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Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,782
I don't get it why do they need to be naked? What would having them clothed vs naked convey in this case? If you have the technology to have people reborn in pods, you don't have the technology to have them clothed?
I've said this twice in the thread already, what's wrong with my answer?

I said this earlier but it's pretty basic. Kamitani said he started with the last scene first, with them waking up from the pods to explore a new world. It parallels a new birth of the human race on this new planet, and it adds to the newness of them experiencing real life for the first time ever. In a game laden with and utilizing sci-fi tropes it's also obviously paying homage to the Matrix.

As to the big boobs, I guess I just don't remember that but sure, a lot of the topic already covers that the art is more provocative and problematic than the intent.

They didn't find a justification for nudity, nudity can actually just be a part of any art. It's okay to seperate the plot element of nudity from the actual visual design when you talk about this stuff. Like there's really nothing wrong with the fact they're nude, that doesn't need to be "justified". What would need to be "justified" is why some of the characters seem to be particularly sexualized and for me I'm not going to do that besides saying it's obviously to pander to an audience that I'd rather just not exist.

So few critics of 13 Sentinels seem willing to budge from the fact that actually yes, the nudity might be critical to what they wanted to create in a non-sexual way, but problematic elements exist in the visual elements.

Like I'm totally willing to critique the game, but I have no idea why people have to lump in "they're catering to a horny otaku base" with this premise that nudity can actually serve a purpose, and that the problematic element of the game isn't that there's 16 year olds in the nude, but that they've sexualized the visual component. When people come in and say "well they don't have to be nude" that isn't a worthwhile critique because not only was it the artists intent to have and use that nudity in a meaningful metaphor for one of the games central themes, but is also justified by the plot itself as a logical component.

Saying that the portraits uncomfortably sexualize women is a great critique, saying that the activators are in unnecessarily gendered locations is great, talking about how the narrative itself can go male gazey with a couple of the offhand remarks Ogata makes that sexualizes women is a point I've mentioned before, etc. I think it's great to engage in what's problematic, and have in myself tried to do a "mega post" containing the most severe cases of problematic elements the game has so others could be aware (including what I consider the less well done parts of the LGBTQ aspect).

What I loved most about the game was the narrative. I think the narrative is better for having them nude because it makes sense and has a meaningful metaphor. I think the videogame as a whole is worse for sexualizing women and children, and could have been better. That's what it means to like something but be willing to engage with its core problems. If the cockpits would have been merely headshots (and yes, not had their hair/face accessories), I think it would have been a better game. They still would have been nude though.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,164
Canada
What I loved most about the game was the narrative. I think the narrative is better for having them nude because it makes sense and has a meaningful metaphor. I think the videogame as a whole is worse for sexualizing women and children, and could have been better. That's what it means to like something but be willing to engage with its core problems. If the cockpits would have been merely headshots (and yes, not had their hair/face accessories), I think it would have been a better game. They still would have been nude though.

Well said.
 

LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,273
Just gonna paste this great post from the other thread. Cant remember who had it because it was a few weeks ago.

I get not wanting to interact with something seen as pervy. But I could easily describe this as a game with panty shots, horny teens, busty boob jiggling characters, skintight clothing, and nude children and while every bit of that is true and so easy to criticize, it also describes an absolutely miniscule amount of content in a large game that explores human relationships, lgbtq characters, our relationship with media and culture and defining characteristics of what it means to be human, both individually and as a race. And it's far more fair to characterize it as the latter, with notably problematic subjects in the former. The problem is when people overwhelmingly define it as the former while refusing to listen to others that say the latter is the true content, and in large part that former is amplified by those who haven't even played the game. It might be "true", but it's also mischaracterizing what the game is and does.

A lot of people have said it, but you can engage with a problematic work and appreciate it, while acknowledging its issues. If you don't want to engage with it that's fine, but if in not engaging with it you just want to cast judgment on the work and the fans of the work I think it's an obnoxious behavior. That people keep coming in here talking about 9,000 year old dragons tells you the nature of the discourse around here, because it doesn't describe a single thing in this game.

Emphasis mine.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
Ehhhhh.....I'm not gonna judge the game because I haven't played it but from the description in the OP I have no intention to play it now. I can't with shit like this.
It does sometimes (actually a lot of times) feel like people here give Japanese games waaaaaaay more leeway with shit like this (and straight up homophobia) instead of calling it out but since I haven't played the game it would feel unfair to use it as an example.
 

