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LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?

Pekola

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
"Let the creators decide"

Meanwhile, we're all over here turning into skelletons waiting for the "creators" (heavens knows what this actually means considering how much goes into making a game) to actually do anything.

All this talk about "organic" is misguided and it ONLY (mysteriously) comes up when talking about diversity. We should worry less about some "forced diversity" boogeyman. It doesn't exist. You're not smart or measured for saying "we should let creators create what they want" whenever LGBTQ+ people ask for representation.

Defering to the status quo isn't "artistic freedom". It's lacking in creativity. It's narrow-minded and by the book. Exactly the opposite of being creative.
 
aiswyda

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
I can't speak to quotas or whatever, but I pretty firmly believe:
  • if there's a game with dating options, those dating options generally shouldn't be gender locked. An exception might be something like dragon age which seems to have a pretty good breadth of options.
  • it's really strange to have a token gay character. I'm bi + non binary and I'd say most of the people I'm friends with are lgbtq+. Not intentionally--I've never really sought out lgbtq individuals by visiting a campus center or anything, it just happened that way. That seems to be a common experience for a lot of people I know in more liberal areas. So if you're going to have lgbtq rep (which every game should) make it realistic in that sense.
  • make all games gayer. they're not gay enough.
 
Yata

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,960
Spain
Pekola said:
"Let the creators decide"

Meanwhile, we're all over here turning to into skelletons waiting for the "creators" (heavens knows what this actually means considering how much goes into making a game) to actually do anything.

All this talk about "organic" is misguided and it ONLY (mysteriously) comes up when talking about diversity.

We should worry less about some "forced diversity" boogeyman. It doesn't exist. You're not smart or measured for saying "we should let creators create what they want" whenever LGBTQ+ people ask for representation.

Defering to the status quo isn't "artistic freedom". It's lacking in creativity. It's narrow-minded and by the book. Exactly the opposite of being creative.
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Then someone creates controversial LGBT characters and they are panned because "minority characters should only be written by the minorities themselves!"

Let the creators decide. No one creates anything worthwile if they are forced to shape it exactly as a group of individuals wants it.
 
Novel

Novel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,933
Red Arremer said:
I would like to live in a world where a big RPG series having one gay-specific romance doesn't get called "SJW pandering".
I would like to live in a world where LGBT+ characters weren't either completely irrelevant or serving one of the many tropes, some of which are very harmful (the incredibly homophobic predatory men like in Persona 5, flamboyant over the top gay characters, or the Bury Your Gays trope).
I would like to live in a world where the inclusion of, or even the discussion of including an LGBT+ character of any sort doesn't immediately cause people to go into a reactionary 'It's forced' or 'It doesn't serve the story!!'.
I would like to live in a world where the queer characters we do have are written well, and depicted as normal people, that exist, and have lives and can be relatable even to people that aren't of their orientation or gender identity.
I would like to live in a world where a kid that is struggling with their gender identity or sexuality can pick up a game with a hero that they can relate to, to show them that not only aren't they alone, but that people like them can be heroic and make the world a better place in their own right.
I would like to live in a world where my desire for more representation of the minorities I belong to, and the minorities whose back I have (such as PoC) don't get shut down on the grounds of flimsy excuses, while being constantly put into situations where we have to defend our own existence, and that we too would like to have a beloved character and hero to identify with, for a change.
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I find myself agreeing with most everything you say most of the time, Red. Another great post and point.
 
P-Tux7

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
I find it sad how, by making characters "relateable" to straight white men, they're just creating MORE of a demand for that type of thing because this won't make those guys mentally grow. One of Final Fantasy VI's great strengths is that it has a whole host of characters who are "relatable" just by having sympathetic motivations. Shockingly, I don't need to be female, be a good fighter and or magician, or be raised by a king to relate to Celes' feelings of conflicting loyalty, determination to do the right thing no matter the cost, or feelings of hopelessness because it turns out that thinking "I agree with this woman and I hope the story ends well for her!" isn't such a bad thing for a guy to do. But with all these publishers trying to cater to that 20-something male or teenage male demographic, it won't make their minds grow to be accepting of more varied characters.

Also, just saying, gay people have been "relating" to straight romances in media for a long time now.
 
dock

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
Marginalisation causes marginalisation.

I've sat in development meetings and suffered awful phrases like 'most players', 'average player', 'default character' while they casually dismiss the concerns of anyone that isn't an able bodied male. Things are much better now than 10-15 years ago but it's an uphill struggle.

Games can allow players to spend time in a magical world of infinite potential. Games need not tacitly endorse the worst parts of society.
 
