No, as it makes leveling up pointless. If I spent hours grinding levels you better let me become the walking demigod that has no issues disintegrating any enemy in a lower level area of the game. As that's my reward for grinding.
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Let's see once for all, do you like enemy level scaling in games?
- Thread starter dex3108
- Start date
No. I do my research beforehand, and if a game has said mechanic implemented the game is immediately dismissed. I've played my fair share of games with said mechanic and none of them gave me a satisfying playthrough, so now I pass them by.
Fuck no.
What's the point of a progression and leveling system if your game will constantly invalidate it?
What's the point of a progression and leveling system if your game will constantly invalidate it?
I fell in love with Souls after venturing into the Catacombs too early, pretty much getting stuck down there, and having to think & fight my way out.
Moments like that or my mad early level dash for the Ghostgate and ensuing Glass Armor Set heist in Morrowind can't happen when games nerf themselves for my benefit.
I also just enjoy the process of building characters who are able survive and explore further & further. Exploration is best when it goes hand in hand with character progression.
Moments like that or my mad early level dash for the Ghostgate and ensuing Glass Armor Set heist in Morrowind can't happen when games nerf themselves for my benefit.
I also just enjoy the process of building characters who are able survive and explore further & further. Exploration is best when it goes hand in hand with character progression.
As others have said it works in FF8, it's flawed but makes it a bit interesting. Outside of that enemies should scale with the appropriate level with a bit of a challenge on the whole and those the feel the need to grind (not that you should need to excessively, maybe a smidge with some tactical choices) should be able to destroy a game.
No, I can't stand it. I like the power trip of going back to earlier locations and breezing through enemies, and I also am a big level grinder. Enemy scaling makes level grinding mostly pointless, so it honestly kinda kills games for me that do it.
I wish there was a "to an extent" option. Like a sliding scale of scaling. Enemies in the opening areas slide from levels 1-5 for example. That way there's a point to engaging with them for a little while. But the opening mooks should be a challenge to a level 99 death god.
It can be done well - The Witcher 3 - Wild Hunt is a prime example, but it so often isn't. Assassin's Creed games are notoriously bad at it - a low level player character who stumbles into a high level area in say, Odyssey - just by sailing to a random island - that attacks an enemy that's around ten levels or higher may as well be punching a metal statue in the face for all the damage they'll do. It's stupid - higher levels should be about opening up more skillsets and an extremely slow build-up of muscles (taking AC games as examples again), that leads to melee kills being slightly easier to pull off.
And don't get me started on their insistence on using inhumanly large, bulky NPC's to indicate you're about to fight someone tough. There is a never-ending stream of them and when you've dispatched your tenth, they no longer have the effect the developers intended, and they're just another enemy to get through. Same old.
And don't get me started on their insistence on using inhumanly large, bulky NPC's to indicate you're about to fight someone tough. There is a never-ending stream of them and when you've dispatched your tenth, they no longer have the effect the developers intended, and they're just another enemy to get through. Same old.
I don't like it. The main implementation that I like is a soft scaling, especially the end boss, where if you have that at the "expected level" they have a base set of moves but if you max your character out the end boss might be a little higher and have another move or two.
I wish it were used more often. I know people like making numbers go up, but when you lock enemies to certain levels then there's entire area's of the game that become completely pointless and/or boring to go to because there's either no challenge whatsoever, or the enemies are far too powerful for you to fight.
And every RPG has systems outside of leveling so it's not "pointless", you're getting new weapons, gear, abilities, etc that make you stronger.
And every RPG has systems outside of leveling so it's not "pointless", you're getting new weapons, gear, abilities, etc that make you stronger.
Levels are fine, but you are correct. If you're going to have scaling, then there's no point in having levels. Just do a skill tree and call it a day.
My opinion is games should have rarer dangerous level scaled enemies sprinkled in when you go back to a zone you're really high above.
User warned: Lazy dev rhetoric
is a very shitty mechanic one of the fun things of any RPG is to feel you are becoming more powerful, unless there is a good explanation it makes no sense that the low level wolves in the starting area are now lvl 99.
It is a lazy dev decision to try to extend the game
It is a lazy dev decision to try to extend the game
There are ways to make level scaling much better than just bigger numbers on the same enemies. Have a narrative explanation for why enemy presence is getting worse over time or as the players gains power. Actually replace the enemies with tougher ones or throw more of them into the mix. Don't apply any scaling uniformly across the board, but rather let the player notice their growth. And most importantly, don't level down enemies so the player can never be outmatched or overwhelmed.
