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Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
User banned (2 weeks): Inflammatory generalization of entire country
It's absolutely inexcusable that basically every single japanese anime game has had these same problems. It's gross and a sign of deep rooted cultural problems within Japan. While the story might be good, is games with this shitty service stopped selling, Japan might be forced to clean up it's act with anime games. OP you are conditioned to it, this stuff is so off-putting, it's why many of us don't like anime.
 

coldsagging

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,859
Literally one of *the* best selling titles they've ever made, hundred+ thousands of copies, far exceeding all projections and expectations. It didn't shoo anyone away, you're falling for the broad strokes arguments that do nothing but a disservice to this game.
It pushed me away for a start, and plenty of other people in this very thread. Fair enough it sold well relatively speaking, but I think it could have sold even more if they didn't needlessly create this issue for themselves.

By all accounts there's a lot to admire about the game, I was excited reading all the praise around here...until I heard about things that's in the OP, and its off-putting, and its a shame because its completely unnecessary and as I said, undermines a lot of positives.
 

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,106
Washington, D.C.
Things on the OP are bad, but if these are the only questionable things in the game I think vanillaware is improving then. Let's hope their next game is flawless.
In a way, I agree on this. it isn't near as blatant as some of their previous games. I hope they continue to improve to the point where they remove it completely in the future, because I like their games, but I'm not going to excuse any of this bullshit from them.
 

bombermouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
In a way, I agree on this. it isn't near as blatant as some of their previous games. I hope they continue to improve to the point where they remove it completely in the future, because I like their games, but I'm not going to excuse any of this bullshit from them.

Yeah, it's inexcusable and should be criticized. Dragon's Crown though oof, at least in that game characters where adults.

The stuff in the op is so weird it feels like bait to sell merchandise, that adult woman is not even sexy, it's ridic. It's like selvaria in Valkyria Chronicles. I hope companies would stop doing shit like that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
Like I'm totally willing to critique the game, but I have no idea why people have to lump in "they're catering to a horny otaku base" with this premise that nudity can actually serve a purpose, and that the problematic element of the game isn't that there's 16 year olds in the nude, but that they've sexualized the visual component. When people come in and say "well they don't have to be nude" that isn't a worthwhile critique because not only was it the artists intent to have and use that nudity in a meaningful metaphor for one of the games central themes, but is also justified by the plot itself as a logical component.

Saying that the portraits uncomfortably sexualize women is a great critique, saying that the activators are in unnecessarily gendered locations is great, talking about how the narrative itself can go male gazey with a couple of the offhand remarks Ogata makes that sexualizes women is a point I've mentioned before, etc. I think it's great to engage in what's problematic, and have in myself tried to do a "mega post" containing the most severe cases of problematic elements the game has so others could be aware (including what I consider the less well done parts of the LGBTQ aspect).

What I loved most about the game was the narrative. I think the narrative is better for having them nude because it makes sense and has a meaningful metaphor. I think the videogame as a whole is worse for sexualizing women and children, and could have been better. That's what it means to like something but be willing to engage with its core problems. If the cockpits would have been merely headshots (and yes, not had their hair/face accessories), I think it would have been a better game. They still would have been nude though.

Played through the game earlier this year. I think I largely agree with this post.

The game is good and less gratuitous than previous Vanillaware titles but still worth criticizing. There are some pretty jarring elements and underage girls especially shouldn't be sexualized. Even if the instances of them being sexualized is within few discrete panels, it's still weird enough to warrant discussion. Also, seeing Morimura in game makes me feel like someone is trying to pander to me and it just feels condescending.
Is part of this to push figure sales? I went to see if you could get figures for the male characters but it seems to only be two of the girls, at least so far.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
My thoughts 100%. All they had to do was make them just face portraits and call it a day. Or at the very least put the women in the same non sexualized poses like the men.

It's funny how two characters (girls obviously) have their portrait camera behind them, like the pod was made that way, and it's like totally normal lol It feels like they're getting pranked.
 

ngower

Member
Nov 20, 2017
4,001
Without spoiling, can someone tell me how common the fan service stuff is? Is it something I'm gonna encounter regularly? Are depictions of women in general gross like the huge breasts in the OP? Or is it just here and there and can be overlooked in the long run?