Cyanity

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
LGBT relationships are more interesting than cishet relationships, full stop, so uhhh let's just make all video game relationships LGBT from now on, thanks.
 
Izzard

Izzard

Banned
Sep 21, 2018
4,606
Pekola said:
"Let the creators decide"

Meanwhile, we're all over here turning into skelletons waiting for the "creators" (heavens knows what this actually means considering how much goes into making a game) to actually do anything.

All this talk about "organic" is misguided and it ONLY (mysteriously) comes up when talking about diversity. We should worry less about some "forced diversity" boogeyman. It doesn't exist. You're not smart or measured for saying "we should let creators create what they want" whenever LGBTQ+ people ask for representation.

Defering to the status quo isn't "artistic freedom". It's lacking in creativity. It's narrow-minded and by the book. Exactly the opposite of being creative.
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There's also the issue, and I have no doubt that this has happened, that the creators actually wanted a gay protagonist, but the publisher said no due to a worry about sales.

Let creators decide isn't going to get anything substantial done, or it would already have started happening, and it hasn't.
 
P-Tux7

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
By the way, has it been confirmed that adding in LGBT stuff lessens sales? I hear this boogeyman a lot but I don't know if it's true today. Do a lot of people refuse to buy LGBT stuff and I just don't know about them since they don't post online or in English-speaking communities?
 
Sign My Guestbook!

Sign My Guestbook!

Member
May 26, 2018
23,998
P-Tux7 said:
By the way, has it been confirmed that adding in LGBT stuff lessens sales? I hear this boogeyman a lot but I don't know if it's true today. Do a lot of people refuse to buy LGBT stuff and I just don't know about them since they don't post online or in English-speaking communities?
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Mass Effect was LGBT and sold like gangbusters

The Sims is/was too, I think

The mass market is fine with it as long it's just... "commonplace"?

As in a natural part of a larger game, not the central premise. If it's marketed as a game FOR the LGBT community, then maybe it's seen as more niche?
 
P-Tux7

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
Well, I'd say there's a middle ground. Like, if FFVIII/IX focused on gay relationships as the main instead of straight ones, and released today, I wonder if it would be a deterrent.
 
Juices

Juices

alt account
Banned
Mar 3, 2019
77
It would be great to play games with LGBTQ+ leads where their sexual identity isn't the focus of the community. It's going to be a long time before we reach that spot though. For now, any form of representation in the spotlight would be amazing and greatly appreciated.
 
Juices

Juices

alt account
Banned
Mar 3, 2019
77
BDS said:
Also wanted to remind everyone that before we all go patting Naughty Dog on the back for a woke job well done that Ellie's girlfriend is almost certainly going to die a horrific and violent death and Ellie will be alone and miserable the rest of the game like so many gay characters before her.
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That would be absolutely tragic.
 
Willin

Willin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,082
I couldn't give two shits about how many LGBT+ characters are in games, what's more important is quality.

I would have one fleshed out, intricate gay character over a thousand characters that are only gay in their bio on the game's website.
 
svacina

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Yata said:
Then someone creates controversial LGBT characters and they are panned because "minority characters should only be written by the minorities themselves!"

Let the creators decide. No one creates anything worthwile if they are forced to shape it exactly as a group of individuals wants it.
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There is a shockingly simple solution to this "problem" and that is to have more minority creators.

EDIT: ok, the idea itself is simple; with the way the industry is right now the implementation might not be
 
Pekola

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
Izzard said:
Let creators decide isn't going to get anything substantial done, or it would already have started happening, and it hasn't.
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The argument of "Let creators decide" is just another form of "Don't force diversity". It comes from the misguided view that the original "vision" must be kept.

Of course if people understood how games worked, they'd know tons of ideas never leave the cutting room floor. Tons of "original" visions have to be changed and compromised; either because they don't work or because a publisher/company didn't like it, or needed something else at the time.

So it's silly, that the mere suggestion of having LGBTQ+ characters in, is always met with these statements. If "creators" wanted to, they'd research, consult and educate themselves to make good LGBT characters.

Right now stating that we should let creators decide may as we'll be saying "we should keep things as is." Because the bar is underground for LGBT reps, and asking devs/companies for more isn't forcing them to do sh*t.
 
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Visanideth

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
A proportional criteria would require better and more detailed information than we have. In order to enforce the proportional approach you need to precisely know how many people are LGBT in strict terms, because you're asserting that representation is in direct correlation with real life percentages. And this would mean invading people's privacy.

So no, not proportional. Make as many LGBT characters as you want, and if the end result is that they're over represented in terms of proportionality, remember that representation matters to ever single user: you're not addressing a collective but individuals.

