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Lindsay Ellis: How Aladdin Changed Animation (by Screwing Over Robin Williams)
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
Glad a lot of people know about Katzenberg.
Btw, there are still plenty of Katzenbergs left at Disney. I haven't done any work there in a long time, but a couple of my colleagues said working there is a destroyer of souls. I am strictly talking about a couple of departments. I did hear that DSS (bamtech) and a couple of other departments are a joy to work with/for.
Btw, there are still plenty of Katzenbergs left at Disney. I haven't done any work there in a long time, but a couple of my colleagues said working there is a destroyer of souls. I am strictly talking about a couple of departments. I did hear that DSS (bamtech) and a couple of other departments are a joy to work with/for.
So, I mean, she's rebuilt her YouTube career in being nuanced and measured, and researched and documented options on media. She has a masters in fine arts and studied film in college and post. She's not a fly-by-night click-bait YouTuber who drives for clicks; she's an actual professional.
Now, as a result of that, she might not also think that GoT's final season or episodes is a 7/10 or that we all need to meet in the middle and discuss the pros and cons of it all, and not validating opinions on the series and latter seasons/ending, but... I mean you can watch it or not.
Well, that and the movie papering over something as historically major as the Russian Revolution and the subsequent Communist regime under Stalin (and this isn't like a fairy tale or a period piece covering a not-as-well-known time of history hundreds of years ago, this happened literally the century the movie came out and was, as I'll reiterate, a big deal ) with a super thin "eh, things kinda suck right now but hey, it's a living" backdrop in service of a super trite and relentlessly dull love story.
I can't tell if the movie's existence is a bigger insult to Disney movies or to the millions of people who suffered during that time period.
Don't forget pinning the Russian Revolution and subsequent rise of Bolshevism on Rasputin.
Another great from one of the best on YouTube. I had no idea about this conflict but I was ignorant of looking back into the Disney movies I watched years back. Glad somebody was willing to come along and apologize. Screw that Katzenbug.
I'm still bummed that Disney won't be making 2D animated feature films any time soon, if ever again.
I'm still bummed that Disney won't be making 2D animated feature films any time soon, if ever again.
Yeah, I hate how Toys never seems to get any attention. LL Cool J is hilarious in it.
In fairness, there were a fair number of contemporaries that thought something very close to that!
She probably wants to do that one in a separate video.
I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at that line.
I usually like Lindsey, but I'm kinda confused by this one. Like, if Disney violated his contract, why didn't Williams sue them? She says they claim he signed off on every ad. Did he, or are they just lying?
And most of her "it didn't happen before and now its all fixed because the actors "inspired" the characters" seems like a... stretch. In a world where Mandy Moore is starring as Rapunzle, Kristen Bell in Frozen, and the Rock in Moana, I'd say that selling movies based on actors is still good business.
The ironic part to me is, Williams is basically the only actor I can think of that would inspire me to go see an animated feature.
And most of her "it didn't happen before and now its all fixed because the actors "inspired" the characters" seems like a... stretch. In a world where Mandy Moore is starring as Rapunzle, Kristen Bell in Frozen, and the Rock in Moana, I'd say that selling movies based on actors is still good business.
The ironic part to me is, Williams is basically the only actor I can think of that would inspire me to go see an animated feature.
1. Disney stretched thin their agreement of the 25% thing. Then blatantly ignored Robin towards the final commercial release with commercials, merchandise, and toys not part of the agreement, using the Genie's voice and likeness to sell merchandise not part of Robin's agreement, all while Robin saw no compensation when he already asked for a very reduced paycheck. Disney did have him approve of all the agreements he dictated, they just went around Robin's clear verbal desires he told them by the written contract out of bad faith.
It's cleverly written wordplay that is used to trick most people in contracts. So Robin, upset, upheld the written contract because he is a good person. Just vowed not to work with Disney ever again (which lasted a long time until Prince of Thieves).
2. I don't know about you, but I didn't go out of my way to see any of those movies because those actors are in it. Hell, I didn't even know who Kristen Bell was until Frozen, and she has since moved onto other projects I'm now obsessed with. Disney films are not just shoe-horning actors to play characters in their animated movies, they are carefully selecting actors who would bring out the best of their characters because of bigger budgets, if it happens to be a more top class actor/singer who accepts the role, so be it. They aren't purposely using famous actors as the sole marketing point for a movie with characters that play no role in the story. Hence the Gargoyles in Hunchback, or other studio's attempts at getting audiences to see their star voiced movie.
However, live-action Disney is the complete opposite in this regards and has clear parallels of this, especially in their commercials and marketing. Just look at Aladdin and they are trouting Will Smith or the Lion King's actors.
Trust us, she and her team are not going to go soft on the show, either intellectually or professionally. She's not going to just spout her personal opinions and call it a day.
