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PC Input will provide better quality (using 4:4:4 ISF instead of Game) with same low Input Lag only for SDR, while it will be worse in HDR (4:2:0 HDR as 4:2:2 will cause massive introduced color banding, and input lag will also be higher. Plus you would be stuck with the inaccurate and highly clipping PC HDR standard if you want Luminance as all other HDR Modes will look dim in PC Mode, as those won't support Active HDR or Dynamic Contrast there).
TL;DR Don't use PC Mode except for SDR. If you want mixed usage or HDR as main usage use non-PC + SDR/HDR Game Modes.
Not sure this is of interest but, fully sussed the colour variances in terms of saturation that we had recently. The High DC colours dont track/align correctly to technicolor expert. So in one scenario the colours will align closer than other times. Which is why in one scenario it would look ok and others it will look either under or over saturated (usually the later). I guess this is linked to the luminance curve. In short High DC will mess with colour accuracy. And imo its a lot.
You're correct.
You can use X1X SDR/HDR Settings also for PS4 Pro and Switch, just remember to set both console similarly (e.g. put PS4 Pro all on Automatic, and Switch to 8-bit Color Depth + Standard/Limited Color Space).
The goal remains to achieve RGB Limited or YUV420 at 8-bit for SDR, and YUV422 at 10-bit for HDR. (X1X does this automatically when setting the console to 8-bit + Standard Color Space).
Both to match TV Black Level: Low both for SDR and HDR Game Modes.
And yes, you can safely use webOS settings for all movie devices. Also those to set similarly to X1X/PS4 Pro.
That's the nature of "Dynamic" Contrast at full application, but after many hours of testing with different Games (BFV, BF1, Forza Horizon 4, Gears 4, AC: Origins, RE7 and more) and Movies/4K-HDR BluRays (Avengers Infinity War, Deadpool 2, Planet Earth 2 and more) I can safely say that deviations from almost perfect accuracy of HDR Technicolor Expert with Active HDR are minor, and using the V5.3 profile instead of Medium DC it's worth the huge luminance benefit on almost every scene.
Did you try V5.3?
Did you set PS4 Pro to Standard/Limited Color Space?
I found the HDR Luminance much improved with High DC, so reflections and highlights should "shine" much more compared to previous settings.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Your idea of minor and mine are different. I've paused some scenes to find them way off. Or at least what I consider to be way off. None the less I do thank you for your Medium DC settings. :)
Thanks!
One last thing, I'm a bit confused by the White Balance settings for the WebOS SDR settings. Do I need them set to 2 point or 20 points?
Seems correct to me.
Both.
For example start with 2 point, then once you finish switch to 20 point and set also those values.
But ill stick with v 5.3 for couple days. In the end we are here to play games with good brightness. Not watching movies . I pushed color to 60 , i prefer this option.
The loss in Detail depends on the scene , indoor/outdoor.
Horizon Zero Dawn is a bit better with DC high (atleast the night area im playing right now)
Ah, so both are essentially 'active' at the same time? They're just persistent settings so it doesn't matter which you leave it on in the menu?
Yes, those are two sets of values both working at the same time. So, yeah, no matter the order you start with (or you leave from).
Once they're both applied, they're in.
Color to 60 is a bit of an overkill with Wide Gamut, too oversaturated to me.
If you switched back to Auto + 60, it's OK as an alternative.
Whatever you prefer in the end anyway... ;)
Thanks so much for all of this!
One other question relating to the screenshot above. What's the reason for choosing limited RGB range over Full RGB range? I honestly have no idea what it's doing, I'm coming from a general "more is better" mindset when I ask that.
Limited is correct as it matches the recommended Black Level: Low settings of the TV
This is super important, as it's physically impossible to do Full RGB 4:4:4 HDR at 10-bit due to physical HDMI 2.0 cable bandwidth limitations.
Ah I see, so Full RGB might become the recommendation later, but likely not until the next major HDMI revision.
I'll make sure my Xbox/PS4 are set to Limited.
What about the Switch though? Should that be at Full or Limited? Given that it doesn't do HDR content and everything is SDR there.
Updated to the latest settings, even all the white point which I wouldn't normally do for other TVs. Only settings haven't used are the DV as don't currently have a Netflix subscription and the custom file looks slightly complicated.
