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Fhtagn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,615
Watching Pulp Fiction again recently made me remember that line Quentin had, "dead ____ storage", and I tried to sort out how I felt about it. Like, okay, this is a different time and place, and a guy like that would probably throw out those words so there's an artistic merit to showing it so casually, and there can be an honesty to it that you could appreciate. But the other half of it felt like Quentin wasn't exactly thinking about that as much as he was kinda copying Scorsese characters that did it, and for some kind of shock value rather than "I'm going to depict racism in an ugly way".

not going to varnish it, when I was 17 and saw that movie in the theater, that bit made me laugh really hard, from discomfort & shock to hear someone say that, and I didn't really think much of it until years later, and now, while I like Tarantino over all, I find his use of the N-word in Pulp Fiction real "look at what I can get away with for no real purpose other than to show I can get away with it" bullshit.
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,321
Orlando, FL
I just took your argument to its logical conclusion since you found Naythan's argument that "art should *generally* be judged based on creator's intent over selective audience interpretation." dangerous. I think you as a director have some responsibility, but that doesn't mean no responsibility or full responsibility for all interpretations.

If you find my example with "Schindler's List" example too extreme (we fortunately rarely care much about how nazis interpret films) then we can take another Spielberg movie, "Munich", as an example of a movie being controversial, where both sides represented in the film found it unfair. A controversial subject doesn't mean you'll get a masterpiece, but at least it has the potential to be interesting.

In the specific case of "Licorice Pizza", your "damn near everyone" in this case are a couple of people and their gauging of a cinema audience and 1 person who has not seen the film. They could be totally correct in their interpretation (as correct as you can be when it comes to interpretation), and these scenes could be obviously racist, unnecessary and completely ruining the experience. I just don't find the description of these scenes themselves particular convincing, and when people in this thread drag out their old misinterpretations of "Lost in Translation" then I'm even more reluctant to join the chorus. I'll be waiting for more impressions.

I'm looking back at the OP's post, then looking back at what you've posted and feel as though you've lost the thread for sake of some different discussion you want to have. Your opinion of how the scene should be interpreted or what the director intended, or anyone else's for that matter, are irrelevant when it comes to the topic at hand. You keep trying to equate films with heavy topics to this, a completely different kind of film with (for the umpteenth time) two scenes that aren't at all core to the story.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,158
I haven't seen the movie, I absolutely agree that thios sounds like a bad choice.

Also, any article using "_____ is being criticized by some on social media" as its thesis is garbage, even if they do occasionally highlight a valid criticism.
 

Supercrap

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,352
Oakland Bay Area
If it's made to make the husband look like a shitty person then I'm good with that. If it's like something that's supposed to be accepted by a normal person then yeah that's not cool
 

Flavius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,321
Orlando, FL
If it's made to make the husband look like a shitty person then I'm good with that. If it's like something that's supposed to be accepted by a normal person then yeah that's not cool

All indications are it's clearly intended to be comical. But you know, you don't have to laugh at it so others here would tell you that it's totally cool.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,736
At the end of the day, it's a weak gag. The worst part of an otherwise fantastic flick. There's a line right after where the character is asked to translate and he says "I don't know, I don't speak Japanese" and it hits way better.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,903
Reading the article, it seems it is in there to represent the racism of the time and that it still happens to the director's relatives.

Tricky thing is getting something like this to land in the way "I'd vote for Obama a third time" did in Get Out, where the butt of the joke is clearly the white person. The reaction should be "oof" not "ha ha" and clearly that's not happening with some audiences.
This is it right here. I haven't seen the movie but it seems clear these scenes are purely for laughs.
 
Mar 7, 2020
2,981
USA
I thought after the banpocalypse that is the Ariana topic and Alice Sebold topic that people would actually listen to minority era's voice instead of just dismissing, whitesplaining or tone policing minority era.

But era continues to disappoint when it comes to minorities and POC.
 
Oct 27, 2017
501
I haven't seen the movie yet, but it sounds like PTA fucked up the direction of this scene if it was supposed to be criticism/commentary of the time period rather than let's laugh at this funny accent hahaha.
 
