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grown in pods
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Let's discuss the common complaint about 13 Sentinels (examples within)
- Thread starter Jaymageck
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People either don't know (haven't played/barely played the game...lots of people in this thread) or have no respect for people who want to play it.
Anyway this is a major twist but just one out of a million other ones.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns around sexual objectification
Wildly unfortunate indeed, but people like to white knight over anything nowadays.
People saying "but there's ACK-SHU-ALLY a legit story excuse for the nakedness" or "Actually, they aren't 16" are completely omitting the fact that this is a fictional piece of media that did not need to involve underage kids who aren't "actually" underage, nor nudity in any of this. It was authored to be that way on purpose and that's pretty much the basis of the issue.
If we're justifying the accessories because that's how they are in the simulation, why stop there. They can just be fully clothed as well.
I thought the whole point of the cockpit views was that was the only real time image of them awake in the real world and not in a simulation prior to the very end.
I thought the whole point of the cockpit views was that was the only real time image of them awake in the real world and not in a simulation prior to the very end.
Because again, foreshadowing. This is not a new concept in the world of fictional stories.
"The game needs to keep Iori and Kisaragi in the doggy style position to preserve it's twist ending."
The nudity isn't the problem. Shows like Evangelion, etc have shown nude minors. The problem with 13 Sentinels isn't the nudity, it's the framing.
This is literally the ProZD video of you trying to explain bad framing as some sort of foreshadowing, when it's not. It's not foreshadowing anything. They could 100% have been wearing clothes in in the Sentinels especially considering
Morimora can wear her clothes in the Sentinel
Is it? Because this seems pretty big and now have an idea of what kind of themes might be tackled so now I've lost some desire to play the game. Shit's gonna be in the back of my mind the whole time and I know it's gonna bother me.
There's nothing nonsensical as I explained why this doesn't need to be internally consistent and even if it was it wouldn't matter
As I recall the images we see of them is based on their internal representation and defined features in the simulation. It's literally the concepts of the Matrix, and previous works, except they stay naked in their pods until the end of the game, rather than escaping like Neo did.
The more general reason is probably that the accessories and hair styles ensure that the player can tell the characters apart easily, but I think the characters being naked is reasonably covered and well within established sci-fi tropes.
I mean i think there is something to be said about the two character portraits that are more suggestive, but otherwise I don't think there is a problem with the "their naked" concept which serves to clue the player into there being more going on than a typical mecha/kaiju story.
Your fake disengenous quote literally has nothing to do with my post. Nobody defending the game here is defending the poses lmao
I haven't played through the game yet (just made it to the Character Select screen yesterday) so I'll keep quiet about how it specifically goes about things until I get a better sense of what it's doing, but the discussion here has made me think a lot about the sexualization of minors while inside the mechs (which was present in the first 10 minutes of the game).
The first thing that came to mind for me was Digimon Tamers, an anime back in 2001 that used a similar concept for their final evolutions -- the main cast (who are all 10 years old) combine with their Digimon and they're all technically nude during the evolution sequence and subsequent dialogue (inside the "cockpit" of their Digimon)...but the biggest thing is that I think that show does a really great job of not sexualizing or fetishizing those kids in any way whatsoever. There's no weird differences between how they depict the male/female characters and overall it felt like a very mature take for a kids show. In my mind, this is a good counter-example of another anime that uses the "naked inside the cockpit" idea for story reasons without using it for fanservice...
The first thing that came to mind for me was Digimon Tamers, an anime back in 2001 that used a similar concept for their final evolutions -- the main cast (who are all 10 years old) combine with their Digimon and they're all technically nude during the evolution sequence and subsequent dialogue (inside the "cockpit" of their Digimon)...but the biggest thing is that I think that show does a really great job of not sexualizing or fetishizing those kids in any way whatsoever. There's no weird differences between how they depict the male/female characters and overall it felt like a very mature take for a kids show. In my mind, this is a good counter-example of another anime that uses the "naked inside the cockpit" idea for story reasons without using it for fanservice...