But being intellectually honest and professional doesn't mean she'll say it's a "mixed bag" just for the sake of appearing unbiased. She actually has a degree and masters in cinema and fine arts, so... if she does come to the conclusion that GoT Season 8 was the worst season ever, she's probably right. Not that she's said that. In fact, before the last couple of episodes, she's never actually talked about GoT on Twitter or her videos. I had no idea she was such a passionate fan.
The season was so bad, she said she just couldn't keep quiet and has particularly strong opinions about how the show atrociously tackled the female characters from the books, especially this season.
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Anyone who questions whether Lindsay can do a well reasoned and nuance video of GoT should watch her Hobbit trilogy videos. They're top level critiques with jason schreier levels of deep dives into the behind the scenes mess.
I don't know. It's weird it took her until season 8 to realize the show was going down the tubes.
And it happened in Russia. Russia! Only American history has to be considered with respect!!!
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Just because she didn't comment on it till now doesn't mean she agreed with all the past decisions.
Great video as always.
LatAm Disney did that before Anastasia. Can't recall for the earlier ones, but Hercules was voiced by Ricky Martin and they promoted the *shit* out of that back then.
This gonna be good.
I really hope Dan Olson decides to do something GoT related on Folding Ideas too. His 50 Shades of Grey series was outstanding.
Coincidentally both movies came out same year, but within a time frame that couldn't possibly mean one copied the other.
I noticed that Dan tends to choose films that are less popular for video essayists or particularly flawed films.
I'm not sure he will do one unless he has a specific angle because there is going to be thousands of GOT post-mortems, he knows this, he knows Lindsay is doing one cuz they're friends and he probably shares the same thoughts.
Even his Detective Pikachu and Endgame videos were kinda jokey meta-commentaries on other reviewers and the video essayist culture.
My animation instructor worked for Disney during the Katzenberg era and he outright admitted EVERYONE in the animation department hated him. They had to fight like hell to keep scenes like the "Part of Your World" segment from The Little Mermaid because Katzenberg wanted it scrapped after a kid dropped his popcorn ("It means they're not engaged"). The Rescuers Down Under's boy was supposed to be an aborigine child, but Katzenberg insisted they scrap it and use a token blonde white kid because that was "more relatable" (they did an animation scene of the boy being devoured by the crocodiles to show their disappointment for one screening). He absolutely butchered the theatrical cut of The Black Cauldron by taken the scissors to it at the 11th hour, removing nearly 25 minutes of footage which was then discarded and is presumed to be lost forever. He went on and on about how there was an "A" team and "B" team at Disney, with the "real" professionals working on their next big Oscar-worthy project, Pocahontas, and all the "lesser" talent were doing some "silly animal movie" (it became The Lion King).
On and on and on, story after story. It was surreal.
Thankfully, they got some catharsis out of their former boss when The Incredibles came along.
What did she say regarding Disney being to blame? I'm at work and can't watch it yet, so really curious. I adore "Toys" and really want it on Blu-Ray.
Hey now, "Toys" isn't THAT bad of a movie. I absolutely love it.
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Good point. I'm actually glad he goes after obscure material more often than not.
I think it's a good sign that she's waited to do a post-mortem, AFTER the shows over. Not after every season or every episode like everyone else in the internet.
I'm much more interested in a deep dive of the show as a whole,which I'm guessing is what she'll do based in her past content.
Just that the reason Robin didn't want his part to be marketed the way it was was to keep his upcoming passion project, Toys, from being swallowed up by Aladdin. Which was, looking at the BO totals.
I heard one as well about him requesting Bill Farmer use a different voice for Goofy in A Goofy Movie, because he felt people wouldn't be able to take it seriously.My animation instructor worked for Disney during the Katzenberg era and he outright admitted EVERYONE in the animation department hated him. They had to fight like hell to keep scenes like the "Part of Your World" segment from The Little Mermaid because Katzenberg wanted it scrapped after a kid dropped his popcorn ("It means they're not engaged"). The Rescuers Down Under's boy was supposed to be an aborigine child, but Katzenberg insisted they scrap it and use a token blonde white kid because that was "more relatable" (they did an animation scene of the boy being devoured by the crocodiles to show their disappointment for one screening). He absolutely butchered the theatrical cut of The Black Cauldron by taken the scissors to it at the 11th hour, removing nearly 25 minutes of footage which was then discarded and is presumed to be lost forever. He went on and on about how there was an "A" team and "B" team at Disney, with the "real" professionals working on their next big Oscar-worthy project, Pocahontas, and all the "lesser" talent were doing some "silly animal movie" (it became The Lion King).
On and on and on, story after story. It was surreal.
Thankfully, they got some catharsis out of their former boss when The Incredibles came along.
That's right. He thought people wouldn't be able to take A Goofy Movie seriously if Goofy sounded goofy.