May 15, 2018
1,898
Denmark
I'm looking back at the OP's post, then looking back at what you've posted and feel as though you've lost the thread for sake of some different discussion you want to have. Your opinion of how the scene should be interpreted or what the director intended, or anyone else's for that matter, are irrelevant when it comes to the topic at hand. You keep trying to equate films with heavy topics to this, a completely different kind of film with (for the umpteenth time) two scenes that aren't at all core to the story.
Fair enough. I thought your argument and the general discussion of that topic was more interesting than the specific film that won't be available for me to see for ages so I pursued that instead.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,953
Ah, the age old defence of i know a person that is being mocked, so its actually ok and other people are doing it too

A classic!
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,217
Greater Vancouver
The audience reaction in that David Chen tweet is entirely telling of just what value that line brought to the movie, and who that "joke" is for. If it was meant to be critical of anything, then it utterly failed.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,198
UK
Ooph at it being for laughs and not criticised in the text, and what a disappointing response from PTA.
 

Chaofahn

Member
Nov 16, 2017
463
Melbourne, Australia
It's not the content of the gag that annoys me the most, but rather the movie's enforcement of the "perpetual foreigner syndrome" - the automatic assumption that Asians, whether they are part of the diaspora or not, are always different and don't know any English.

It's so pervasive that even when I'm clearly speaking to someone in the local accent, there is the occasional staff member that "dumbs down" their English and uses an Asian accent + hand gestures to try to talk to me.

The movie scene as described is so normalised in western society that even many non-Asian ERA members have zero idea why some of us would get offended. That right there is the biggest problem.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,162
Gentrified Brooklyn
The audience reaction in that David Chen tweet is entirely telling of just what value that line brought to the movie, and who that "joke" is for. If it was meant to be critical of anything, then it utterly failed.

It goes back to the Dave Chappelle (RIP) argument that what drove him to kill the show was the 'wrong kind if laugh' from an exec sitting in during filming.

If your joke to point out that its racism, ends up coming off a racist, its racist. We've circled back to old South Park 'hipster racism' where its funny because we've moved on as a society, but if anything these last five years should have been a bit 'Nope!' wakeup call to white america, if they cares.
 

napk1ns

Member
Nov 29, 2017
1,239
User Banned (3 Months): Dismissing Concerns of Racism; Prior Severe Ban
As usual, a racist action depicted is not a racist action endorsed. How to avoid that pitfall as a director among all audiences is clearly difficult, but I think local audience reactions and latent trauma plays a role in how certain scenes are perceived as well.
Bingo. This reactionary discourse around media is absurd
 

F2BBm3ga

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,083
Reading the article, it seems it is in there to represent the racism of the time and that it still happens to the director's relatives.

Tricky thing is getting something like this to land in the way "I'd vote for Obama a third time" did in Get Out, where the butt of the joke is clearly the white person. The reaction should be "oof" not "ha ha" and clearly that's not happening with some audiences.

PT's response is fine, if he executed it in a way that the majority of people recognize what is he doing....but if most audiences instead dont get it or it goes over their head and only reinforces racism, then you failed on that part and need to own it. Trying to do this sorta thing only works if you execute it correctly.

seems he failed and should fucking own it.
 
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demonicmurry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
110
Having seen it, i read it as the ridiculousness of the character played by John Michael Higgins. I don't think any of his "wives" are actually married to him given that short period of time that goes by and they're just used as part of his image to open a Japanese restaurant. They both clearly have distain for him regardless and as someone that lives in the Valley, it plays off the "fakeness" of these LA businessmen. I'm also Asian-American if that matters to anyone.

With that said, I can totally understand people being triggered by this because it comes out of nowhere. And the comedy as it's played here is bizarre and comes out of no where it's meant to sort of shock you when it appears. The "success" of the joke will vary to person to person.
 

Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,212
Everett, Washington
Just learning about this. Sucks that it sounds like it sours an otherwise fantastic film.

Though I guess people are taking issue with the lead character flashing a 15-year-old as well and declaring her a pedophile?
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,528
Having seen it, i read it as the ridiculousness of the character played by John Michael Higgins. I don't think any of his "wives" are actually married to him given that short period of time that goes by and they're just used as part of his image to open a Japanese restaurant. They both clearly have distain for him regardless and as someone that lives in the Valley, it plays off the "fakeness" of these LA businessmen. I'm also Asian-American if that matters to anyone.

With that said, I can totally understand people being triggered by this because it comes out of nowhere. And the comedy as it's played here is bizarre and comes out of no where it's meant to sort of shock you when it appears. The "success" of the joke will vary to person to person.
Every other prominent adult in the film is portrayed as something of a buffoon with huge personality flaws and the film spends small moments of time with the younger cast rebelling against them or finding themselves abandoned amid the egomania.

