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LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2840
- Start date
Neither: make great games with them as they are conceived as ideas, not from spreadsheets with goals
this. if there's no valid reason for it, the playable character shouldn't be straight.
How many games does being LGBT even matter?
(don't play a lot of story games so while I think this idea would be cool, I'd not be playing these games anyway)
(don't play a lot of story games so while I think this idea would be cool, I'd not be playing these games anyway)
Just write the characters. You can make a cast 120% gay/bi/trans if you want, it's not like there's a scarcity of heteronormative characters or anything.
lol @ "proportional". That's purely farce for faux allies.
Make every game gay as hell. Shove it down every throat.
Make every game gay as hell. Shove it down every throat.
The characters should at least be proportional. But I see no reason why it should stop there. And representation is incredibly important, even if some devs stumble along the way. Having your existence acknowledged can be powerful--even if some of the details are wrong.
The key, I think, will just be working to make sure that LGBTQ characters are treated with an equal footing, lest we overcorrect into "Do No Wrong" stereotypes instead of being people.
The key, I think, will just be working to make sure that LGBTQ characters are treated with an equal footing, lest we overcorrect into "Do No Wrong" stereotypes instead of being people.
The Kinsey report, which is unreliable but so are official government figures.
Generally people don't wanna give out information on their sexuality to databases, so it's hard to confirm or deny it. But the number of people identifying as gay on government databases is consitently rising as it becomes more acceptable to gay so many people say the Kinsey report isn't actually far off mark.
(Plus, anecdotally, I know and have known too many LGBT people in my life across different jobs to believe it's not somewhere around 10%, though I don't hold that belief as equal worth of proper research)
I'm trying to understand what you mean by this. All developers should make their protagonists gay by default, unless they have some explicit justification for making a character straight?
It should be and is whatever the writers , producers and directors want it to be. Inclusion riders should be for the real humans behind the scenes who then will influence the media they create with positive accurate representation
I think ideally it would be somewhere in between. More than just proportional for the sake of visibility, but it doesn't need to be equal either because the majority of people are straight. And of course, any game with a self insert protag with romance options should have queer romance options
It's more that we should think about why characters need to be straight all the time, and what can be done to be more inclusive.
Everyone should be fantastically who they want to be. I'd argue that a proportionate amount would be an interesting element in gaming, meaning something to the like of Watch_Dogs where you'd encounter different profiles/personalities and that would feel rather authentic in a world-building sense. I do believe that representation isn't simply a blanket approach to "well we need a gay and a black person so let us fill the quota!" as that is not understanding the reasoning for representation in the first place.
What should be the case is actual acknowledgement, not shoved in ones face for the sake of brownie points but done appropriately to the setting of the game. That a developer has taken the time to approach, consider and acknowledge the need for diversity to enrich their game ethos. Equality does not mean taking one down a peg to help the other go up, it is about ensuring all pegs are able to access the same level.
Indeed a rather interesting approach. A "normalised" approach to story development where the normality is non-hetero and a path to developing understanding of why should this character be "straight" rather than what the world-building considers normal. I like it.
What should be the case is actual acknowledgement, not shoved in ones face for the sake of brownie points but done appropriately to the setting of the game. That a developer has taken the time to approach, consider and acknowledge the need for diversity to enrich their game ethos. Equality does not mean taking one down a peg to help the other go up, it is about ensuring all pegs are able to access the same level.
Indeed a rather interesting approach. A "normalised" approach to story development where the normality is non-hetero and a path to developing understanding of why should this character be "straight" rather than what the world-building considers normal. I like it.
On this note, I absolutely agree that straight devs should be committed to making LGBT characters in their games, but at the same time I would hope they would be careful and still try to ask for input from the LGBT community to avoid any unfortunate stereotyping or problematic portrayals that might not have been intentional.
It's really frustrating that so much effort has to be spent just at argue that gays should exist in games. I remember back when Mass Effect 3 came out on the old Bioware boards people were arguing that there should be a toggle to remove gay characters from the game. There has been a lot of progress made in the past few years, but people are still just fighting for the right for queers to even exist in games, not to lead them.