Like, I pretty much expect at least one eye roll if I'm watching anime, and it's why I tend to gravitate towards some of the more wholesome shows (even then they always have at least one quirk) but if this game is chock full of garbage I will just return it.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,996
Without spoiling, can someone tell me how common the fan service stuff is? Is it something I'm gonna encounter regularly? Are depictions of women in general gross like the huge breasts in the OP? Or is it just here and there and can be overlooked in the long run?

Like, I pretty much expect at least one eye roll if I'm watching anime, and it's why I tend to gravitate towards some of the more wholesome shows (even then they always have at least one quirk) but if this game is chock full of garbage I will just return it.
What is listed in the OP is essentially the entirety of what is present.
 

CHC

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,246
The art is very gross to me, it's one of the reasons I'll probably never play the game. Just icky and kind of amateurish looking.
 

maouvin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Blumenau - Brazil
The girl with the booty shorts is on the cover though, I imagine she's in it the entire game dressed like that?

Most of the time, yes. Her scenes usually start with her just finishing her track club activities, and sometimes she doesn't change back into her uniform.

I'd say it's the most frequent of the things OP listed (and she's only one of the playable characters), teacher coming second. Pilot portraits appear briefly during battles, and the rest like... twice.
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
They have pigtails and glasses:


The girls are naked: well of course it doesn't make sense to cover them like they were just in a pod and they were just born! how are they supposed to have any clothing.
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,986
So all the girls have their mech activation tattoos on their thighs or lower back or something? None have it like on their hands or arms?
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,416
So all the girls have their mech activation tattoos on their thighs or lower back or something? None have it like on their hands or arms?
I mean this is a legitimately dumb thing that I think would be equatable to the Quiet stuff since while the game does show why each character's activation tattoo is where they are, the fact that all the female characters have them in those types of positions and none of the men do make it pretty obvious that they started with where they go and then looked for ways to justify the positions afterward
 

maouvin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Blumenau - Brazil
So all the girls have their mech activation tattoos on their thighs or lower back or something? None have it like on their hands or arms?

Face, knee, chest, thigh, lower back, waist. Here's everyone:

maxresdefault.jpg

Some of those I saw only once in the entire game. Which still make the location dumb, but also very minor next to the other stuff.

Edit: spoiler tagged
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
honestly theres no point making defenses for this shit

it should be fought so we can enjoy different perspectives and stories without having to shield our eyes or justify "well, they only sexualized kids for a short amount of time"
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
They have pigtails and glasses:


The girls are naked: well of course it doesn't make sense to cover them like they were just in a pod and they were just born! how are they supposed to have any clothing.

It's even more nonsensical with the whole "they were grown in pods! of course they are naked" when you are telling me Ogata just grew into having a perfectly coifed pompadour?
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Haven't played the game, seen a lot of criticism, and from pictures seen here.. What does this game do worse than Bayonetta for example? Or some fighting game female characters ?
I usually dislike these over sexualized female characters, feels unnecessary and also out of context, but this is also very usual on anime/manga, so i guess I've got used to it and i just ignore them most of the time.
 

Deleted member 52442

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 24, 2019
10,774
Haven't played the game, seen a lot of criticism, and from pictures seen here.. What does this game do worse than Bayonetta for example? Or some fighting game female characters ?
I usually dislike these over sexualized female characters, feels unnecessary and also out of context, but this is also very usual on anime/manga, so i guess I've got used to it and i just ignore them most of the time.

bayonette is a grown ass woman who is (according to the wiki) 500 years old

when i checked out 13 sentinels the first thing i saw was a girl lift up her skirt to activate her glowing tattoo, then she was later stated to be a first year in high school
 

Radarscope1

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,697
It's weird to me that horny T&A pics are called "fan service" on the web now. I always think of that term referring to Easter eggs, subtle nods and fun call backs for hardcore fans of an IP or series. The stuff shown in the OP is mostly just horny bullshit.

