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IamPeacock

Member
Feb 9, 2018
790
Belgium
I've been playing God of War again and although the game is gorgeous, there are many scenes that the lighting is shifting whenever I turn the camera or move Kratos around.

For example:

Is this because of the baked lighting?
When a game would use global illumination ray-tracing, will this effect go away?

I find it sometimes breaking the immersion.
 

Dest

Has seen more 10s than EA ever will
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Jun 4, 2018
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Work
Ray-tracing could do away with it, but it seems to just be an artistic lighting choice to represent what happens in real life where your eyes adjust from something bright to something darker.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
That seems more like one of those "fake camera" effects that games like to do, similar to lens flare or chromatic aberration.

They are simulating the delay in a camera doing automatic exposure adjustment.
 

BoredLemon

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,002
Ray-tracing could do away with it, but it seems to just be an artistic lighting choice to represent what happens in real life where your eyes adjust from something bright to something darker.
But video shows opposite effect.
Picture got dimmer when they looked away from the light source.
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,988
eyes do the same thing btw
Indeed. It's a relatively commonly used technique in games. I recall RE5 talking about it when going from exterior to interior.

That said, I'm not even sure that's what's going on here. The character was moved to a location where it appears the light from the ceiling would be occluded by the pillar. Seems logical the picture would become darker? Is it probably more severe than it should be? Sure. Would ray tracing make that transition smoother? Probably.
 

TeenageFBI

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,230
It's kinda simulating how your eyes adjust when moving from a bright environment to dark, but I agree that the effect is distracting. Maybe slowing the transition or making it less pronounced would help?

I first saw an effect like this in a Half-Life 2 tech demo level. It might even be handled better there, I should go back to try it out. Valve called it HDR at the time, haha.

store.steampowered.com

Half-Life 2: Lost Coast on Steam

Originally planned as a section of the Highway 17 chapter of Half-Life 2, Lost Coast is a playable technology showcase that introduces High Dynamic Range lighting to the Source engine.
 

Zodzilla

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,233
But video shows opposite effect.
Picture got dimmer when they looked away from the light source.
When you look at something bright, your irises close to protect your eyes, when you look away from something bright after a while, your irises are still closed.

Try going from a very bright room into a pitch black room in the middle of the night and walking around without stubbing your toe. It's the same thing.

Also, to respond to OP's complaint, yes, it seems like a fast transition, but I assume that they kept that in for playability. I'm sure they playtested and found this to be an adequate solution. Games without this sort of dynamic camera work feel pretty bland (Half Life 2 introduced dynamic range with Lost Coast and you could viscerally feel the difference) so I'm glad they do this sort of thing.
 

Arex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,496
Indonesia
Maybe you're moving to a shaded area? But it's most likely just the eye adjusting thing, which can be wonky sometimes indeed
 

Deleted member 1003

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Oct 25, 2017
10,638
Eyes having to readjust after looking at bright light, this is normal.

The camera is simulating what your eyes actually do.
 

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,352
I thought OP was talking about very noticeable changes in lighting/color-grading like for example in this clip at 0:40



This is what really throws me off in games with highly curated lighting that caries by area and the visibly shifts at a certain point in the level.

They eye-adjustment effect is fine with me, I lmusually like it if it's done well.
 

Deleted member 1003

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Oct 25, 2017
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Not the way it is portrayed in the video. Pupil dilation is a slow and gradual process. The rapid transition in the video is what a camera would do.
Fair enough, not sure how Ray tracing would fix what OP is talking about however. The camera is adjusting for the lighting change what is unrealistic about it?
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
Both RDR2 and TLOU2 have versions of this, it's just the exposure window shifting to suit a suddenly darker/brighter environment. I think what makes the OP's clip a little goofy is that the transition where the shift takes place isn't as dramatic as say - Arthur Morgan on a bright sunny day walking into a dark and gloomy bar. Here, Kratos is simply walking from a dark part of a moody cave to a... Slightly not as dark part of the same cave.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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That maybe so, but because of the hardware limitations, it doesn't come off very natural or realistic to me.
What are you talking about? The camera is adjusting for you after you stared at the bright lights. Sounds like you want everything to be lit in a way that doesn't cause any adjustment which would probably look much worse.