It's a coming of age story
literally
If this is about
Hiijyama and Okino
I actually think their relationship is kinda fucked up since
Hiijiayma is wrestling with his sexuality while Okino constantly mocks and emotionally abuses him. The part when Okino just probes his mind against his will is genuinely fucked up because it is basically ripping someone struggling to come out kicking and screaming
Tamers and Sailor Moon are also my first time coming across this trope, and again both do it more tastefully than 13 Sentinels. If someone can show me a clip of Rika or any of the Sailor scouts naked and presenting their ass, then you have a point of 13 sentinels being like these shows.
Coming of age story as in going from 16-18? Couldn't have just bumped that up to 18-20? Or hell even anywhere in your early 20s. With proper character development, people can "come of age" at really any age.
And even beyond that, fine, it's a coming of age tale and let's say for the sake of argument that they do need to be 16, just make it a face shot not some creepy backshot.
It's bad, it's creepy, and it's unnecessary. The people saying how it's mild or it's not a big deal compared to other Japanese media are really gross....why is "it's Japan" a defense? If this was a thread criticizing western media would anyone be posting "it's American media, of course its like this, get over it" as some kind of gotcha? Sexualizing minors, even in a mild way, is disgusting and horrible even when done by the Japanese.
If you want to enjoy the game, go ahead, we've all enjoyed problematic media. But the people saying the criticisms aren't true because it's different for Japan should get a ban. What point are you even trying to make? If you think it's okay to sexualize children as long as it's "mild" then you can just say that without dragging the Japanese into it
If you want to enjoy the game, go ahead, we've all enjoyed problematic media. But the people saying the criticisms aren't true because it's different for Japan should get a ban. What point are you even trying to make? If you think it's okay to sexualize children as long as it's "mild" then you can just say that without dragging the Japanese into it
The plot just uses the commonplace "what age are you an adult" in modern terms, then again they also make the characters young enough so they can be in high school and have things happen with that (that said the high school is more of a backdrop than anything...not something like Persona). This is tropey but not really problematic.
I agree with you that they should have just made face shots, which they actually made for 11/13 characters, but they just felt the need to make suggestive poses for 2 particular characters. Why they chose to sexualize these two and ignore even the rest of the female characters as far as the portraits are concerned, I don't know. But that's fair criticism. I don't think people coming in here who barely know anything about the story, not knowing how it develops, saying they could've written this a different way don't seem to understand the entire plot is leading up to a big reveal. And there is nothing wrong with this as a plot point...an issue is people are conflating the portraits with this plot point. The answer isn't to rewrite the game, considering the game doesn't use sex at all in its plot for this, the answer is to make the visuals less tasteless.
Just want to address this, I already addressed the other part of your post. This plot is really flying over your head, and again you're looking at this waaaay too deeply. Morimura
wears the suit in the sentinel because she's not in a growth pod! She's completely separate from this. The other characters who are in growth pod are naked. This is an intended distinction and is proper foreshadowing.
See my post above. They needed to adjust the visuals. Stop trying to conflate the plot which doesn't sexualize these characters at all with the visuals. Ask them to adjust the visuals, not to try to find "flaws" in the plot.
First off, I just want to apologize to the rest of ya for using rape to describe an action taken by a publisher toward an IP. It was a very poor choice of words to use but i didn't think twice about it at the time. Not my intention to make light of that sort of derilection, so I really do apologize for that if anyone read my post in the other topic.
Feel like I need to preface that before I reiterate my views on 13 Sentinels, because OP was very well laid out for a reasonable discussion.
I'm going to start with the most benign argument IMO - the focal adult character and her portrayal. Is it necessary to use the angles they chose to? Absolutely not. It's overt sexualization. And I should probably be more deterred by that however, knowing her story and her depicted, intended age / appeal, I don't mind. At all, really. That might make me a deviant but I can't deny admiring asses from time to time. Why not? They're useful. They're nice. But time and place, and tone... Can't say much on the topside because I'm just really noticing how defined that area is now. Maybe it's just that her singular character is too contrasting to the rest of the designs the most of the time. If she were in, like a Metal Gear title, I'd assume she was a conservatively designed character TBH. If that makes sense at all. And that's a series ripe with questionable female objectification for the sake of. I can't say that in 13 Sentinels case, save for the next bullet
The reason given for the "18" year olds who seemingly all look about 15 is dumb. I can understand how they tried to make sense of it, but it's dumb. And the art doesn't match the tone of the rest of the game in those instances. That's what makes me feel less comfortable with those scenes.