I can't express how much I would love to play a game like Persona 5 with a gay lead, or a trans lead. So often in this medium we see the same lead characters, and the same style of stories over and over. Player choice is great, and an easy way to increase inclusion, but I really wish that more creators in this medium would have the nerve to make a cannon gay or lesbian, or trans hero as their lead.
I can't express how much I would love to play a game like Persona 5 with a gay lead, or a trans lead. So often in this medium we see the same lead characters, and the same style of stories over and over. Player choice is great, and an easy way to increase inclusion, but I really wish that more creators in this medium would have the nerve to make a cannon gay or lesbian, or trans hero as their lead.
There should be more to familiarize people with it. The more familiar it is the less people will immediately cringe at the mere mention of it. Atleast that's the dream.
Now that I think about it, what's even the logic behind the proportional argument? I mean I suppose it might be unrealistic if a game took place on planet gay where everyone was gay but I think there are much less realistic things that people don't feel the need to argue over.
Now that I think about it, what's even the logic behind the proportional argument? I mean I suppose it might be unrealistic if a game took place on planet gay where everyone was gay but I think there are much less realistic things that people don't feel the need to argue over.
Yeah, because if you end up without that input is stuff like Mass Effect Andromeda where trans people introduce themselves by deadnaming.
all I'm saying, unless the game involves you repopulating the world, there's no reason for them to be straight.
yep. I think even with the best intentions that can happen in these situations, and while not everyone can or should be expected to drop their job and go into a potentially completely alien field to get this done, pretty much anyone can give some feedback and help avoid problematic issues that some might not be aware of
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns on Representation and Inclusivity
no need to force this everywhere
i just didnt want videogames got taken advantages for some political reason later
honestly i dont really care about this stuff..one of reason i play game so i could 'escape' from real world for awhile
i enjoy videogame due to gameplay,setting,storyline ..like watching movie....no need to concern about will-be-there-or not or whatever about character lgbt interest etc
be there or not,equal or propotional just let how it will be..let it happened
just personal opinion here
i just didnt want videogames got taken advantages for some political reason later
honestly i dont really care about this stuff..one of reason i play game so i could 'escape' from real world for awhile
i enjoy videogame due to gameplay,setting,storyline ..like watching movie....no need to concern about will-be-there-or not or whatever about character lgbt interest etc
be there or not,equal or propotional just let how it will be..let it happened
just personal opinion here
What is the point of putting a specific number on it? Seriously if someone wants to make a gay character or something let them. But when people try and force it in then articles get written about how poorly implemented the gay character is and how it's just for show. It's impossible to win in this situation unless you just allow people to create what they want. Would more representation be welcomed? Sure. But we need to stop trying to force people to create stuff they don't want to create.
There should just be more in general. Doesn't need to break any kind of threshold or fulfill a quota, but I want more diversity period.
We need some specific big media projects that push LGBT in a big way, like how Steven Universe was hyper-focused on it.
The thing is to make the idea clear that everyone in the LGBT space is in fact a normal part of society, and big exposure from popular media is exactly the right way to make it happen.
We can worry about 'proportions' and what have you after these concepts have been normalized completely.
The thing is to make the idea clear that everyone in the LGBT space is in fact a normal part of society, and big exposure from popular media is exactly the right way to make it happen.
We can worry about 'proportions' and what have you after these concepts have been normalized completely.
I think you need to force the issue to an extent, and the issue of poor representation can easily be solved by communicating with individuals in the lgbt community to ensure your portrayals aren't offensive. Obviously if the person in charge really doesn't want to do it or is a bigot they might ignore the advice or even purposefully sabotage the portrayals, but then we should be asking if such a person should be allowed that level of control in the first place
This is the wrong way to look at the situation.
What you should be thinking about is making gaming open enough so that when a developer pitches a game, a publisher doesn't instantly go "uhhhm, well how about instead of a women lead we make it a guy, and also white straight males sell better based on your genre so change that too or we aren't interested"
I mean shit, Sony was getting all bent out of shape over TLoU box cover featuring Ellie as the prominent character on display, just imagine (or don't because we have people who have talked about this) the actual shit that goes on with publishers and developers.