EDIT: sounds like RT GI would make the transition more smooth but the transition would still be there.
 
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BoredLemon

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,002
When you look at something bright, your irises close to protect your eyes, when you look away from something bright after a while, your irises are still closed.

Try going from a very bright room into a pitch black room in the middle of the night and walking around without stubbing your toe. It's the same thing.
Exactly, when i go from bright room to dark room, everything will be black until my eyes will adjust.
In the OP's example, they look away from light and "dark room" is super bright and gets darker with time, which is, again, the opposite of what you describing. With eye adaptation, that cave should be dark at first and then get brighter with time.
 

Red

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,642
Exposure adjustment has to be done in order to make scenes visible between lighting changes. As others have said, our eyes do the very same thing. Otherwise we would not be able to transition between light and dark environments without becoming blinded by one or the other.

technical advancements will make such things feel more natural, but the technique won't go away. It can't, otherwise you'd have environments that are either too bright or too dark to see.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
No, that's just the auto exposure/ eye adaptation for the HDR rendering. It's super aggressive in GOW.
 

behOemoth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,611
It was called HDR rendering back in the day simulating how eyes get accustomed to different light environments. Far Cry implemented that with an update and it was pretty GPU heavy if I remember correctly.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
Fair enough, not sure how Ray tracing would fix what OP is talking about however. The camera is adjusting for the lighting change what is unrealistic about it?

Simulating the physical limitations of a camera in a game like this is unrealistic in the sense that:

1. There is no physical camera
2. The in-game camera does not have the limitations that a physical camera would have

The same goes for things like chromatic aberration, lens flare, focus delays, overshoot, motion blur, bokeh, etc.

What the game designers are doing is simulating the look of a movie. For some people this seems natural, since they are used to seeing the technical limitations of video cameras in movies, so they can take them in stride. For other people it makes no sense to fake the look of a movie when there is no in-universe explanation for it, unless you imagine a Mario 64-style situation, where there actually is a camera man flying over the shoulder of your character the whole time.
 

elenarie

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Jun 10, 2018
9,799
I don't know how that specific game implements things, but from what I can tell, the camera picks up exposure from two different light probes during that movement. The differences between the two is significant, which is why you are seeing such aggressive exposure changes when moving just a few meters. RT global illumination will help make this transition smoother and more natural, as exposure adjustments would not be bound by the boundaries of those two light probes the camera goes through.

Assuming this is camera location / light probe based exposure adjustment, and not a simple screen space exposure adjustment in regards to where the camera is looking.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
Yeah, this is the opposite way round for auto-exposure. I'd say it's probably an authored 'over-exposed' effect to make that scene, with light pouring in from the roof, 'pop'.
 

Koklusz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,547
No, that's just the auto exposure/ eye adaptation for the HDR rendering. It's super aggressive in GOW.
I take it's still enabled in HDR? God, I hate when games are doing that, had to cover my eyes when going from interior to exterior in MW 2019 on my ks8000, dropping brightness in game to minimum and capping peak at ~ 600 nits mostly fixed this, but it also crushed black details somewhat.
 

Deleted member 1003

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't know how that specific game implements things, but from what I can tell, the camera picks up exposure from two different light probes during that movement. The differences between the two is significant, which is why you are seeing such aggressive exposure changes when moving just a few meters. RT global illumination will help make this transition smoother and more natural, as exposure adjustments would not be bound by the boundaries of those two light probes the camera goes through.

Assuming this is camera location / light probe based exposure adjustment, and not a simple screen space exposure adjustment in regards to where the camera is looking.
Thanks for the insight.
 

Zodzilla

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,233
Exactly, when i go from bright room to dark room, everything will be black until my eyes will adjust.
In the OP's example, they look away from light and "dark room" is super bright and gets darker with time, which is, again, the opposite of what you describing. With eye adaptation, that cave should be dark at first and then get brighter with time.
Fair enough and good point, you're saying there's no dip to near black then pitch up to visibility. Makes sense.

That being said, I assume they don't due that for playability reasons. Not being able to see things for a little bit would be more realistic, but probably more irritating.
 