We also need to learn that relatability works both ways. The LGBT community has managed to enjoy straight/cis oriented content for decades. We shouldn't have any issue relating to LGBT protagonists or characters.
 
dock

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,367
When you say 'let the creator decide' you're actually conceding to the 'lowest possible effort' from what are most often older white male producers, who get more say over the scheduling of work than games design.

Anything that can be cut will be cut, and it's only when it becomes a core pillar of the game's identity and marketing.

Most of the representation improvements I've seen in games have been from junior devs who highlight the larger and lucrative communities on YouTube and other social media.

Undertale and Stardew Valley blowing up helped LGBT representation in AAA become financially appealing to people that otherwise might have dismissed it.

Posting on forums that you don't really care that the devs don't care does not help.
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Oudone79 said:
Yes It is
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So you think LGBT+ (or any minority really) characters not having any sort of relevant representation, or meaningful characterization, is good?
You think that the vast majority of game characters being straight white dudes - and forced to be as such by the chairs and PR department of publishers - is good?
You think that any sort of representation of minority characters getting called "pandering" and implied to not deserve to even be there in favour of straight white dudes is good?
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Oudone79 said:
Then maybe there should be more gay writers. I wouldnt like to be told What to write, that doesnt mean It should be only straight protagonist.
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Try being creative in a work atmosphere that is one of the single worst environments and specifically exclusionary towards you.
There's a reason why minorities are struggling so hard to get into the creative fields of work and get acknowledged for it, too. Not just games, though the game industry is by far the most volatile out there. It's a combination of creative and tech fields, and it's not going to get any better by people shrugging and going "well, the best option is to let people create whatever they want".
 

Oudone79

Banned
Jun 21, 2018
114
Red Arremer said:
So you think LGBT+ (or any minority really) characters not having any sort of relevant representation, or meaningful characterization, is good?
You think that the vast majority of game characters being straight white dudes - and forced to be as such by the chairs and PR department of publishers - is good?
You think that any sort of representation of minority characters getting called "pandering" and implied to not deserve to even be there in favour of straight white dudes is good?
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I would love to see more south east asian protagonist first
 
Ereineon

Ereineon

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,214
the thing i dont understand is WHY there is ANY need for representation in any case. i mean... not in this case, but in all.

i mean, usually you should consider any piece or art, literature, movies, games... as an expresion of an idea and cherish it for what they express.
what kind of reality is shown usually reflects contexts of what its important for the message that is intended to showcase.

there are things that could be accesory, or not, but considering that everything has to show/have some quotas of anything is only diminishing both the actual meaning of the object (whatever it is) and the purpose of whatever should be shown.

usually everything comes down to context, and the message/idea to be shown. i understand that people want to see more kind of things in whatever, but sometimes people seem to think that not showing whatever is because of discrimination or something. and maybe... MAYBE its only because it has nothing to do with whatever is being expressed there.

in short. dont over analize things and just enjoy whatever you like without looking for hidden things XD any quotas are bad in general

if i like scary movies i would love to watch them when they come, but i cant try to make all movies scary, for example... that would destroy the concept of my scary movies and also the rest
 
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
Ereineon said:
the thing i dont understand is WHY there is ANY need for representation in any case. i mean... not in this case, but in all.

i mean, usually you should consider any piece or art, literature, movies, games... as an expresion of an idea and cherish it for what they express.
what kind of reality is shown usually reflects contexts of what its important for the message that is intended to showcase.

there are things that could be accesory, or not, but considering that everything has to show/have some quotas of anything is only diminishing both the actual meaning of the object (whatever it is) and the purpose of whatever should be shown.

usually everything comes down to context, and the message/idea to be shown. i understand that people want to see more kind of things in whatever, but sometimes people seem to think that not showing whatever is because of discrimination or something. and maybe... MAYBE its only because it has nothing to do with whatever is being expressed there.

in short. dont over analize things and just enjoy whatever you like without looking for hidden things XD any quotas are bad in general

if i like scary movies i would love to watch them when they come, but i cant try to make all movies scary, for example... that would destroy the concept of my scary movies and also the rest
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I'd say you're missing the point entirely.

It's not about checking off a diversity checklist, it's about the insanely disparate opportunities minorities are given compared to straight white men to produce content in the first place. It's easy to say "let creators create what they want" when the lion's share of attention, funds, and support are given to enforcing the status quo.
 
