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LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2840
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I'll agree with this.
As much as more games would benefit from gay romance options, making every party member (and then some) bisexual isn't the way to do it.
I can see for a developer it's nard if they are creation a character to give much choice as developing different cut scenes can take a long time
However personally I think it's inexcusablw in any game where you create a charcuter or not allow for gende, sexuality and race choices
I thought ac odyssey did a good job on this - you oickedone of two and any sexual stuff worked as you wanted
More lik,e that please
However personally I think it's inexcusablw in any game where you create a charcuter or not allow for gende, sexuality and race choices
I thought ac odyssey did a good job on this - you oickedone of two and any sexual stuff worked as you wanted
More lik,e that please
I don't think quotas are a useful way of thinking about it, as long as they are complete and well written characters, it'll be a step up from what we typically see now. And of course make sure players have options to make lgbt characters and interact in lgbt romances when given the choice.
Obviously it makes the most sense (and is technically more ethical) for representation to be proportional in general across media, but some individual things may have more or less representation because of the setting or characters focused on, and that's okay too.
For example, a piece of media with a gay character actively seeking a romantic relationship is going to have disproportional gay representation because he or she will be intentionally seeking out other gay characters. Just like a story about a character living in a predominantly X-ethnicity neighborhood or region is going to have disproportional representation of that demographic.
An intentional quota to have 50% of your characters be gay in a setting that doesn't make sense for it is a bit problematic as it comes across as capitalistic pandering, and might actually pretend that minorities aren't minorities, ignoring any challenges, marginalization, and experiences they might uniquely go through. There will never be exactly equal representation in real life across the world, so it's weird that a fictional world set in the real one would (unless you made a story where that was the whole point).
And with THAT said, it's also important to have LGBT people represented more often in situations where being L, G, B, or T isn't their defining feature or focus. Obviously there should continue to be media that captures their experiences and challenges, but it's important to also have some media that reminds us that they can often lead day-to-day lifestyles that are just as "normal" as heterosexual people, with their sexuality being a passive or irrelevant aspect to their characterization (as it usually is for straight characters). There should be more gay characters that aren't labelled as "the gay character."
For example, a piece of media with a gay character actively seeking a romantic relationship is going to have disproportional gay representation because he or she will be intentionally seeking out other gay characters. Just like a story about a character living in a predominantly X-ethnicity neighborhood or region is going to have disproportional representation of that demographic.
An intentional quota to have 50% of your characters be gay in a setting that doesn't make sense for it is a bit problematic as it comes across as capitalistic pandering, and might actually pretend that minorities aren't minorities, ignoring any challenges, marginalization, and experiences they might uniquely go through. There will never be exactly equal representation in real life across the world, so it's weird that a fictional world set in the real one would (unless you made a story where that was the whole point).
And with THAT said, it's also important to have LGBT people represented more often in situations where being L, G, B, or T isn't their defining feature or focus. Obviously there should continue to be media that captures their experiences and challenges, but it's important to also have some media that reminds us that they can often lead day-to-day lifestyles that are just as "normal" as heterosexual people, with their sexuality being a passive or irrelevant aspect to their characterization (as it usually is for straight characters). There should be more gay characters that aren't labelled as "the gay character."
I think it's still a rarity. Other than Bethesda and Bioware RPGs as well as Dragon's Dogma which was a looooong time ago, there aren't much of them.
We have more open world games than ever, but most still have a predefined main character. AC Odyssey at least a move in the right direction even though lacking character creation.
I think it's entirely up to the devs and what feels authentic to them. It's not a straightforward answer, but I think the bare minimum is "some" representation to acknowledge their fanbase, from there I'd love for LGBT devs and allies to tell their stories.
The reason why I don't think proportional is the right answer is because while ~10% is the long held % of queer people in the world, I don't think that's true for the gaming development community. I get the impression it's higher.
The reason why I don't think proportional is the right answer is because while ~10% is the long held % of queer people in the world, I don't think that's true for the gaming development community. I get the impression it's higher.