LuigiV

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
2,685
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Ray-tracing could do away with it, but it seems to just be an artistic lighting choice to represent what happens in real life where your eyes adjust from something bright to something darker.
It's not HDR exposure adjustment because it's back to front. The cave got darker after he looked away from the light. Should be the other way around. Also not to mention the adjustment didn't happen until kratos moved rather than when the camera angle changed.

What I think is going on is whatever fake GI/ambient lighting solution they're using is being adjusted based on where exactly in the level Kratos is standing. In which case the OP is correct that ray tracing GI would help eliminate this issue.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
That's not really about lighting, it's about color grading. The engine is applying some kind of look-up-table, or other grading, to the image, and this look up table changes depending on your location.
 

Waffle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,821
Yeah I think something similar happens in other games like Horizon Zero Dawn which was pretty distracting there for me as well and to a lesser extent.. Spiderman. I played all of them with HDR on.

For the people that are saying it's eye adaptation.. I don't think it is. That would imply that it'll get darker and gradually brighten up, but it doesn't.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
This is totally fine?
RTX is nice and all but I'd rather have that immense power it demands used elsewhere. But let's see how the tech evolves.
 

Link_enfant

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 20, 2018
1,504
France
Ray tracing is the solution to a lot of current lightning-related issues in the long term.
We're just starting to see it used in video games and it still requires a lot of power, but it'll gradually become a widespread and necessary thing rather than a constraint for developers.
 

Akela

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,849
As people have said, this is the game transitioning between two color grading scenarios - doesn't really have much to with lighting since it's a post-process effect. Basically the exposure, color temperature, hue, highlight/mid/shadow values etc - all the manual tweaks made makes the level have a particular mood are swapped out on a per area basis, which is what causes that sudden transition.

Really the only way to make the effect more seamless is to lengthen the transition or have more in-between color grading scenes to lessen the effect once the transition does happen. Even with stuff like ray tracing games are still going to have color grading for the same reason films and TV shows have color grading - the problem is that games don't have nice clean camera cuts to switch from one color graded scene to another.
 
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RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,928
Austin, TX
When you look at something bright, your irises close to protect your eyes, when you look away from something bright after a while, your irises are still closed.

Try going from a very bright room into a pitch black room in the middle of the night and walking around without stubbing your toe. It's the same thing.

Also, to respond to OP's complaint, yes, it seems like a fast transition, but I assume that they kept that in for playability. I'm sure they playtested and found this to be an adequate solution. Games without this sort of dynamic camera work feel pretty bland (Half Life 2 introduced dynamic range with Lost Coast and you could viscerally feel the difference) so I'm glad they do this sort of thing.
Eyes having to readjust after looking at bright light, this is normal.

The camera is simulating what your eyes actually do.
I get what you are saying, but if your pupils were still constricted from the bright light, then looking into a dark room should go from black to brighter as your pupils dilated. The opposite happens in this video, as the scenery goes from bright to dark about one second after the player looks away from the bright light, as if the pupil constricted after looking away from the bright light. Watch it again slowly. It is the opposite of what would be natural, which is why it's so off-putting
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
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Oct 25, 2017
27,511
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Good HDR implementation can do away with it. You don't need to fake eyes having to adjust from dark to light and vice versa, if your display goes from outputting not much light to ass loads. Cause then your actual eyes will have to adjust.
 

Nekyrrev

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,122
As people have said, this is the game transitioning between two color grading scenarios - doesn't really have much to with lighting since it's a post-process effect. Basically the exposure, color temperature, hue, highlight/shadow values etc - all the manual tweaks made which makes the level have a particular mood are swapped out on a per area basis, which is what causes that sudden transition.
This is 100% this, nothing to do with hdr or fake eye adaptation. And it's indeed often very visible in this game.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,215
Simulating the physical limitations of a camera in a game like this is unrealistic in the sense that:

1. There is no physical camera
2. The in-game camera does not have the limitations that a physical camera would have

The same goes for things like chromatic aberration, lens flare, focus delays, overshoot, motion blur, bokeh, etc.