Wait... you can DISABLE level scaling in Assassin's Creed Odyssey?!
If a game has level scaling it may as well just not have levels, and instead just rely solely on equipment, skill trees etc.
No. You want to feel the progression of your character, so it's important that the enemies or monsters that you are defeating at early levels are different than the ones at later levels, generally. It's obviously more difficult if you have nothing but human enemies but nonetheless. I think a game like Ghosts of Tsushima handled this pretty well actually, even though its not strictly speaking an RPG. They had nice enemy progression that added new layers deeper into the game as your character became more powerful. Another game is Elex where it felt like I could tell my character was getting more powerful and I could easily wipe out enemies I struggled with earlier but it also did a pretty good job engaging you with tougher enemies deeper into the game to keep things interesting. Another game that handled this really well was by no surprise the same developer, Gothic 2.
I absolutely hate enemy level scaling.
Every experience I've had with it has been awful, and developers somehow can't even balance this mechanic that they chose to use.
Every experience I've had with it has been awful, and developers somehow can't even balance this mechanic that they chose to use.
Level 1 Kassandra has 1 attack power, taking 10 hits to kill a level 1 Spartan soldier
Level 10 Kassandra has 10 attack power, taking 10 hits to kill a scaled up level 10 Spartan soldier.
In math class they teach us to simplify our equations by removing unnecessary variables and operations.
Seems like what you actually want is:
Kassandra takes 10 hits to kill a Spartan soldier.
Level 10 Kassandra has 10 attack power, taking 10 hits to kill a scaled up level 10 Spartan soldier.
In math class they teach us to simplify our equations by removing unnecessary variables and operations.
Seems like what you actually want is:
Kassandra takes 10 hits to kill a Spartan soldier.
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I'd actually disagree. The great thing about ESO's level scaling is that all content is worth doing no matter when. So you can tackle zones in any order you want and never feel like your just cleaning up a zone by one-shotting all enemies. Not to mention rewards also scale up. Still, if you have a good build then regardless of scaling you will feel strong. Keeps all content "viable".
Guild Wars 2 is interesting because it only does scaling down. You scale down to zones that are sub-80 to whatever the max level of that zone is. This allows players to group up and do events without players completely destroying everything... Although you still will be notable stronger than someone who is normally that level.
Enemy scaling is fine to me as long as the world you're exploring that contains them itself is interesting. I have found many games with scaling enemies to be interesting to explore at my own leisure.
It's not a feature I like so much that I want it to be universal or anything — there is a way to design a game's flow to be satisfying and engaging with non-scaled enemies too... But I don't think I'd like games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 if I had to slog across their rather boring main storylines and couldn't wander them and experience them at the direction of my own desire. The main storylines in those particular two games failed to capture my interest, but I felt that they were overall really fun experiences for me because of the all of the other content and places and events I saw and took part in.
It's not a feature I like so much that I want it to be universal or anything — there is a way to design a game's flow to be satisfying and engaging with non-scaled enemies too... But I don't think I'd like games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 if I had to slog across their rather boring main storylines and couldn't wander them and experience them at the direction of my own desire. The main storylines in those particular two games failed to capture my interest, but I felt that they were overall really fun experiences for me because of the all of the other content and places and events I saw and took part in.
Why even bother with leveling up at all if enemies will scale to match? Just make you unlock abilities instead.
It's just a cheap way to control the game difficulty, and prevent players from overleveling. If you want to be that strict about it, then don't make an RPG...
I like AC Odyssey, but it's so dumb going back to my starting area and seeing level 62 deer that used to be level 1 way back when. You still 1-shot them, it's so silly.
The way Odyssey actually worked was a lot more focused on abilities + gear (with a huge emphasis on gear), being level 20 or level 60 or whatever didn't really mean much other than to lock you out of certain gear or "higher level" areas (aka areas they don't want to you explore yet).
I realise I've just echoed a lot of stuff people are already saying, I just want to say I hate level scaling.
It's just a cheap way to control the game difficulty, and prevent players from overleveling. If you want to be that strict about it, then don't make an RPG...
I like AC Odyssey, but it's so dumb going back to my starting area and seeing level 62 deer that used to be level 1 way back when. You still 1-shot them, it's so silly.
The way Odyssey actually worked was a lot more focused on abilities + gear (with a huge emphasis on gear), being level 20 or level 60 or whatever didn't really mean much other than to lock you out of certain gear or "higher level" areas (aka areas they don't want to you explore yet).