How do you reset the custom DV table thing if I do use it eventually?
Thanks for all your work P40L0
How do you reset the custom DV table thing if I do use it eventually?
Thanks for all your work P40L0
05.80.10 is the latest i can find for the C7V (European version of the C7 series), but i do see that the latest firmware is dated 17/12 which is weird since 05.80.10 has been out for around a week now.
I think 05.80.15 is US only (C7P version).
You can reset the DV profile, factory reset the TV or I can provide you a restore DV file to patch it again.
No one asked it to me so far after the patch.
It was really an universal improvement over the overly dark defaults ;)
Oh man, geez. I've finally got High DC to align colours a lot better after hours. I did a full reset on all the white balance and colour management settings then realigned the basics with some help from Steve Withers settings from AVForums. This eliminated most of the over saturation and colour accuracy issues in High DC straight away. I then chose to align mine with a calibrated Cinema HDR profile. I've got it pretty much spot on now.
Also I found Far Cry 5 to be THE hardest game to align colour wise, because of how High Dynamic contrast affects its colours and lighting. Its completely different to pretty much any other HDR game I tested including RDR2, Chess Ultra, FH4 amongst several others I tested.
The only other thing I will add, is that your original High DC colour on Auto gamut is far better for some reason than Wide in a couple of awkward scenarios I came across.
I'm finally happy now. It was only the colour accuracy I couldn't get right and I've now fully resolved it, albeit differing from yours in the end. Glad I'm there, as I can get back to just enjoying things now. The biggest help you gave me was your love for High DC and the brightness solution to the black crush. I wouldn't have got it without that. So many thanks again.
Also I found Far Cry 5 to be THE hardest game to align colour wise, because of how High Dynamic contrast affects its colours and lighting. Its completely different to pretty much any other HDR game I tested including RDR2, Chess Ultra, FH4 amongst several others I tested.
The only other thing I will add, is that your original High DC colour on Auto gamut is far better for some reason than Wide in a couple of awkward scenarios I came across.
I'm finally happy now. It was only the colour accuracy I couldn't get right and I've now fully resolved it, albeit differing from yours in the end. Glad I'm there, as I can get back to just enjoying things now. The biggest help you gave me was your love for High DC and the brightness solution to the black crush. I wouldn't have got it without that. So many thanks again.
My screen flickers black for a quick second once in awhile and back only during 4k hdr content.
I literally just bought these HDMI cables......god damn it. Can no one make a gold quality cable. They are even rated for 21Gbps and made by Onyx......
I literally just bought these HDMI cables......god damn it. Can no one make a gold quality cable. They are even rated for 21Gbps and made by Onyx......
HDR Game mode has no White Balance / CMS sections to adjust or reset to.
What are the exact settings you end up to? I'd like to give it a try and compare ;)
EDIT: I tried the Steve Withers settings, but W50 is too warm for HDR Game with DC on High, and in order to achieve the same white as Technicolor I had to put it back to W45. Its suggestion to put Color to 55 + Wide is interesting using DC set to High, and its actually closer to Technicolor as color reproduction, just slightly more saturated and with more "pop" due to higher contrast. I like it :)
Auto gamut has still something wrong when using DC set to High, it "mutes" the colors compared to calibrated HDR Technicolor, so Wide can offset this and get close again.
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It should be automatic technically.
When it is automatic it will send RGB 8bit for non HDR games, and when it sends a HDR signal it will switch to YUV420 for 10bit HDR.
As for Limited vs Full Limited is legal video 16-235. Full is 0-255. Unless you are running it on a PC input and set it calibrate it for full range 0-255 no one should be using full. Full is really made for PC's not any other consumer video product, such as game consoles, bluray players, streaming boxes, set top boxes etc.
Use Auto or RGB. This will ensure that RGB is used for SDR and YUV422 for HDR. In order to force YUV420 you need to select that manually, which was useful to limit banding when using PC Mode.
Reset all profiles both SDR and HDR across all inputs and went from there. Don't know how, but it got rid of the red issue I had....
No, there's some other settings he provided specifically for the 65inch 17 oled with gamut auto. But my main change from your settings, is auto gamut 55, w50 for Far Cry 5 and auto 64, w50 for all other games. I've left it on 60 for a compromise (which aligns funny enough with one of your earlier suggestions I believe).