What the game designers are doing is simulating the look of a movie. For some people this seems natural, since they are used to seeing the technical limitations of video cameras in movies, so they can take them in stride. For other people it makes no sense to fake the look of a movie when there is no in-universe explanation for it, unless you imagine a Mario 64-style situation, where there actually is a camera man flying over the shoulder of your character the whole time.

with all due respect to your opinion, there is technically no cameras or camera people in a movie either (meaning within the framework of the movie world you are viewing, most of the time, there is no "the office" style camera-person)
 

EvilBoris

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Oct 29, 2017
16,680
I take it's still enabled in HDR? God, I hate when games are doing that, had to cover my eyes when going from interior to exterior in MW 2019 on my ks8000, dropping brightness in game to minimum and capping peak at ~ 600 nits mostly fixed this, but it also crushed black details somewhat.

yeah it'still there for an HDR output. You'll always need some, current displays don't offer enough dynamic range to make switching it off viable
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,400
with all due respect to your opinion, there is technically no cameras or camera people in a movie either (meaning within the framework of the movie world you are viewing, most of the time, there is no "the office" style camera-person)

Yeah, I get that. However a lot of the technical limitations that stem from using real cameras are unavoidable with current technology. If the creator didn't have much choice, it is easier to give them a pass on it.

I will say I find it irritating when action movies do things like shaky cam when there is no in-universe camera man. That is not a technical limitation, it is a choice.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,941
Japan
I don't know how that specific game implements things, but from what I can tell, the camera picks up exposure from two different light probes during that movement. The differences between the two is significant, which is why you are seeing such aggressive exposure changes when moving just a few meters. RT global illumination will help make this transition smoother and more natural, as exposure adjustments would not be bound by the boundaries of those two light probes the camera goes through.

Assuming this is camera location / light probe based exposure adjustment, and not a simple screen space exposure adjustment in regards to where the camera is looking.
You guys do Automatic Exposure based on light probes and not based on what's showing on the actual screen? I have never seen that, I wonder how that works.


Anyway, as for the OP, and although it's already been explained... exposure control is something you can't get rid of, unless you're OK with the games not having anywhere near correct lighting in them (which can still be visually appealing, mind you, just missing a lot of what would make it realistic).
In many engines, it's handled automatically via what's called Auto Exposure. Many engines use systems that mimic camera controls for Auto Exposure, which makes the in-game camera behave like a real camera.
The problem between how it looks in a game and in a movie, is that in a game YOU are controlling the camera and so the game doesn't know when things will get bright or dark, so it has to make it automatic. In a movie, camera staff don't really use Auto Exposure and instead have someone in charge of fine tuning the exposure throughout filming, so you will get more appealing exposure changes that don't grab your attention (unless overexposed or underexposed visuals are the focus of that scene).

Ray Tracing will do nothing to fix it, and things like HDR have higher ranges so the exposure doesn't have to shift around as much, but it will still do it. The only time HDR will be able to get rid of Auto Exposure is when the panel is able to display as dark and as bright scenes as needed in a game, and by then your eyes will be the ones doing the work (and the panels will be as bright as the sun seen from earth, so good luck playing some games in the middle of the night — you will go blind :P). But really, Auto Exposure can be tuned a lot, and the algorithms are being improved constantly so things will get better.

The example in your video is a bit strange because it also goes darker than it should, it seems, so it could also be the game having volumes with different color grading settings on it and it just blending from one to the other. I would have to go to that same scene and look at it, because I don't remember how it reacted. Volumes with different colorgrading are also very common, but you can run into problems where you're looking at the same thing and suddenly the whole screen goes brighter or darker for "no reason" (other than your camera having moved from one volume to the next).
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,215
Yeah, I get that. However a lot of the technical limitations that stem from using real cameras are unavoidable with current technology. If the creator didn't have much choice, it is easier to give them a pass on it.

I will say I find it irritating when action movies do things like shaky cam when there is no in-universe camera man. That is not a technical limitation, it is a choice.

Well you're certainly not going to get a disagreement out of me about shaky cam. Haha. Though I do like the use of some effects like chromatic aberration, lens flare, etc. Depending upon their use. Both in movies and in games. Games emulating cameras to evoke cinema makes perfect sense from an artistic standpoint. God of war obviously was going for this. Even going as far as to emulate birdman and the like with the no-cuts cutscenes