AbsoluteZ3R0

Member
Feb 5, 2019
885
What I loved most about the game was the narrative. I think the narrative is better for having them nude because it makes sense and has a meaningful metaphor. I think the videogame as a whole is worse for sexualizing women and children, and could have been better. That's what it means to like something but be willing to engage with its core problems. If the cockpits would have been merely headshots (and yes, not had their hair/face accessories), I think it would have been a better game. They still would have been nude though.

I still don't see the necessity in it. I don't think the theme of rebirth and exploring new world would have changed at all if they were clothed as opposed to naked. The important idea behind rebirth is that you get explore the world again without being shackled event of your previous life and as long you can convey that I don't think whether you were clothed or naked makes a difference metaphorically or thematically, or at least not enough justify nude highschool kids.

You may say they not need to justify it and in a perfect world I would have agreed. However we don't live in one and sexualizing women and underage girl has been huge issue in media especially in terms of anime, visual novels and jrpgs. As a result if your going have highschool nudity, I think you need to have extremely valid reason to justify it.
 

Foxnull

Alt-Account
Banned
May 30, 2019
1,651
User banned (2 weeks): Dismissing concerns around sexual objectification. Whataboutism.
This game barely has any fan service at all. We are talking about a handful of scenes in a 30 to 40 hour game, you don't even really notice it while playing.

Also, why is it not okay in this game, but games like Persona 5 get a pass, even though they're much 'worse' in that regard?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
This game barely has any fan service at all. We are talking about a handful of scenes in a 30 to 40 hour game, you don't even really notice it while playing.

Also, why is it not okay in this game, but games like Persona 5 get a pass, even though they're much 'worse' in that regard?
I don't think Persona 5 does get a pass on Era (in the broader sense, I don't know if you are aiming at individual posters here), like these threads from earlier this year. We get regular discussions on the themes of the game and why some of them are problematic for it's young cast. There are regular discussions rooted in both appreciation of good elements and criticism of poor ones, just as it should be.
www.resetera.com

Persona 5: Capitalism, Rebellion, and its Waifu Culture

I want to start off by saying that I have a love/hate relationship with Persona 5. I was there in that one GAF thread among many of you eagerly awaiting the announcement. I was there when the game was delayed multiple times. I was there when Royal released and loved the last half of that...
www.resetera.com

Could Persona 5 have worked in a college setting?

I have seen quite a lot of people want a persona game in college. In regards to 5, based on the designs of most of the cast and mannerisms how they were written (i.e absent parental figures, seem kind of independent), and P5 Scramble has Haru and Makoto now in college, I could see this game...
 
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Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,374
Just remember,

This is probably the most tame George Kanitami will ever go.

Also, why is it not okay in this game, but games like Persona 5 get a pass, even though they're much 'worse' in that regard?

P5 absolutely doesn't get a pass. One of the biggest criticism is how the first act is all about exposing abusers taking advantage of children, and the second act is the group acting as abusers taking advantage of children, the one in question supposedly being their friend.
 

Deleted member 49319

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 4, 2018
3,672
I agree with all the points listed. But 13 Sentinels is probably the least offender in the genre, and people go all out in other threads trying to make it look like a pervy hentai show, which it is not.
 

Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,374
Again, not the artist. He wrote the script this time and handed off character designs and art to others.

Yes, I'm sure he also penned the reason why these children have to be nude in their skyscrapper sized mech suits.

Come on man. He has a history of stuff like this.
 

dark494

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,543
Seattle
Yes, I'm sure he also penned the reason why these children have to be nude in their skyscrapper sized mech suits.

Come on man. He has a history of stuff like this.
I don't particular care what you and the rest of the kamitani hit-squad keep coming in here to derail with. The fact of the matter is
Contrary to previous works, Kamitani worked on the script alone and handed character design duties to Yukiko Hirai and Emika Kida.
 

Malakym

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 17, 2019
357
If you want to know:

It's the spot where they got shot with a special gun that enables them to use the mechs. So it's different for everyone

So basically this

340

I mean I dont see the point in either case aside from obvious pandering.

Also I'm not quoting the person but its wild that someone straight up decided a good argument was "actually you're the pedo for noticing they're sexualized needlessly, checkmate"
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
User banned (5 days): Whataboutism around objectification
Personally, I take much more offense with the "fanservice" points (and even then, the ridiculous sexualization in point 2 over a girl wearing bloomers) than with 1, which going by the picture is extremely tame.

The conversation overall irks me, because I sympathize with the sentiment, but I can't help finding the framing of it (read: the hyperbole and disingenuous arguments surroinding it) incredibly prudish. A bit hypocritical too, since whenever hyperviolence and gun culture are brought up when it comes to games, it gets shrugged off. Whataboutism, I know, but the perceived gravity of these issues skews so hard toward American values specifically that it bothers me.
 