That said I appreciate this thread because I'd like to play through this game with my wife as she likes sci-fi and some Japanese media but I don't want to have to roll through a bunch of this nonsense while we play. This looks pretty minor all things considered.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
Haven't played the game, seen a lot of criticism, and from pictures seen here.. What does this game do worse than Bayonetta for example? Or some fighting game female characters ?
I usually dislike these over sexualized female characters, feels unnecessary and also out of context, but this is also very usual on anime/manga, so i guess I've got used to it and i just ignore them most of the time.

I'd argue worse since this is the sexualization of minors. Appearing naked in some ethereal realm is a trope used a lot in anime (evangelion, dbz, etc) but at least those don't decide to have 2 of the kids in the doggy style position.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
25,946
The girl with the booty shorts is on the cover though, I imagine she's in it the entire game dressed like that?

I mean, it's kind of silly she stays in those clothes the whole time and I can see the argument how it can be sexualization to keep it that way (and that most likely is the case why), but those are very common shorts for gym wear in Japanese schools, not 'booty shorts' lol


Haven't played the game, seen a lot of criticism, and from pictures seen here.. What does this game do worse than Bayonetta for example? Or some fighting game female characters ?
I usually dislike these over sexualized female characters, feels unnecessary and also out of context, but this is also very usual on anime/manga, so i guess I've got used to it and i just ignore them most of the time.

Well, here's a question for you: what does that have to do with anything that's being talked about? This thread is about 13 Sentinels, not Bayonetta or random fighting games.
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,986
I mean this is a legitimately dumb thing that I think would be equatable to the Quiet stuff since while the game does show why each character's activation tattoo is where they are, the fact that all the female characters have them in those types of positions and none of the men do make it pretty obvious that they started with where they go and then looked for ways to justify the positions afterward
Face, knee, chest, thigh, lower back, waist. Here's everyone:

maxresdefault.jpg

Some of those I saw only once in the entire game. Which still make the location dumb, but also very minor next to the other stuff.

Edit: spoiler tagged
Yeah this is tame but it's obvious what they were doing. I think ultimately the teacher's design bothers me the most. It's so unbelievably fucking stupid to look at, and I imagine you see more of her than you see any of this stuff. Also, idk if that
"they were just born in pods"
stuff is spoilers or not but it sounds kinda dumb.
 
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LuckyLocke

Avenger
Nov 27, 2017
861
All of this is so bad. It's shit and it shouldn't exist. All of you who says its "mild" and that you don't see any full nudity are missing the point big time. These are tease shots, plain and simple. I bet I wouldn't have to go very far to find fan art with full nudity for these characters. That's exactly what this lead to, grown ass men lusting over underage teen animes.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
25,946
Yeah this is tame but it's obvious what they were doing. I think ultimately the teacher's design bothers me the most. It's so unbelievably fucking stupid to look at, and I imagine you see more of her than you see any of this stuff.

Yeah, it's pretty massive Spoilers, so you may want to black that out lol.

You see quite a lot of the teacher as the story goes on, but thankfully she's not like a constant character and you do go decent stretches where she isn't present or only has minimal screen time
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,971
I'm gonna skip this game on principle. I don't care if it's 1% of the game. I care that this shit just keep on being a thing and keeps on being excused.

And I can't believe people are still citing story excuses after the whole "she breathes through her skin" debacle.
 

Pelicano

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
865
All of this is so bad. It's shit and it shouldn't exist. All of you who says its "mild" and that you don't see any full nudity are missing the point big time. These are tease shots, plain and simple. I bet I wouldn't have to go very far to find fan art with full nudity for these characters. That's exactly what this lead to, grown ass men lusting over underage teen animes.
Buddy, they could be clothed in fluffy one piece outfits and there would still be porn about it. Be real with yourself, the people lusting would do so either way.
 

Ketch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,285
I am totally agreed that there's no legitimate reason for it. There is a story 'excuse' for nakedness, but even that didn't require showing the nakedness, at least not as much as it shows.

Do you think having some gross content is inexcusable, regardless of anything else a game does? Should we boycott any media that has content like this? In which case, would you call playing the game and enjoying it morally unacceptable? I'm not trying to be defensive, I'm genuinely wondering the answer to this question.