And finally, panty shots. They are dumb. Always. Should be thrown in the time capsule with those gross close up, detailed shots cartoons like Ren & Stimpy used to pull of feet and butts.
Feel like I need to preface that before I reiterate my views on 13 Sentinels, because OP was very well laid out for a reasonable discussion.
I'm going to start with the most benign argument IMO - the focal adult character and her portrayal. Is it necessary to use the angles they chose to? Absolutely not. It's overt sexualization. And I should probably be more deterred by that however, knowing her story and her depicted, intended age / appeal, I don't mind. At all, really. That might make me a deviant but I can't deny admiring asses from time to time. Why not? They're useful. They're nice. But time and place, and tone... Can't say much on the topside because I'm just really noticing how defined that area is now. Maybe it's just that her singular character is too contrasting to the rest of the designs the most of the time. If she were in, like a Metal Gear title, I'd assume she was a conservatively designed character TBH. If that makes sense at all. And that's a series ripe with questionable female objectification for the sake of. I can't say that in 13 Sentinels case, save for the next bullet
The reason given for the "18" year olds who seemingly all look about 15 is dumb. I can understand how they tried to make sense of it, but it's dumb. And the art doesn't match the tone of the rest of the game in those instances. That's what makes me feel less comfortable with those scenes.
And finally, panty shots. They are dumb. Always. Should be thrown in the time capsule with those gross close up, detailed shots cartoons like Ren & Stimpy used to pull of feet and butts.
I know Morimora isn't in the pod because she is another version of Iori who went to zero and didn't reset after the Kaiju wiped out the loop she was from
But the point stands that the use of nudity is nonsensical because of the framing. I have said multiple times in this thread "nudity in some ethereal plain" is a trope that is constantly used in Japanese fiction. We have discussed uses of it where it is fine like Evangelion, Digimon Tamers, Sailor Moon etc.
But 13 Sentinels is not that, it has 2 characters literally in the doggy style position. The thing you responded to me saying "is a made up quote" and then continue to go on and on saying "the plot doesn't sexualize them". Yeah, no shit the plot isn't sexualizing them. I can read the plot summary of the game on wikipedia and go "yeah, the plot isn't sexualizing them"
No one was talking about the plot, they were talking about how the game frames the plot. Which is 100% in Vanillawares control. How they choose to convey information. They chose to pose Kisaragi and Iori like that. They could have done it tastefully, like with Ryoko but for some reason Kisaragi and Iori are presented like that.
And when people raise those concerns, it gets hand waived by "but the plot though" and then people ask "well why does the plot demand this" because of the framing of these plot elements. Because of the games bad framing, the plot gets scrutinized because people are now asking "why did the plot demand for 2 of the underage female characters naked in the doggy style position"?
My argument about the plot isn't about the nudity framing, it's about people saying "well they could've changed the plot this way or that way, see [inconsistency which isn't really an inconsistency]!" like you and others have done here which is just a bad read of the plot or misunderstanding why they kept certain visual elements even though it appears inconsistent on the surface (but as I've said twice I doubt they would change the plot even if they made the visuals more consistent).
The other thing is people saying no form of nudity is justifiable in the plot because it involves minors. That's bullshit because if you've played this game this is fine and makes sense for plot reasons, yes the two sexy portraits are unneeded but people are making broad statements with no understanding of where the plot goes or how the plot itself handles this just fine - despite the visual elements bringing things down.
No? Literally not a single person posted in this thread with that in mind. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post as this comes across as a post done in bad faith.
Oh god this.
It's like people can't enjoy something and acknowledge it has flaws. As an example I love Persona 5 but for the love of god it has issues in the way it treats women and the LQBTQ community I wish weren't there and wouldn't diminish the game even slightly to remove them and would only be more welcoming to a larger community of people.
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wait, is this a well known mindset online? people don't generally like something but have issues with certain aspects, features, facets, whatever?
That's actually amazing. Like, I can't remember the last thing I liked so much I'd die on any hill for, of any height. Maybe instapot but even that sucker is an eyesore.
I started playing the game recently and I feel as though the sexualization of many of the characters is an active detriment to my enjoyment of it. It wasn't exactly a great first impression for me when, within the first *ten minutes* of the game, there's a high school girl going "w-where are my clothes?!"