Withers line in the sand is auto 55, w50 and reaffirmed late 2018 when questioned. But that is without any DC messing with luminance and brightness changes. Wide gamut ruins Far Cry 5 colour accuracy, whilst the game also doesn't need any colour boost with the brightness and luminance increase from High DC. All other games I tried do.
EDIT: just to mention I used a non active HDR, but calibrated Cinema HDR profile to get colour accuracy. I know you use technicolor expert active HDR, but to each his own, its my preference. ;)
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So can you post what settings you have settled on? Have you left brightness at 53 also??
Sure, apologies for not fully clarifying as it was asked earlier too.
OLED 100,
CONTRAST 100,
BRIGHTNESS 53,
SHARPNESS 10,
COLOUR 60 (55 to 64 dependant on game)
TINT 0,
DC High,
COLOUR GAMUT Auto,
GAMMA Medium,
COLOUR TEMP W50,
BLACK LEVEL, Low
Xbox One X: 422 enabled and all modes ticked, standard colour space and 10bit colour depth (8 bit should be fine too as shoudn't effect HDR, but I had an issue/bug a while ago on 8 bit, so for me 10bit).
Please note, when using any DC, settings can become subjective. However these are my preferred ones. LG 65C7, UK, Firmware 05.80.10, 4,800hrs, recent full pixel refresh.
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Ok, now I understand our different opinion on color saturation… :)
If you select anything other than 8-bit on X1X Video Settings, the console will take native output and try to convert it before sending it out to the TV, and I noticed that when it does, it adds saturation compared to native.
The V5.3 profile is tailor made with X1X (and PS4 Pro) native output without any other middle reconversions.
- Stealth HDR Game mode minor update up V5.3.2
- Also updated all non-Game profiles enabling TruMotion with De-Judder: 0 + De-Blur: 0 to fix introduced motion stuttering on 60hz contents after firmware 5.80.xx (both SDR/HDR Game modes are not affected)
My understanding:
The 8bit vs 10bit setting only impacts SDR and not HDR.
If you have it set to 8bit, it will auto switch to 10bit 422 when engaging HDR = 422, 10 bit HDR. In 10bit mode, it will already be in 10bit 422 = 422, 10bit HDR. I've just tested and no difference whatsoever once HDR is engaged. The only argument for setting 8 bit is if you wanted 8 bit RGB in SDR and not 10 bit 422 in SDR, though I never notice a difference in SDR. Which ever way you go for SDR, it will never be 444 anyway as its not in PC mode. So the question then becomes do you want SDR: RGB 422 equivalent chroma or ycbcr 422 chroma. Regardless the debate becomes solely focused on SDR and not HDR.
TL;DR either mode will engage the correct HDR setting.
The 8bit vs 10bit setting only impacts SDR and not HDR.
If you have it set to 8bit, it will auto switch to 10bit 422 when engaging HDR = 422, 10 bit HDR. In 10bit mode, it will already be in 10bit 422 = 422, 10bit HDR. I've just tested and no difference whatsoever once HDR is engaged. The only argument for setting 8 bit is if you wanted 8 bit RGB in SDR and not 10 bit 422 in SDR, though I never notice a difference in SDR. Which ever way you go for SDR, it will never be 444 anyway as its not in PC mode. So the question then becomes do you want SDR: RGB 422 equivalent chroma or ycbcr 422 chroma. Regardless the debate becomes solely focused on SDR and not HDR.
TL;DR either mode will engage the correct HDR setting.
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I'm not so sure about that.
Some weeks ago I tested the exact differences between selecting 8-bit, 10-bit and even 12-bit on X1X Video Settings, both in SDR and HDR, and in both cases color reproduction and contrasts were always different between them.
Leaving 8-bit, and testing patterns there showed accurate colors and contrast both in SDR and HDR, on forced 10-bit SDR was a bit crushed and colors more saturated, and even if in a less pronounced way the same thing also happened with HDR. Selecting 12-bit I even found interesting results as color banding was hugely better both in SDR and even better in HDR, but blacks got a lot crushed in SDR and colors were similar to Wide gamut saturation even if the TV was set to Auto in HDR.
Since then I never trusted the X1X software reconversions, and I always left the setting to 8-bit so for it to always pass native source format to the TV to decode.
So the settings are based on this scenario.