That doesn't really happen with Higgins's character. He shows up, is extremely racist, then vanishes in the next cut. Twice. Nothing he does or says really informs what the leads do beyond the 'don't trust the adults in the room' lesson they've learned plenty from Sean Penn's/Bradley Cooper's characters. PTA just wanted a racist in his movie for extremely cheap and exploitative laughs. IIRC he doesn't even subtitle what his wives said. The audience has no idea if they don't understand them, it just comes off as angry/haughty talk with the nonsequitur that despite being able to accurately translate for them, Higgins's character claims to not speak a word of Japanese. Both of his appearances could have been excised from the film without losing anything.
 

demonicmurry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
110
Sean Penn and Bradley Cooper are based off real life celebrities, so of course they would spend more time on them rather than a cameo.

I would argue that the kids do rebel against the restaurant owner by putting flyers in his establishment after he denies them permission. And to a lesser extend that first scene functions as the introduction to Cooper's mother and the kind of circles she works in before going to their meal at the diner where she says she can't travel with him to NYC. I stand by my interpretation when they return to Higgin's character the fact that he has a new wife doubles down on the disingenuous and racist caricature of the man. The absence of subtitles is interesting and I'm curious for anyone that speaks Japanese can translate as we the audience aren't allowed to access their agency here, which is both frustrating and interesting to me.

Regardless, completely respect your indignation towards the two scenes and the character. It's totally problematic, and obviously not fully successful given how it jolts us out of the movie in cheap shock value manner. I just don't think it's as easily binary to chastise but more interpretative than its given credit for on the Internet. Should PTA cut the scene? Of course he can. It's his artistic work. Though on the other hand, he can keep it in and own up to it and all the problematic elements that reside in the movie given its subject matter. At the end of the day, the movie is the movie and what we have is what we can dissect as a work--warts and all.

On a personal note, for sure I was triggered by the accent and it does feel shitty to have these memories of the voice riled up again. I mean, of course it doesn't feel great and it's a place of privilege for one to find the humor here from a disassociated place. It does and should feel bad. Fro me, this is a problematic movie about an uneasy subject matter and the success will of course be subjective. It's a movie that drives on the emotional than a kind of didactic message or theme. For me it's meant to capture a time, a feeling, and a place rather than a traditional narrative. So anyone that feels strongly about it here, completely fair and totally understand your anger and position.
 

jwk94

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,424
Reading the article, it seems it is in there to represent the racism of the time and that it still happens to the director's relatives.
Yeah just got back from seeing the movie. Dude's not meant to be taken seriously. He's a douche. I'm more surprised that this movie isn't getting flamed for being a rom com about a 15 and 25 year old.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,567
Posting Chen's tweet if you didn't click on article:

That tweet emphasizes audience reaction, and I feel like that is a useful angle to approach this from (in addition to criticizing the scene on its own terms).

Like, I fucking hated The Gentlemen - among all the movies I've actively disliked over the past several years, it is the only one that made me angry while watching it. Guy Ritchie's portrayal of a white guys good, Asian guys bad dynamic was unsurprisingly gross, and the grossness of the movie was affirmed to me when an audience member screamed "kill him!" during a scene where an Asian man attempts to rape a white woman.

Asking yourself as a writer how various members of the audience will process a scene is definitely a useful practice here. Even assuming good intent, a scene so conducive to minority members going "huh" and non-minority members going "haha" just isn't good. Portraying and/or criticizing racism doesn't land when it results in a theater dynamic so one-sidedly burdensome in exactly the wrong way.
 

Jakten

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,767
Devil World, Toronto
people dont speak in imitation accents to their so in real life. who thought this made any sense?

I wouldn't say no one. You should have seen my old employer. One of his favourite things to do was be racist in front of his wife because she lived her whole life in Japan so she didn't understand American racism. He loved to play with it. To her it just sounded like he was being silly or had a hard time pronouncing something or something. He'd be racist towards his kids in front her too and he even said he loved Japanese women because of how submissive they all are in front of her. She didn't know English fluently so she wouldn't pick up on some things. Worst part is he basically could speak fluent Japanese but he'd play off like he didn't to manipulate people.

Some really fucked up people out there.

This is not a refute toward people criticizing this movie either but some people do some really racist and abusive shit when they think they are comfortable. I genuinely worry about her and her kids.
 

francium87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,041
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Definitely not bringing my friend (we are both asians) to watch this now.
I was just about to complain about a casual `asians can't pronounce "r"` usage in poetry I just read too. :(
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,360
I've not seen the movie so I can't comment on those scenes but I do want to push back against the notion that laughter equals endorsement. Like, I don't think anyone endorses the shit in Always Sunny. The laughter comes from the absurd awfulness of the characters.