Just miss me with that shit.
I'm about 8 hours in now and they've slowed down on it a bit, but every time it comes up it's a grim reminder of why I don't tend to enjoy this sort of thing. It's weird too becauss I actually really loved AI: The Somnium Files, which has a very pervy protagonist but is held up a lot more by other aspects of the game.
We'll see how I feel by the time I finish the game, there have been moments of really gripping story but so far I don't really get the hype.
Just miss me with that shit.
I'm about 8 hours in now and they've slowed down on it a bit, but every time it comes up it's a grim reminder of why I don't tend to enjoy this sort of thing. It's weird too becauss I actually really loved AI: The Somnium Files, which has a very pervy protagonist but is held up a lot more by other aspects of the game.
We'll see how I feel by the time I finish the game, there have been moments of really gripping story but so far I don't really get the hype.
It's not like it slows down, it's more like these elements are a very small part of the game, and yet, any discussion around the game is doomed to die down, unless it revolves around that stuff. Like, I can certainly understand why some stuff rubs people the wrong way, and I think it's good for people to be aware of what they'll play before they do, but they should also know that the game isn't some sort of pornodiastrophic japanese monstrosity. Honestly, even the nurse, it mostly feels like an artistic exaggeration rather than something to appeal.
I always enjoy the "plot reason" excuse. It's sexual objectification of women and women designed to look like underage girls, period, end of story.
Guys, forget the whole 16 - 18 age stuff or the plot reason. These can be done tastefully and arguing about them isn't doing good.
The issue is as mentioned in the OP, the sexualized art work of Hiragi and Fuyusaka. If those artworks weren't like this then there wouldn't have been any issue. Nudity isn't a bad thing as long as it is portrayed in a non sexual way.
The nurse's design is also a mess there is no ifs and buts about it.
I really like the game but I am not sure why we are arguing about this. All we can do is spread warnings about these issues and people can see for themselves if they are OK or not.
At the end of the day, who ever decided to add these types of things to the game really shot themselves in the foot.
The issue is as mentioned in the OP, the sexualized art work of Hiragi and Fuyusaka. If those artworks weren't like this then there wouldn't have been any issue. Nudity isn't a bad thing as long as it is portrayed in a non sexual way.
The nurse's design is also a mess there is no ifs and buts about it.
I really like the game but I am not sure why we are arguing about this. All we can do is spread warnings about these issues and people can see for themselves if they are OK or not.
At the end of the day, who ever decided to add these types of things to the game really shot themselves in the foot.
I hope you're not taking Evangelion as a good exemple because it's a thousand times worse than 13 sentinels from what I read.
Yeah I've been playing more of the game the past several days (still only at 30% story completion) and the best I can say is it's better in this regard than other Vanillaware games. It still has obnoxious, gratuitous sexualization that almost exclusively targets its female characters. I kind of knew what I was getting into when Fuyusaka asks what happened to her clothes in the first minute of the game.
I find it hard to defend this crap, so I won't. The game would be better without Morimura's exaggerated proportions or catsuit. It would be better without the couple of leering cockpit shots showing teenage girls' bare backs. It would be better if the girls had their nanomachine control pods implanted on their wrists or forearms like the boys do. There's no "but" coming in this post. The game would just be better without this stuff.
I find it hard to defend this crap, so I won't. The game would be better without Morimura's exaggerated proportions or catsuit. It would be better without the couple of leering cockpit shots showing teenage girls' bare backs. It would be better if the girls had their nanomachine control pods implanted on their wrists or forearms like the boys do. There's no "but" coming in this post. The game would just be better without this stuff.
Please come on.
You tell me you've never seen someone be born completely naked but with a hella well done pompadour and glasses? This is common sense your first glasses are always made inside the womb! /s
One thing that these types of discussions really lay out is that a lot of fans of stuff really just can't take any criticism of something they really enjoy. Even stuff like this that you would think would be obvious to anyone, it's like people just cannot process that or something. I mean, most of the discussion around this game has been glowingly positive, with at least one user going around every GOTY thread going, 'Where is 13 Sentinels? Where is 13 Sentinels?" and like a dozen posters quoting him to agree. But this one thread about a pretty glaring and obvious flaw is too much lol. It's a shame, but that's just how it is by and large here.