I think it would be nice if the ratio of confirmed straight and/or cis characters vs. confirmed LGBT characters was at least proportional to the real life percentages (if not more heavily sided to LGBT) across the industry in general. But, I don't think it should be like a mandate or anything, I just think it would be a healthy way for things to be, I guess?
Yeah, I don't see angry rants every time a character is straight. Nobody questioned why Nathan Drake had to be straight. Nobody made strawmen about straight characters ruining director's visions. There is some blatant homophobia in terms of how these conversations happen.
It's the kind of answer you come up with when you've never had to think about this in your life.
Which AAA games have a gay protagonist? other than the "choose your own sexuality" Bioware-like games , i don't remember many gay characters (let alone, protagonists) in games, which is problematic on it's own.
I think the internet might be warping reality for you a bit.
There are plenty of homophobic people out there but please don't be so quick to make up your mind and label someone.
Stretching the definition of protagonist here, but Tracer and Soldier 17 are two of the more iconic faces of Overwatch, and they're both gay.
There is no way to avoid the word "quota" or similar in the discussion this threads brings up, though, as the discussion is specifically about whether representation should meet specific values. You're also ignoring the potential that people using the term don't necessarily think representation should be less than any theoretical 'quota'.
If you asked me personally I'd actually like to see representation of LGBT be more than proportional purely for the sake of more variety. However that's different from what I think characters SHOULD be, which is something that serves the artists vision, like any element of game design or art in general.
Can i ask what your take is on this? Obviously i don't know your opinion or background but i'd love to hear some feedback. Does this comment mean that you would advocate for actual quotas of some sort?
I would think the process for that would depend on the developer but even then I'd imagine still difficult even to have for backstory of MP characters like you brought up.
I asked about this before and I think we concluded that The Last of Us Part II is the first AAA game to have a sole playable protagonist who is openly known to be queer before the game was released.
Probably because straight people make up the majority of the population. Not that hard to figure out.
I'm not even one of the ones saying 'story only purposes'. I just think it's weird and backwards to say to devs "You have to include such and such because we need to hit this number". We do need more diversity in gaming but it should be done by pushing more LGBT people, women etc. to get into the industry and make games for the communities that they want to make them for. Forcing people to include things they don't want to to meet a statistic is just gonna create bitterness.
In my opinion, it would be good if games (and other media) were at least proportional to society. To that end, just make every character in every game LGBT+ for the next few years or so (at the very least).
I mean, like I said, ideally we'd never have quotas and sufficiently acceptable representation would naturally occur from creators who were happily including queer characters because they wanted to.
I think, in this day and age, we should ask ourselves why characters need to be white, or male, or cis, or straight, and we should be more willing to signal boost for queer creators who are actively trying to rectify this issue.
"Hello yes straight person please justify your existence? Like why are you... here, being so straight? Are you going for tragedy? I just don't see the point. 2/10 pandering SJW nonsense."
More specifically it's the most definitive LGBT protagonist. Their sexuality isn't hidden among player choices or revealed out of game or in a manner that can be dismissed or ignored.
That's why we saw a huge backlash even here, because there's simply no denying Ellie's gay now in any way. No one can say it was a retcon or that it was "just how kids act together" (wtf at those posters)or just unimportant dlc. The main protagonist of the biggest most anticipated game series this year is definitively and undeniably gay.
Warren Graham in Life Is Strange is forced straight representation
But isn't this point ignoring that the industry has often forced artistic changes onto game developers? We have heard stories about games with women leads being subjected to external pressures to change their story. We've heard stories of how marketing would put a male character on the box art even if he was just the co lead or one option in the character creator. You cannot expect women and LGBT people to just join the industry and maybe after years of working, maybe be allowed to make a game with the leads they want.
LGBT consumers and allies should push games to include increased representation and the market should adjust to meet that demand. That some authors have to adjust or expand their scope isn't exactly a bad thing. Most games are not written by just one person, and meeting a demand of LGBT content could be a way to create jobs for LGBT writers.