I realise I've just echoed a lot of stuff people are already saying, I just want to say I hate level scaling.
It's better to simply add stronger opponents, IMO.
One of my favorite things about video games is feeling like I'm becoming more powerful. It makes sense for a rival character to continue to grow alongside me, but random mooks? Nah
One of my favorite things about video games is feeling like I'm becoming more powerful. It makes sense for a rival character to continue to grow alongside me, but random mooks? Nah
It usually just feels like a game design / balance cheat. And the fact level-scaling enemies are a hidden mechanic in a genre that was originally designed around grinding to progress can cause problems. I understand why some designers feel compelled to use it, though.
It's not a deal breaker for me by any means of course (I think that if I was put off by every little thing that bad games did, I wouldn't be open to playing very many games).
It's not a deal breaker for me by any means of course (I think that if I was put off by every little thing that bad games did, I wouldn't be open to playing very many games).
Level scaling makes leveling pointless and I hate it. Part of why AC Odyssey wasn't as good as Origins for me.
Yes, when done well. It can serve to guide the player's progression through a world. It's always fun to have an area that's scary and "off limits" - that's going to punch your face in if you go there before you're ready. But then - especially in big open world RPGs, scaling helps to make large sections of the world not feel completely and utterly pointless because you've far surpassed its level and nothing useful can come out of it anymore. I don't need to return to lower areas to pwn the low level enemies. I'd much rather there be a) some challenge and b) some reward worth me being there. I was extremely happy when level scaling was added optionally to AC Origins in a patch.
When done poorly, it ruins the game - see TES Oblivion.
When done poorly, it ruins the game - see TES Oblivion.
To be fair those bandits, who you forgot to kill, could upgrade to better gear by stealing stronger materials from others and learn how to craft, in addition to increase their abilities/combat knowledge/movement on their own (like sane people would do). But if the alternative (and more reasonable in terms of development time and resources) is that they become damage sponges against legendary weapons while still having same poverty gear, then I rather not have level scaling at all.
This is interesting because it fits nicely into a systematic open world overhaul I've been craving for. I don't want meaningless "clear this bandit camp" quests where the bandits sit around doing nothing and aren't actually harming anyone (and then leveling up for no reason and killing an endgame protagonist with a rusty spoon). I want the bandits to dynamically terrorize nearby towns and trade routes and grow in power through that. If done well, that can even lead to discovering them naturally rather than through a quest giver that magically knows their location. It's kinda perfect how well a system like that leads to level scaling. Or it wouldn't really be scaling since they grow in power even if you don't, but the results have all the benefits of level scaling.
No I hate it, what's the point of a level system then. If you go that route you must allow players to become OP, otherwise it's pointless. And being OP is fun, at least for a while. Players who don't want that can just gimp themselves like in the Souls games, where I usually do a normal run first an then many subsequent runs where I just level myself to a certain point or not at all. Alternatively go the Sekiro route, but that requires extremely good gameplay and well thought out skills, and let's be honest, most games don't have that.
Also wow at those poll results, let's hope that some developers get to see this, because that's a very clear result.
Also wow at those poll results, let's hope that some developers get to see this, because that's a very clear result.
This "any sense of progression" is what I'm talking about. This happened in early 2000 and almost never came back since. A lot of level scaling in big AAA RPGs works in zones:
So if you're level 30 in WoW, half of the game will still be a cakewalk, and other parts still be too difficult. It also happens in probably way more games than you are aware of, you just notice the ones that are unbalanced.
On game research conferences I'm one of the bigger critics of DDA because it's often conceptualized as a linear negative feedback loop (and because I think our enjoyment stems more from overcoming a challenge not the challenge itself), but it doesn't have to be of course. Sidequest XP could count less the more you do of them for instance to account for general playthroughs and completionist ones, and I'm always partial to a game like Left4Dead that had a negative feedback DDA loop but a positive feedback reward and juiciness loop.
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If you're on PC, yup. There's a mod that allows you to configure how level scaling works, plus a few other nice settings such as not slowing down your horse when you get into a city. I'm on the phone right now, so quote me again if I don't edit this post with a link in a couple hours.
Edit: Here's the link. You just have to download it, copy to your Odyssey folder and mess with it. Make sure to save a backup copy of your .exe. Anyway, as noted on the description, you can completely disable level scaling, or adjust it to your liking. It doesn't affect mercenaries and civilians, and you items you get from guards will be on the same level as them.
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