That said, I've seen enough of PTA's work to know the guy really is clueless to social issues.
 
Nov 27, 2017
1,289
Just saw this movie and I had heard a little bit about this controversy and I was still kind of shocked at how blatant it was. And yeah, it adds nothing to the movie. Whatever PTA's intention was, I feel like it failed.

It's the first thing I think about when I think about this movie now, which kind of sucks.
 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
6,947
Yeah just got back from seeing the movie. Dude's not meant to be taken seriously. He's a douche. I'm more surprised that this movie isn't getting flamed for being a rom com about a 15 and 25 year old.

If it was a 25 year old guy and a 15 year old girl it would. The hypocrisy of such matters always confuses me.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,198
UK
If it was a 25 year old guy and a 15 year old girl it would. The hypocrisy of such matters always confuses me.
There's been plenty of talk about the age difference, just there hasn't been a thread made about it here. I don't see the hypocrisy. People are talking about both issues. Another recent film tackles the grooming much more explicitly and doesn't make the main character to be a good guy.

 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
6,947
There's been plenty of talk about the age difference, just there hasn't been a thread made about it here. I don't see the hypocrisy. People are talking about both issues. Another recent film tackles the grooming much more explicitly and doesn't make the main character to be a good guy.



Sorry, I meant the hypocrisy of people having no issue with the 'love story' in LP who would suddenly show concern if the genders were reversed. Both issues, including the titular one here, definitely need discussing, but I won't be commenting further without seeing the film.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,198
UK
Sorry, I meant the hypocrisy of people having no issue with the 'love story' in LP who would suddenly show concern if the genders were reversed. Both issues, including the titular one here, definitely need discussing, but I won't be commenting further without seeing the film.
Ah I get you. Yeah same, haven't seen Licorice Pizza yet (just came out yesterday in UK) but really liked Red Rocket.
 

H.Cornerstone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,726
Sorry, I meant the hypocrisy of people having no issue with the 'love story' in LP who would suddenly show concern if the genders were reversed. Both issues, including the titular one here, definitely need discussing, but I won't be commenting further without seeing the film.
I just saw it yesterday and it bugged me a lot... I felt like a crazy person because everyone talked about how great a movie this is and I just couldn't get past that.
 

m4st4

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,505
Filmmaker of his status should know better by now.

I was reminded of 48 Hours and Walter Hill's genius, watching Voir last night... Eddie Murphy kinda showed everybody how it's done and I feel in 2022 PTA should look into past and find better examples, they already exist? My two cents.
 

Cheesebu

Wrong About Cheese
Member
Sep 21, 2020
6,177
Yea, it's sucked to see that part played for laughs, and with an actor I like no less.

I'm surprised a feel-good movie about pedophilia is getting such a pass tho.
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,789
the underage thing is such a weird aspect of the film in that it acknowledges it and even plays with it for the most part

I don't want to get into spoilers but it's actually an interesting element of the film until a certain point where there is a big shift

nevertheless after that turning point it's an interesting discussion on whether the film is pushing a "love conquers all" narrative or trying to be a tear down of that idea

I want to buy into the latter idea but at the same time the film just confuses me on whether it is a love letter to that period in time or a criticism of nostalgic pieces that over romanticize the past

in the end I fell that the film wants to have its cake and eat it too

I did enjoy the film but it is probably the most uncomfortable I've felt watching a movie in quite some time
 

Rapscallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,792
It felt like the joke was on the character doing the accent, but I could see how people could feel put off by it.

But yeah, the 25 to 15 year old relationship is the thing that felt the hardest to just give a pass.
 

loco

Member
Jan 6, 2021
5,527
I've seen it in friend groups where one of my white friends has a wife from Mexico that speaks English well, but with a thick accent and they joke back and forth with increasingly thicker and more ridiculous accents, him doing a "cholo" accent, her doing a Minnesota accent.

Is it used to demean the wife or her culture in this movie, or show the relationship and humor between a husband and wife?
I'm Mexican and my wife is Native American. Not once in our entire 15 years together have we ever imitated the accent stereotypes of each other's culture. It would piss me off if she did a cholo accent especially since we have kids that are equally half.

Edit: and someone in her family would probably kick my ass if I did the same to her
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,205
It's "movie of the year" season and it's weird hearing people love this movie without mentioning this at all.

That's even before the whole 'age difference' thing.