Or it's the level-headed answer you come up with when you understand how dumb the idea of filling quotas for character's race/sexuality in entertainment is.
There's more representation in gaming now than there has ever, ever, ever been - and it will only continue to improve. But artificially basing the creative process on percentages and ratios is not the way, that's a horrible idea.
But go ahead, make your assumptions.
Yeah, i knew about TLOU2 (which i think it's great), but didn't count it because has not been released yet.
Did you get the point i'm making? how can we start arguing about the amount/type of representation of gay characters in games, when there is almost no representation at all (at least at this moment).
No queer character has ever been included on the grounds of a quota.
Realistically there's never going to be a 'right' amount because if all video game developers were queer than the vast majority of games would feature queer protagonists and relationships because that's just how this stuff works out. People tend to make media that appeals to them, even in commercial industries.
And hence why the only way you're going to get proportional representation to any major degree is by having proportional representation in development.
But even then we've already probably tipped the point where there are more gay/bi characters in games than there are in the real world, but given that many of them are just word of god-type stuff or romance options in NPC it certainly doesn't feel like it's usually a reflection of the real world.
Fiction is not beholden to percentages from the real world. Star Trek is an "inaccurate" portrayal of how many people work on FTL spaceships because in real life there are no FTL spaceships, therefore 0% of the population works on one.
You can't have "too many" gay characters (for example) in fiction because it isn't a finite resource that must be divvied up. Someone can go write yet more stories with whatever kind of characters they want to see.
The value in representation isn't in making fiction align perfectly with the real world, but in using fiction as a way to communicate with an audience.
You can't have "too many" gay characters (for example) in fiction because it isn't a finite resource that must be divvied up. Someone can go write yet more stories with whatever kind of characters they want to see.
The value in representation isn't in making fiction align perfectly with the real world, but in using fiction as a way to communicate with an audience.
Some creators will make games specifically about LGBTQ experiences where many characters belong to that community. Other games may not focus on romantic or sexual elements at all and thus most characters are not definitively in any of those camps. As a result, it seems effectively impossible to consider legitimate percentages of representation across the industry. On a per game basis I would certainly argue that representation is a very excellent thing to see and I would urge more creators to think on it, but tokenism could be an undesirable result of adding representation without good consideration. Codifying degrees of 'nessecary' representation feels artificial in a way that I'd prefer the path ahead in terms of representation not take.
As a bisexual man I suppose my notion towards other creators would be less of "try to include this amount of LGBTQ characters in your games and stories" and rather something along the lines of this:
When you tell stories, there will always be the natural inclination to write stories upon which you immediately sympathize. I find often when I'm creating a story that I create primary characters unnervingly like me. Often this is subconscious and not even noticeable. But when this happens, do a double-take on the story you're telling. Consider if a slightly different experience or context might be applied were you to look towards other perspectives. In the process, you may end up having a greatly positive effect on communities who are sometimes in need of media which reflects them. In the process you are likely to tell a more unique story, one outside of your, and society's, wheelhouse. Consider how little harm such a change could ever do, and how much good it could offer. If it is so easy to tell a story reflecting themes and experiences you find familiar, think of the value in challenging yourself to seek the telling of experiences not always reflected around your or within you, and how valuable the telling could be for those listening so desperately for anything of the sort. And if your experiences are outside the norm, then the value of pursuing the telling of your own perspective, considerations, and struggles, is also impeccably valuable for the perspective it adds and the people like you it might speak to.
So I think arguing for 15% or 50% feels... arbitrary and also not truly possible. But I would at least put forth that representation matters, and creators (and those who fund and support them) are the better for considering the value to their art, to society, and to the people who need that representation as they consider the story they want to tell. And also, as cannot be emphasized enough: make sure that you are open to all sorts of people not like yourself be involved in these creation processes. They'll bring new perspectives that can make these stories more interesting, more accurate, and often more compelling for the effort.