I'll give him credit for being a good businessman but man, his artistic instincts seem to just suck, which is something that often gets in the way of his business sense anyway. Even Eisner knew genius when he saw it - the directors for Hunchback talk on the DVD commentary about how they were convinced they'd have to fight tooth and nail to keep the Hellfire sequence, but Eisner loved it and approved it without any hesitation. The only thing they had to change was adding clothes to the fire Esmeralda.
Ohhhhh ok. Thank you so much for explaining that. Regardless of how many people dog on that movie, Toys is fantastic and I honestly believe it was ahead of its time.
Apologies, for some reason I had Anastasia as a 1998/1999 film in my mind, as in Hercules clearly being released long before for it to be the precursor in that.
Nobody saw Rapunzel for Mandy Moore or Frozen for Kristen Bell, both of whom were pretty arguably in slower phases of their careers at the time. Certainly not on the level of The Rock in Moana in terms of promotion / buzz (which is the exception she uses in the video). If Rapunzel had come out when Mandy Moore was at the height of her singing fame, sure, it would be stunt casting, but her career at that point was mostly guest stints on TV shows and other voice work.
Thinking about it, never mind burying Toys in the box office, Williams' request to not be used as a merch tool is pretty in line with the mesage of Toys.
Wow, Mouse Detective and Olive & Co... man forgot about those movies. Jesus and fern gully
ITS ALL FLOODING BACK TO ME
ITS ALL FLOODING BACK TO ME
She also does tremendous videos for PBS digital in a recurring series called 'It's Lit' Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/user/pbsdigitalstudios
Saw this in my subs, gonna fire it up when I get off work.
Antz was a way better movie, too.
Compare that to something like How to Train Your Dragon, which came out in the same year as Tangled.
Jay Baruchel as Hiccup
America Ferrera (an actual voice actor) as Astrid
Gerard Butler (Leonidas from 300) as Stoick
Craig Ferguson (the late night talk show host) as Gobber
Jonah Hill (from Superbad) as Snotlout
Christopher Mintz-Plasse (from Superbad) as Fishlegs
TJ Miller as Tuffnut
Kristen Wiig (popular SNL comedian) as Ruffnut
I love How to Train Your Dragon, but it's clear that Dreamworks leaned a lot harder on celebrity power and stunt casting than Disney did. And it's not like Disney couldn't afford it.
The Rock in Moana was clearly stunt casting, and yet, they seemingly gave equal billing to a literal no-name. Dwayne Johnson's name comes first in the advertising, but Auli'i Cravalho's name comes first in the movie's credits, and I remember she got a lot of face time in the marketing.
The opening premise is wrong, the advertising of celebrity voices up front didn't start with Aladdin. To address one of the cherry-picked "examples", the Gabors were very popular celebrities on television at the time when the Rescuers was released (and not because of "green acres").
Yes, for an animated film where "we got robin-fucking-williams!", a bunch of outsized hoopla was made, and some crappy inside-baseball-y things happened that and some didn't come out ahead.
But animation wasn't changed over this, that's rather dramatic. Still, I get that she didn't want the video to be titled "Katzenberg: Petty Asshole".
Yes, for an animated film where "we got robin-fucking-williams!", a bunch of outsized hoopla was made, and some crappy inside-baseball-y things happened that and some didn't come out ahead.
But animation wasn't changed over this, that's rather dramatic. Still, I get that she didn't want the video to be titled "Katzenberg: Petty Asshole".
I thought the narrative was more interesting but that movie definitely looks like it was made to beat A Bug's Life to market, let me put it that way.
Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt on Jeffrey Katzenberg being a prick.
His history of depression certainly played a role and it sucks he didn't get the help he needed after his diagnosis to maybe help him through coming to some better terms with it in the short term but he knew what would happen to him and I can completely understand why he did it from my personal experience. He probably had more time before it got bad but depending on how quickly his lewy body dementia progressed, he might have passed away already from it given the average life expectancy after symptoms start showing is five to eight years but those few remaining years are in no way a good quality of life. I wouldn't wish anyone to live through the hell that is dementia and it would be especially hell someone like Robin to feel his mind slip away until he's basically gone mentally as it advanced. Never mind the heart break his family would've had to experience watching him fall apart. The process of dementia is a fate much worse than death.
His history of depression certainly played a role and it sucks he didn't get the help he needed after his diagnosis to maybe help him through coming to some better terms with it in the short term but he knew what would happen to him and I can completely understand why he did it from my personal experience. He probably had more time before it got bad but depending on how quickly his lewy body dementia progressed, he might have passed away already from it given the average life expectancy after symptoms start showing is five to eight years but those few remaining years are in no way a good quality of life. I wouldn't wish anyone to live through the hell that is dementia and it would be especially hell someone like Robin to feel his mind slip away until he's basically gone mentally as it advanced. Never mind the heart break his family would've had to experience watching him fall apart. The process of dementia is a fate much worse than death.
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