way.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Exactly. She's poking fun at Rick Gervais for poking fun at trans people. She's not directly poking fun at trans people. People nowadays are getting too sensitive.

"People nowadays are getting too sensitive" says the cis man to the trans people that are upset completely uncaring to how much this adds to the irritation or how they actually feel.
 

Lee Morris

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,724
I mean the culpability for what Contrapoints did doesn't rest with Lindsay but I think her defense was tepid. In the face of dismissing criticism coming mainly from nonbinary trans people (there's a thread), this makes the questionable jokes being highlighted in this thread come across as even more mean-spirited and lazy.
Sorry, I didn't mean you, I meant the op.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
She's not telling the same joke he is, she's mimicking him telling it. If someone says "your mama's a dickhead" and then you reply in a nasally dopey voice that's supposed to sound like them "your mama's a dickhead", that doesn't mean you share the sentiment, it means you're making fun of how dumb they sound.
It's more like someone says 'Your mama's a dickhead' and your reaction was to get on the school tannoy and broadcast "Your mama's a dickhead" in retaliation, not even 100% sure that they'd hear it, and not thinking about all the other people that were going to hear it and might think that you were saying *their* mama's were dick heads.
 

skeptem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,745
It seems odd to remove intent and character from the context of that joke. Its disingenuous to act like she isn't mocking Ricky.

The response to should be " I get that your are mocking Ricky and his ilk for the use of that "joke" , but to using their joke against them doesn't have the desired effect"
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
The entirety of "left" YouTube seems to be stepping on every rake they can find in the last few weeks.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Here are some fun jokes you can make about Ricky Gervais:

- Ricky Gervais convinced me that God doesn't exist. Not because of his arguments, but because no being that believes in justice would subject us to Ricky Gervais
- Congratulations to Ricky Gervais, whose antics after The Office ended have made Karl Pilkington, the man whose show was literally called "An Idiot Abroad" look like a cultured man of intellect
- Ricky Gervais once said, when asked if he would have children, "there are too many children, of course". This has never stopped him acting like one.