As a bisexual man I suppose my notion towards other creators would be less of "try to include this amount of LGBTQ characters in your games and stories" and rather something along the lines of this:
When you tell stories, there will always be the natural inclination to write stories upon which you immediately sympathize. I find often when I'm creating a story that I create primary characters unnervingly like me. Often this is subconscious and not even noticeable. But when this happens, do a double-take on the story you're telling. Consider if a slightly different experience or context might be applied were you to look towards other perspectives. In the process, you may end up having a greatly positive effect on communities who are sometimes in need of media which reflects them. In the process you are likely to tell a more unique story, one outside of your, and society's, wheelhouse. Consider how little harm such a change could ever do, and how much good it could offer. If it is so easy to tell a story reflecting themes and experiences you find familiar, think of the value in challenging yourself to seek the telling of experiences not always reflected around your or within you, and how valuable the telling could be for those listening so desperately for anything of the sort. And if your experiences are outside the norm, then the value of pursuing the telling of your own perspective, considerations, and struggles, is also impeccably valuable for the perspective it adds and the people like you it might speak to.
So I think arguing for 15% or 50% feels... arbitrary and also not truly possible. But I would at least put forth that representation matters, and creators (and those who fund and support them) are the better for considering the value to their art, to society, and to the people who need that representation as they consider the story they want to tell. And also, as cannot be emphasized enough: make sure that you are open to all sorts of people not like yourself be involved in these creation processes. They'll bring new perspectives that can make these stories more interesting, more accurate, and often more compelling for the effort.
Love having straight people lecture me about their opposition to more LGBT content is fine and I'm the actual enemy for saying that's indicative of homophobic attitudes. Real charming place here.
We're in agreement, I was noting that the first game meeting that qualification hasn't even been released yet.
Lol, for real. He straight up felt like a character who was ONLY included so people wouldn't get "the wrong idea" about Max.
However much is needed to get to the point of it not being a noteworthy addition but just another commonplace occurrence, which probably means a good deal more than proportional but maybe not strictly equal. Trying to affix a number or percentage doesn't really mean much or is even practical, we need a great deal more than what we have now, especially in leading roles.
Two things really need to happen to reach that point. 1) We need more diversity in development itself and especially in positions of power. 2) We need all devs to not automatically think of straight cis white men as the default and to ask themselves "why not" instead of not at all or at best "why" when designing characters and stories as though LGBTQ+ or non-white characters/relationships need some kind of justification in order to be included, because if they're really honest there's rarely ever a reason why a character couldn't be something other than a white guy or a relationship couldn't be same sex.
Two things really need to happen to reach that point. 1) We need more diversity in development itself and especially in positions of power. 2) We need all devs to not automatically think of straight cis white men as the default and to ask themselves "why not" instead of not at all or at best "why" when designing characters and stories as though LGBTQ+ or non-white characters/relationships need some kind of justification in order to be included, because if they're really honest there's rarely ever a reason why a character couldn't be something other than a white guy or a relationship couldn't be same sex.
Give players agency.
This is one thing I love about Assassin's Creed Odyssey. Kassandra/Alexios is whatever you want the character to be based on your interactions with the world and how you choose to respond to the characters in it.
This is one thing I love about Assassin's Creed Odyssey. Kassandra/Alexios is whatever you want the character to be based on your interactions with the world and how you choose to respond to the characters in it.
It's this. The caveat is that people from diverse genders, races, backgrounds, whatever, need to have the same opportunity to make games. It's not a math calculation, we just need to make sure there's not prejudice in the industry preventing anyone from making the games they want.
But even that has limits, as the DLC took away agency from LGBT players.
It's quite awful that we're arguing about quotas and posters are genuinely implying diversity is being forced when there's almost no gay male protagonists that I can think of. I think Dreamfall Chapters maybe and that's it.
Like there must be hundreds of male playable characters out there that will briefly refference an interest in women for maybe a single line. Or heck many that don't. Can't just a single one be gay? Not even in the games with like five or ten playable characters?
Like there must be hundreds of male playable characters out there that will briefly refference an interest in women for maybe a single line. Or heck many that don't. Can't just a single one be gay? Not even in the games with like five or ten playable characters?