Pixel_Stream

Member
Oct 28, 2017
180
it is an anime game.
none of this is something anime fans haven't seen 1000x before if not worse.

People in here acting like their is graphic sex or something. There is some large breasted characters, and some shots of some bare shoulders.

This barely even registered for me while playing it.
agreed 100 percent.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
Pro-tip:

If you ever feel the urge to justify nude kids and find yourself using the word "technically" then just stop.
 

Exit Music

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,082
Personally, I take much more offense with the "fanservice" points (and even then, the ridiculous sexualization in point 2 over a girl wearing bloomers) than with 1, which going by the picture is extremely tame.

The conversation overall irks me, because I sympathize with the sentiment, but I can't help finding the framing of it (read: the hyperbole and disingenuous arguments surroinding it) incredibly prudish. A bit hypocritical too, since whenever hyperviolence and gun culture are brought up when it comes to games, it gets shrugged off. Whataboutism, I know, but the perceived gravity of these issues skews so hard toward American values specifically that it bothers me.

I don't think it can be handwaived as prudish American values. The issue isn't sex, it's hypersezualized women which I think is a problem because it influences the way young boys and men view women and think about sex. Women become sexual objects instead of equal willing partners in sex.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Personally, I take much more offense with the "fanservice" points (and even then, the ridiculous sexualization in point 2 over a girl wearing bloomers) than with 1, which going by the picture is extremely tame.

The conversation overall irks me, because I sympathize with the sentiment, but I can't help finding the framing of it (read: the hyperbole and disingenuous arguments surroinding it) incredibly prudish. A bit hypocritical too, since whenever hyperviolence and gun culture are brought up when it comes to games, it gets shrugged off. Whataboutism, I know, but the perceived gravity of these issues skews so hard toward American values specifically that it bothers me.

I think it's a mistake thinking that this is about prudism and I don't get why it keeps being said everywhere. Like, just think for a bit, there's games with actual sex relationships where we don't have this conversation, why is that?

The problem isn't sex or nudity, is how it's being represented.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
Edit: I have seen now the full portrait of one of the girls, and yeah, that's pretty fucking bad. At least it's not in the game proper, as far as I understand.

I think it's a mistake thinking that this is about prudism and I don't get why it keeps being said everywhere. Like, just think for a bit, there's games with actual sex relationships where we don't have this conversation, why is that?

The problem isn't sex or nudity, is how it's being represented.
I haven't played the game, so I'm a bit hesitant about making definitive statements on it. Going by what's presented in the OP having read other threads on this game, I was expecting something much more indefensible than soulders and a back shot from point 1.

After actually seeing what it is, putting a NSFW tag on it is a bit too much, imo. The 'prudish' part refers to that specifically, since it's what I've seen dominate the conversation. That and, on a discourse level, the focus on nudity in some titles but normalization of violence in others.

That said, I agree with the other points brought up in the OP. The problematic aspects are way more obvious there.

I don't think it can be handwaived as prudish American values. The issue isn't sex, it's hypersezualized women which I think is a problem because it influences the way young boys and men view women and think about sex. Women become sexual objects instead of equal willing partners in sex.
I agree with all the above, just so we're clear. If, however, the nudity in question is just this and it serves a purpose in the narrative and its themes, then I probably won't find it objectionable when I play it. Probably.
 
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Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,918
Yeah I saw all the GOTY posts about this game so I bought it.

It's telling a really interesting story but the the game was made by a bunch of horny people that sexualise high school kids.

That shit is not acceptable. You can't call someone a prude when they call out nude kids in mechs for story reasons.

Also the animations and art sexualise the girls far more than the boys.

Of course anime fans have a victim complex. Like the evil SJWs discussing it will cause it to be banned in the west so they gotta get all defensive.

Mah days on these takes.

A PS4 theme where one of the teen characters is nude lying on her mech? ITS ONLY LIMITED EDITON, SO NOTHING WRONG

Also a woman being the artist isn't the trump card you think it is. It's the situation where you think you're saying something clever but the people you're talking to think you've got rocks for a brain.
 

coldsagging

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,861
I find it odd and frustrating. I was completely ready to jump in and buy it until I heard about this.

Surely they know they're practically shooing away a potentially large amount of customers in pandering to this shit? Surely they know they're undermining their own story and art with it?

The art is beautiful from what I've seen, the praise for the story couldn't be higher around these parts and the soundtrack is supposedly good too. But they shit all over themselves for the sake of a few big tits and kiddies in their underwear. Its baffling.

And they wonder why their games don't sell lol
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,232
I find it odd and frustrating. I was completely ready to jump in and buy it until I heard about this.