I personally was not grossed out enough for it to be detrimental to my enjoyment, but I blame years of desensitization for that. I didn't "choose" my reaction, so I don't think it's bad in itself that it didn't bother me. But I am able to take a step back and ask myself - is it bad if I recommend the game to people? I think based on your post, the answer is yes, but I'm undecided.

I used a lot of curse words in my last post which probably makes it sound like I'm more emotional then I am about this. But, I just wanted to be clear on my stance.

In response to your post, I don't think it needs to be boycotted or even that playing and enjoying the game is morally unacceptable... You don't get to control how you feel about the game, you can control how you act based on the feeling... Just like I don't have to use a bunch of f-bombs in my response. Play and enjoy whatever games you want.

The problem that I personally have with digusting shit like this in a video game, or any fictional media, is that some people wrote this shit. It's a fictional story, it's not true, they can write whatever justification, they can draw whatever 'art' they choose to. This is a story about kids that have to get naked, with drawings depicting such... fuck that gross ass shit. Even if it's not depicted in graphic detail it's TOTALLY unnecessary. Make them older, make the justification require them to wear special suits. It's FICTION. The author chose to write it this way, which means they chose to write a story about naked kids... and that's fucking gross. If that's the story they HAVE to tell, then they need to get some help and that shouldn't be celebrated. It's the same thing with the 1,000 year old dragon trope (and I HATE making this comparison because people will focus on it, and it'll detract from the point), you can make a cool story about an ancient dragon that transforms and lives as a human, that's cool. But they don't need to draw them as a sexualized child in a bikini, that's fucked up and disgusting, just DON'T do that shit okay?

The bottom line is that the authors go out of their way to sexualize children and women, so whatever 'greatest story in video games' comes along with it is fuckin rotten by association because those same authors want you to enjoy this pervy shit. They want that. They want you to look at and think about naked kids. If they didn't want that they wouldn't put it in the game. It's fucked up.

why buy a coke and then complain about the sugar? Just dont buy the coke.

100% this. Except in this case the 'sugar' is naked kids.... and I personally can't get down with 'it's only a little bit of naked kids', or 'the naked kids are barely naked'.

I'm out, I don't need that shit. at all.
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,986
Yeah, it's pretty massive Spoilers, so you may want to black that out lol.

You see quite a lot of the teacher as the story goes on, but thankfully she's not like a constant character and you do go decent stretches where she isn't present or only has minimal screen time
Wtf it is? People have been throwing it out without tagging it so I didn't think it actually was. That's annoying. I was still gonna play it.
 

Pelicano

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
865
And these kind of games are trying to profit off of that. How is this even acceptable? lol.
Most hentai is third party and completely unaffiliated to the source material. This game is not trying to profit off of provocative material at all. Just has mildly suggestive stuff, because Japan, and an incredible story.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
25,946
Wtf it is? People have been throwing it out without tagging it so I didn't think it actually was. That's annoying. I was still gonna play it.

Oh really, I haven't noticed lol. When I mentioned it I did in spoilers. Without context, it doesn't really mean anything to you, though, so it's no big probably
 

sku

Member
Feb 11, 2018
782
Haven't played the game, but if it's actually underage characters then that's just gross and wrong.

In general, as a woman, I don't have a problem with sexualized female characters, but I do have a problem with the fact that female characters are predominantly sexualized. There should be more variety, and ideally character designs should be in the service of some greater aspect of the game. In the case of this game, it sounds from others like they are actively distracting people from the narrative, so these character designs are working against the game.
 

LuckyLocke

Avenger
Nov 27, 2017
861
Most hentai is third party and completely unaffiliated to the source material. This game is not trying to profit off of provocative material at all. Just has mildly suggestive stuff, because Japan, and an incredible story.
So this game has mildly suggestive stuff (not provocative), but is not trying to profit from it. Gotcha.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
Yeah this is tame but it's obvious what they were doing. I think ultimately the teacher's design bothers me the most. It's so unbelievably fucking stupid to look at, and I imagine you see more of her than you see any of this stuff. Also, idk if that "they were just born in pods" stuff is spoilers or not but it sounds kinda dumb.

The teacher is even dumber because she always presents her ass to the screen and whenever she moves around you hear the creaking of latex. It's hilarious.