Once that bullshit ends you'll have a much more natural and diverse display of stories and ideas in AAA gaming.
What you should be thinking about is making gaming open enough so that when a developer pitches a game, a publisher doesn't instantly go "uhhhm, well how about instead of a women lead we make it a guy, and also white straight males sell better based on your genre so change that too or we aren't interested"
I mean shit, Sony was getting all bent out of shape over TLoU box cover featuring Ellie as the prominent character on display, just imagine (or don't because we have people who have talked about this) the actual shit that goes on with publishers and developers.
Once that bullshit ends you'll have a much more natural and diverse display of stories and ideas in AAA gaming.
Because as it stands that's how it's been handled and it's nowhere near enough. And there are ways to force it while ensuring representation is still good that are as simple as making sure the devs are having an active dialogue with the lgbt community to avoid pitfalls
What am I supposed to do? I want to *play* games that star LGBT people, not make them.
For instance, I'd absolutely love to play something like this, but I can't make a Persona 5-like game.
Are you forgetting Bioware made an entire species sexy blue lesbians
You can't force people to create a certain kind of art. That's absurd. Like I said people need to be free to create their own art. Do more lgbtq people need to be in positions to make those games and characters? Absolutely. But you're going down a dark path if you start forcing people to make gay characters or any type of character just for the sake of representation.
That's great that you want to play those games. That doesn't mean force people to make games that you want to play. Starting conversations about getting people who want to make those games into a position to actually make those games is a start. But saying you need a specific number of games and that people have to make them isn't gonna further that goal.
This. I'd love more LGBT, but I don't want to force it on devs either. It will come naturally.
BUT it would be nice to have some asexual representation in gaming. This one is definitely overlooked. Everyone can identify with some character and I feel alone in this, hah!
Doesn't need to be a fixed percentage, it just be nice if there was more representation, and it wasn't always tropy. Flamboyant gay people exist. But so do folks who aren't flamboyant. And that's the crux of any conversation about representation. There should be a wide range of gay characters. Characters defined by their sexuality, and characters who aren't. Characters that are funny, charismatic, miserable, optimistic, pessimistic, eccentric, introverted, petty, shallow, warm, inviting.
Not every story is going to need x, y, n z, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some effort from game devs.
Not every story is going to need x, y, n z, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some effort from game devs.
Why is it a dark path? It's not like creators don't already need to alter their vision to suit corporate desires and such as is. I find it hard to believe that there are more than a small handful of games that could claim the original vision was completely uncompromised. And hell, the reality of the situation is likely the exact opposite, where people who pitch games with LGBT, or hell, even just women protagonists are told to change it or the game won't get funded
This is more complicated then you are making it seem. Art and commerce are directly linked in the realm of video games. We have seen the medium time and time again chase popular trends, rather than hold true to their artistic principles. Games are also not made by singular artists striving to create a personal vision. Most AAA games are written by entire teams, with the central narrative being done by some and side quests or character stories being done by others.
So often people use the argument that games exist to make money to justify why they rarely stray from the straight white male perspective. So why is it foul play for the queer community to make themselves more vocal, to present themselves as a market worthy of being recognized. You say change has to come from within, but that isn't the only option. Companies can recognize that there is money to be made from representation and decide that they want a piece of that market. Ideally this will help increase input from LGBT creators and create more writing jobs for them.
And I wouldn't like if it happened the other way either. I think forcing anyone to alter their vision or what they want to create is bad. It's a dark path because forcing people to create a certain thing isn't right.
Yep. The idea that more than a tiny minority of games are the result of a singular creative vision that hasn't been tampered with at all is honestly kind of absurd
KotakuInAction's newest headline/top thread/whatever: "Resetera wants to force straight white male gamers to commit Gamercide, prods us to burn all of our videogame consoles and games in response to their forcing the game industry to suck the dicks of minorities. What'll these fake gamers try to do to us next?"