Surely they know they're practically shooing away a potentially large amount of customers in pandering to this shit? Surely they know they're undermining their own story and art with it?

The art is beautiful from what I've seen, the praise for the story couldn't be higher around these parts and the soundtrack is supposedly good too. But they shit all over themselves for the sake of a few big tits and kiddies in their underwear. Its baffling.

And they wonder why their games don't sell lol

I don't think they give a shit. The people who made this game really, really love anime tropes and probably think this stuff makes the game better, not worse.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,023
The game's in my top 3 of the year but yeah some of it is clearly problematic. Fuyusaka and Kisaragi (I think?) are quite obviously depicted differently in their mechs compared to some of the other characters and you can't handwave it away because of story spoiler reasons. There's no reason for them to be depicted like they are when you consider the other characters like Shinonome etc don't have the same problem.
 

Trim

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
535
it is an anime game.
none of this is something anime fans haven't seen 1000x before if not worse.

People in here acting like their is graphic sex or something. There is some large breasted characters, and some shots of some bare shoulders.

This barely even registered for me while playing it.
This
 

maouvin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Blumenau - Brazil
The pilots being naked wouldn't bother so much if all the girls were in the same pose as Yuki or Natsuno. Fuyusaka, Iori and Megumi's poses show too much (if you don't know them by name, you can likely guess by looking at the pic). The pilots themselves rarely talk about it, if ever, too.

For the adult fanservice... it's "Vanillaware as usual", have nothing new to add here really. Feels like they put the teacher there so you remind who's behind the game.

I had to look back for footage of the game to see who got a pantyshot when I saw people complaining, because I didn't ever notice it. Then again, I've played and watched worse, so it must be more obvious for me to notice.

So I get people's reaction. Finding it problematic? I can understand. All of those could be suppresed and the overall experience would at least be the same. I believe OP's points are spot on.

But some people make it look like a Kenichiro Takaki game. Come on.
 

Exit Music

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,082
I agree with all the above, just so we're clear. If, however, the nudity in question is just this and it serves a purpose in the narrative and its themes, then I probably won't find it objectionable when I play it. Probably.

Here again, just because someone creates a game (or any kind of art) doesn't make them immune to criticism. Of course there are times when nudity and sexuality are handled appropriately. I mean, look - porn exists, right? And that's fine as long as we are talking about consenting adults, yadda yadda. The issue isn't sex, it's context. I think what you're saying is a fair point that it can fit within the narrative, but that doesn't necessarily excuse someone who just wants to titillate their audience with hypersexualized teenage girls.
 

Chaystic

Member
Mar 2, 2020
4,453
Switzerland
User warned: Avatar shaming
This is why I can't bring myself to play any japanese anime style games, they are very problematic and i'm not surprised that people with anime avatars are defending them.
 

Senator Rains

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,337
I came so close to buying this game the other day before a friend recommended I play DQ11 instead. Best decision ever.

Personally, I wouldn't want my little sister to be around someone who actively seeks out and enjoys this type of media, so I think it's hypocritical of me to turn a blind eye to it, even if it was a small portion. Being an anime game doesn't excuse it all, nor does having a good narrative.

Additionally, part of being a well written game is having characters who I can take seriously. I seriously can't take this type of anime tropes seriously even if it was toned down.


I think it's a mistake thinking that this is about prudism and I don't get why it keeps being said everywhere. Like, just think for a bit, there's games with actual sex relationships where we don't have this conversation, why is that?

The problem isn't sex or nudity, is how it's being represented.

People should checkout interviews with the Hades dev team. The character designer said she intentionally wanted the characters to be sexy and hot, and they were drawn and represented (IMO) in such a beautiful and empowering way. This is done very easily by keeping thristy old designers away from the drawing table.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
Here again, just because someone creates a game (or any kind of art) doesn't make them immune to criticism. Of course there are times when nudity and sexuality are handled appropriately. I mean, look - porn exists, right? And that's fine as long as we are talking about consenting adults, yadda yadda. The issue isn't sex, it's context. I think what you're saying is a fair point that it can fit within the narrative, but that doesn't necessarily excuse someone who just wants to titillate their audience with specialized teenage girls.
Sure, that's fair and I can agree. Still, the main topic of my post (which, in retrospect, I could have articulated more clearly) is that I'm frustrated by people's priorities when it comes discussing games here. Fair and healthy criticism of a piece of media is, to me, holistic, and that's a courtesy extended to some games, but not others. I just wish the zero-tolerance policy some people have for this kind of stuff also extended to topics such as militarism or violence against animals, but I guess that's way too off-topic.
 

oskilatah

Banned
May 31, 2019
64
Nice edit. For those wondering, the original comment said 'I'm actually out now, the conversation isn't going anywhere. Save this energy for real issues.'