A lot of people point to Dragon's Crown as "the one" from Vanillaware but DC doesn't bother me as much as 13 Sentinels because there is no narrative and I will rather take "I just wanted to see titties" over a narrative that bends over backwards to try and justify why a character is wearing what they are wearing.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
25,946
The teacher is even dumber because she always presents her ass to the screen and whenever she moves around you hear the creaking of latex. It's hilarious.

A lot of people point to Dragon's Crown as "the one" from Vanillaware but DC doesn't bother me as much as 13 Sentinels because there is no narrative and I will rather take "I just wanted to see titties" over a narrative that bends over backwards to try and justify why a character is wearing what they are wearing.

The thing is that 13 Sentinels never even tries to narratively justify why she dresses like that lol. They do for why the kids are naked, but they never explain her catsuit at all, at least not that I recall unless it's something tucked away in the mystery files
 

Yasumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,566
I'm honestly kind of bummed by the amount of people that seem to think this is some horrible, valueless degenerate hentai, when this is a T-rated game and the level of nudity is comparable to an episode of Sailor Moon.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,538
The thing is that 13 Sentinels never even tries to narratively justify why she dresses like that lol. They do for why the kids are naked, but they never explain her catsuit at all, at least not that I recall unless it's something tucked away in the mystery files

They do not explain it at all. It is most likely the Dragons Crown explanation of "Vanillaware are just really horny", which I really don't have a problem with in games with lacking or no narrative like Dragons Crown. But in 13 Sentinels which is a narrative heavy game, I literally can't with Morimora basically going "man, I am so depressed" as she presents her latex encased ass to the camera.
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,884
It's even more nonsensical with the whole "they were grown in pods! of course they are naked" when you are telling me Ogata just grew into having a perfectly coifed pompadour?

This isn't really a gotcha. They're still naked because the game wants the player to ask what's the point of that (aka foreshadowing), which is explained at the end, but they still kept character identifying features like the pomp, glasses, bandages. This is all moot anyway because *endgame spoilers*
that's just how they look in the simulation. The game never shows anyone except Juro and Megumi at the end coming out of their pods. We don't know if these other characters came out with their pomp or accessories or whatever.

You guys are putting way too much thought into this. Even if they made this more internally consistent, which I don't know why it matters, do you think they would rewrite this twist so they're not naked? I'm going to guess no.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
I mean, it's kind of silly she stays in those clothes the whole time and I can see the argument how it can be sexualization to keep it that way (and that most likely is the case why), but those are very common shorts for gym wear in Japanese schools, not 'booty shorts' lol




Well, here's a question for you: what does that have to do with anything that's being talked about? This thread is about 13 Sentinels, not Bayonetta or random fighting games.
That is what i ask, because seeing the pictures provided, haven't played the game myself, i think there are games that do worse on a relatively constant basis. The only thing i would say this game does worse than Bayonetta and fighting games, and not always, from what I've read here, is apparently characters looking under their age on purpose. Which is obviously worse if done on purpose
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,833
It's unfortunate the complaint is so oversized, appearing in every single discussion of the game here, especially for something that is so mild in comparison to the existing canon like Evangelion.

13 Sentinels remains a game that is extremely well-constructed, doesn't wallow in the kind of endemic violence appearing in video games and doesn't present another bury your gay narrative out of its LGBT themes. It also presents sweet and well-written relationships that are among people of the same age instead of featuring questionable age gaps. It is an infinitely more accessible games than most Japanese games out there and I'd still recommend it ten times over any adventure games existing even if we only base it off its "sexual content". I'd recommend it over Danganronpa and Zero Escape easily. Even Ace Attorney.
 

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,106
Washington, D.C.
I'm actually curious what you think about the game because I think you said it was the worst thing you played this year but you're enjoying it per another post in this thread. Did you just play mostly all good games this year? Haha.
Actually, yeah, it's been a very good year for me for games:

Hades
The Last of Us Part II
Judgment
Final Fantasy VII Remake
Ghost of Tsushima
Doom Eternal
Miles Morales
Demon's Souls
Sackboy
Astro's Playroom
Bugsnax
Immortals: Fenyx Rising (this was the other one I was going to put as the worst of the year)
 
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