I don't like Evangelion that much but at least there is acknowledgement from it the sexualization is fucked up.
Fully agree with you.
As I said before, this game is a really good game but those flaws mentioned in the OP are flaws. If we could fix those flaws or at least prevent them from happening again everybody wins. But like you say, people take criticism on their favourite games as attacks for some reason I can't understand.
I have said this in other threads but I'll keep saying it.
I don't have a problem with the nudity, I have a problem with how the female characters are framed versus the male ones. The screenshot used in the OP crops some of the female images when the full image in the game shows off her ass. None of the male characters are framed that way. Not to mention the sultry "over the shoulder" look many of them are giving whereas basically all the male characters look determined and serious. Look I like anime bullshit, you can use my icon as proof, but the way it's done in 13S and the way people try to make it just about the nudity is very frustrating to me.
I don't have a problem with the nudity, I have a problem with how the female characters are framed versus the male ones. The screenshot used in the OP crops some of the female images when the full image in the game shows off her ass. None of the male characters are framed that way. Not to mention the sultry "over the shoulder" look many of them are giving whereas basically all the male characters look determined and serious. Look I like anime bullshit, you can use my icon as proof, but the way it's done in 13S and the way people try to make it just about the nudity is very frustrating to me.
While it is a big twist, there are plenty of other WTF twists.
Like this twist is the biggest one of them all but you figure out there is something shady going on way before it happens. You just wonder how it will happen.
Still worth playing and it sucks you were spoiled on it but I wouldn't say the whole thing is ruined.
George Kamitani is a fucked up person. In case y'all forgot, there's a boss fight in Odin Sphere against the Queen of the Dead, and she spends the entire boss fight playing with one of her own tits.
Oh, and did I mention she doesn't actually have a torso? She's a head, a pair of tits and some arms attached to a bony spinal column and that's it.
Shit like this is why Vanillaware does not ever deserve the benefit of the doubt.
I can't believe I never noticed this
I'd say yes, but that's a question the game itself is asking. It's answer is in the finale and it's what makes the game work for me.
If you think them being in a pod negates the experiences that shaped them, the only thing that's ever been real to them, then probably not. But if you treat that world as just as real despite knowing the context, then absolutely yes. It doesn't play the game off as just a dream or inconsequential. The world you play in is still very much their world. And if you want to learn the motivations and very different factions trying to do what they thought was right leading to this mess: Yes.
This is not true. To the extent that I bought this game because of positive word of mouth on this forum and I'd never heard about these issues until this thread.
I've personally not got a problem with the game but can appreciate the concerns raised. We get to find out about the naked mech reasons later but characters like Chihiro Morimura could have been toned down a bit, especially with the jiggle physics.
I do think the story, gameplay and characters do outshine the negatives, especially with all the positive word of mouth.
I do think the story, gameplay and characters do outshine the negatives, especially with all the positive word of mouth.
This games gimmick is it will throw giant no context spoilers at you regarding other characters before you've even played their chapters in some cases. It constantly recontextualizes itself
The two pervy angles in the nude shots should have been changed to be like the other 11 characters that were fine, because if all 13 were like that there'd be no issue at all, and the plot reason justifies it.
The other stuff like the panty shots the game could do without, but it's such a tiny part of the game that it isn't a major detraction in any way.
The other stuff like the panty shots the game could do without, but it's such a tiny part of the game that it isn't a major detraction in any way.
I'd avoided this game even though I'd seen it being praised highly for elements, but I kept hearing it was rife with sexualisation of minors, and general fuckery.
I'm actually shocked at how "tame" the elements presented in the OP are. By all means, they're unnecessary, and I'd prefer without, but it is no where near what I'd anticipated based on what I'd heard.
I'm going to play the game when I can, and hopefully it isn't any worse than the OP
I'm actually shocked at how "tame" the elements presented in the OP are. By all means, they're unnecessary, and I'd prefer without, but it is no where near what I'd anticipated based on what I'd heard.
I'm going to play the game when I can, and hopefully it isn't any worse than the OP
Vague and gender neutral enough of a term so no one can predict what someone means by it đź‘€
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