Which is, of course, blatantly dismissing legitimate concerns over sexualisation (and, in particular, female sexualisation) in games.

I realized what I said was dismissive and edited it instantly after posting. You sure got me !
 

Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,586
It's infuriating honestly because that shit is only ever on screen for like five seconds in a 40 hour game, but the fact that it's there at all drags it down. And you can spend so much time digging into the story and getting invested in all these sci fi concepts and mysteries and then you have to do the rts parts and be reminded of it again.

And it's like, so much of what the game is is worth digging into. But it doesn't excuse those portraits no matter what the in-universe justification for the nudity is (haven't finished the game yet and haven't looked at spoilers). And it feels bad that I have to justify the fact that I've spent so much time playing this game and am enjoying it as much as I am, when it seems like for a lot of people looking in those portraits are the game. Like a lot of people here seem to think this game is Pedo Simulator and I can't handwave the concern over those portraits no matter how small a part of the game they are, because they are unjustifiable. I wish I could erase those parts or that we had a "censored" version to play and recommend to people.
 

Shorty11857

Member
Oct 25, 2017
828
As much as I love this game and could buy into "there's a reason for it" the framing on some of the shots is just...indefensible. Felt so uncomfortable when they were ahown
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,834
We need to stop calling this "fan service." What fans are they servicing? Call it what it is. Weirdo service. Or perv service.
 

Deleted member 59261

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 16, 2019
96
I love good scifi and great stories. I would probably have tried this game if it wasn't for the unnecessary fan-service mentioned in the OP. Some of the underage girls having their "mech activators" on revealing places is also a problem. Imagine if one of the dudes had to unzip their pants or lift up their shirt (to reveal abs or something) to activate theirs. All of these things detract from the game's supposedly amazing story. As someone who lives with a girlfriend I imagine what she would say if she saw me play a game with all these things in it. Some don't care about these issues and/or is willing to look past them, but I can't. If you want to tell a mature tale with children, you must avoid these things. Focus on the story you want to tell, don't include fan-service. Then again, we are looking at this from a Western perspective. Maybe the Japanese doesn't consider this an actual problem that detracts from the story? Why do they feel the need to include it in the first place? I actually don't know.
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,927
The sad thing is that the ratio of good content to skeevy/pedo stuff is like 99:1, such a shame that the middle-aged men who make the design decisions just can't let go of their creepy urges. The game would have been just fine without the sweaty, nude teenagers being leered at inside their giant robots.
 

Paquete_PT

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,313
I agree that the game's aesthetic is very off putting for me but I'm still curious to try it.
Regarding the thread, I have to say, calling over-sexualization of female character "fan service" is extremely disgusting and hints at deeper and more systematic problems in this sort of style, imo
 

DynamicSushy

Member
Sep 7, 2019
661
User banned (2 weeks): Whataboutisms. Community generalizations. Inflammatory accusations.
it is an anime game.
none of this is something anime fans haven't seen 1000x before if not worse.

People in here acting like their is graphic sex or something. There is some large breasted characters, and some shots of some bare shoulders.

This barely even registered for me while playing it.
And people shrug off intense violence and explicit sex scenes in western games. There's just a lot of members here who aren't into non-Nintendo Japanese games

Also anyone who came in here to say "yikes" are prolly the biggest pervs on the forum
 

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,107
Washington, D.C.
As much as I love this game and could buy into "there's a reason for it" the framing on some of the shots is just...indefensible. Felt so uncomfortable when they were ahown
My thoughts 100%. All they had to do was make them just face portraits and call it a day. Or at the very least put the women in the same non sexualized poses like the men.
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Honestly, anyone who is trying to justify the naked kid thing by the narrative thing just needs to stop lol. It doesn't even make any sense anyway.

They are naked in the pods because that's where they have essentially been grown from birth, but yet in the pictures they all have the exact same look complete with glasses and hairstyles that include a very obvious geled-up pompadour and shit like that. It's their 'self-image,' yet their self-image also is randomly aware they're nude. Like that's pretty fucking flimsy at best.

I think with 13 Sentinels, the sexualization stands out so much more than it does in these types of games because it just seems so out of place. Most of the game isn't really like that, and then you have the naked kids and the catsuit and shit, and it's like it's from an entirely different game. The whole combat stuff honestly feels like it was either tacked on last minute or was from like a previous version of the game they just decided to keep around to add content or something.
 

bombermouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
Things on the OP are bad, but if these are the only questionable things in the game I think vanillaware is improving then. Let's hope their next game is flawless.
 
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