Ereineon

Ereineon

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,214
Red Arremer said:
So you think LGBT+ (or any minority really) characters not having any sort of relevant representation, or meaningful characterization, is good?
You think that the vast majority of game characters being straight white dudes - and forced to be as such by the chairs and PR department of publishers - is good?
You think that any sort of representation of minority characters getting called "pandering" and implied to not deserve to even be there in favour of straight white dudes is good?
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i think that that representation should be meaninful, not coming from a quota. does GoW protag need to be straight or gay or whatever? it has ANY impact on the game? should him being straight/gay or white/black/green means its a game that discriminates? thats my point XD
 
Ereineon

Ereineon

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,214
Hours Left said:
I'd say you're missing the point entirely.

It's not about checking off a diversity checklist, it's about the insanely disparate opportunities minorities are given compared to straight white men to produce content in the first place. It's easy to say "let creators create what they want" when the lion's share of attention, funds, and support are given to enforcing the status quo.
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yeah, but thats another point whatsoever, i agree on that though, but as they said, its a matter of time and context. usually those voids in content could be used to take the chance and fill the void... but instead of complaining what people should do is try to fill the void, not forcing others to do it ;P

/ups, doble post
 
Karlinel

Karlinel

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
7,826
Mallorca, Spain
I think it should be in an interval between expected and parity, depending on personal preferences. Of course that is if we talk about a population, for something smaller such as a videogame cast, whatever your heart dictates, make it a whole gay city so we can see reddit burn.
 
1.21Gigawatts

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
I think the key is to make sure representation among creators is there, this will hopefully automatically lead to more LGBT representation in games.
But I don't think you can demand thresholds for types of art.

The current underrepresentation is a result of the systemic underrepresentation of women and LGBT people in the industry. The gaming industry has, since its inception, been by default a male dominated medium that mistakenly thought its main audience was male, too.
The resulting bias in content, but also in the make up of development teams, is still clearly visible.
Changing that takes times, but just like the problem was a systemic one, the solution needs to be a systemic one as well.

Forcing more representation without fixing the systemic issues that lead to a lack of representation will not work.
 
Yata

Yata

Member
Feb 1, 2019
2,960
Spain
People are just so idealistic here, way too many unrealistic expectations and hyperbole in this thread alone.

Games have never had as much LGBT+ content as they currently have. Are there still a LOT of problems with the way the are portrayed? Yes, absolutely. And they should be addressed. But goddamn some people want absolute perfection on incredibly sensitive and hard issues to tackle. And people ask why devs are so reluctant to include LGBT+ content of any kind in their games.

1.21Gigawatts said:
Forcing more representation without fixing the systemic issues that lead to a lack of representation will not work.
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Completely agree.
 
Troast

Troast

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
844
Hours Left said:
I'd say you're missing the point entirely.

It's not about checking off a diversity checklist, it's about the insanely disparate opportunities minorities are given compared to straight white men to produce content in the first place. It's easy to say "let creators create what they want" when the lion's share of attention, funds, and support are given to enforcing the status quo.
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In Australia, opportunities are the same when it comes to developers, writers, and any creative of any industry. There is no insane disparity between them, they are equal. Tone down the hyperbole, I am sure its the same in may other progressive countries.
 
ParmeSean

ParmeSean

Member
May 14, 2018
856
Ereineon said:
i think that that representation should be meaninful, not coming from a quota. does GoW protag need to be straight or gay or whatever? it has ANY impact on the game? should him being straight/gay or white/black/green means its a game that discriminates? thats my point XD
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Whats the meaning behind a character being straight and white?
 
Hours Left

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,394
Ereineon said:
yeah, but thats another point whatsoever, i agree on that though, but as they said, its a matter of time and context. usually those voids in content could be used to take the chance and fill the void... but instead of complaining what people should do is try to fill the void, not forcing others to do it ;P
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No one is forcing others to do it. The preferred method would obviously be LGBT content by LGBT/Ally creators.

So instead of "shoehorning" content onto unwilling creators, let's just replace the fossils with people who actually understand and celebrate diversity. I'm fine with narrow minded straights being shown to the door.

In Australia, opportunities are the same when it comes to developers, writers, and any creative of any industry. There is no insane disparity between them, they are equal. Tone down the hyperbole, I am sure its the same in may other progressive countries.
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If you believe this, then I don't know what to say.
 
bixio

bixio

Banned
Mar 10, 2019
192
I honestly don't understand why it matters unless it directly relates to the actual story of the game. If they want to make Master Chief gay, I say go for it, but make that decision relevant to the story instead of tacking on Gay as a buzzword for 2019 woke-enomics. It's kind of insulting to the cause to just have it tacked on with no substance other than "oh yeah, this guy, he has sex with ______ gender.. has nothing to do with anything but now you know." Same goes for Duke Nukem and the very obviously straight characters. I literally just so do not care.

I never sat and wondered if characters who never showed their sexuality to begin with were gay or not. Maybe that's just me though.
 
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