No, it looks as accurate as possible offsetting most if not all the color washing that High DC introduces.
Forza Horizon 4 and BFV look even better than HDR Technicolor with Active HDR with it... :)
Hmm, interesting. I know the xbox according to Vincent at HDTVtest said the xbox OS runs natively in RGB when in SDR, so I get the differences there and I expect them. But I dont understand why there would be any difference when it switches into HDR, as in both scenarios it would have to send data at 10bit 422 (unless you were using 12bit to try and support some kind of Dolby Vision). So that is very weird and nothing I can spot in my testing of it tonight. My colours look identical. At the end of the day we just want our colours differently I think. And thats fine. Wide 55 is seriously insane in Far Cry 5. But hey to each there own.
Tonight I was playing for a while with no DC on and 100% mapped to Cinema HDR and tbh I loved it. The accuracy is sublime with highlights far more pronounced, because the rest of the scene is toned down. But of course all that means a darkened room. Point is, it did remind of where I was once before in terms of total accuracy and I appreciated it. Games with a luminance slider and no dc works remarkably well.
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P40L0 can you perhaps provide a colour setting for HDR Standard? I have tried all HDR modes for gaming with all mentioned settings but nothing comes close to HDR Standard. The added luminance is a massive step up in games like God of War and AC Origins. I want to use it so I'm settling on the colours now. Its currently at 62 + Auto, but some tints can get too bright for instance. Any tips or settings perhaps? Any other settings I should worry about?
These HDR gaming profile settings are changing daily. I can see how some people can get frustrated as the settings recommended last week are now drastically different to whats live in the OP now.
Personally I like seeing these changes to test myself and fine tune the right setting for my personal viewing preference, but are we shying away from the image being "accurate" at this point in favour of user preferences?
Although with whites, I thought W45 was the ideal setting as DC High made whites warmer naturally, but now I see its back to W50 with DC still on high?. In the last 24 hours I also noticed color change from 44 to 44 with option of 55 and now just 55.
Are these changes purely just based off user feedback at this point rather than proper accuracy of the image measured with a device?
Question:
I understand recently the change to Color 55 in HDR Game mode made colors "pop" more which I really like (at first it seemed over saturated from the previous posted settings, but my eyes are adjusting as I do prefer the more vivid colors usually). Is there a recommended setting for SDR Game mode to also make colours "pop" without becoming over saturated?
Personally I like seeing these changes to test myself and fine tune the right setting for my personal viewing preference, but are we shying away from the image being "accurate" at this point in favour of user preferences?
Although with whites, I thought W45 was the ideal setting as DC High made whites warmer naturally, but now I see its back to W50 with DC still on high?. In the last 24 hours I also noticed color change from 44 to 44 with option of 55 and now just 55.
Are these changes purely just based off user feedback at this point rather than proper accuracy of the image measured with a device?
Question:
I understand recently the change to Color 55 in HDR Game mode made colors "pop" more which I really like (at first it seemed over saturated from the previous posted settings, but my eyes are adjusting as I do prefer the more vivid colors usually). Is there a recommended setting for SDR Game mode to also make colours "pop" without becoming over saturated?
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In fairness, you are challenging accuracy and then asking if he can deviate from accuracy in SDR to give you more pop, which means it won't be accurate. Unfortunately in gaming HDR anything using DC will deviate from accuracy. But like you, it's good to explore.
I guess what I'm asking is, how far can I push Color in SDR without it over-saturating the IQ, as per updated settings in HDR to provide that extra "pop" without going too far.
I must say, this is the closest game mode has come to matching calibrated cinema/technicolor profiles. Quite impressed!
Hopefully there will be no more changes 😬
You hope right.
From an accuracy point of view, Forza Horizon 4 looks so close to calibrated HDR Technicolor with Active HDR now that I won't adjust even a single digit of any value.
+ it's also brighter and with more luminance in 90% of cases… :D
Considering also that FH4 was set to 4.000 nits (same as 4K/HDR Blu-Rays) and the great results I also got from movies, V5.3.2 is ready and will look fantastic also in a mixed usage scenario.
I find v5.3.2 the best so far, even though I set color to 55 and temp at W15-20 at most. After that everything seems to yellow for me.
About the trumotion settings, is it possible to give more details or even better an example to test, of what exactly is wrong?