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CaptSpaulding

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
393
User Banned (permanent): trolling, history of similar and severe infractions
I've been thinking about how can someone like Trump get elected and I think we all need to be honest with ourselves. The people who voted for him are desperate and felt like they have no other choice. They see their jobs going overseas, factories closing down. They see their communities filled with homelessness, and destroyed by drug addiction and suicide. They've lost faith in the country, in the "system".

I know some will say, "well they are just racists and we can solve all these problems with medicare for all and tax the wealthy etc", but look at Europe who already have all those things, and yet they also elected awful alt-right leaders. They also see things like immigration and refugees as a detriment to their society and not a positive. I think people tend to feel this way when they are desperate and are trying to protect whatever they feel they still have left (national "identity", etc). The trend of anti-immigration feelings didn't really rise until recently. Also look at Mexico, another great "democratic" government which is imploding and on the brink of collapse. Or look at the Philippines, where the people are so desperate they elected an authoritarian monster like Duterte because they think they have no other way to solve their drug problems.

I know that I haven't thought this through completely and my thoughts aren't totally coherent, but I still think there is an argument here that the election of all these extremist, authoritarian leaders around the world is a sign that western democracy is failing its citizens. Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.

Anyway sorry for sounding so negative and maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. But I see the proof before my eyes and can no longer deny the reality: there is something really, really wrong with the current way "democracies" work around the world.
 

WedgeX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,168
Maybe we need a protective republic system in place where we indirectly vote for people, with the people actually elected tasked with doing what's right rather than just selecting the most popular person.

Or at least that's what the US' founders thought would work. Turns out, direct democracy in the US would be significantly better, as both Gore and Clinton would've been President.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do: preserving existing power structures.
This is the only response needed. Also like the us elected Reagan 40 years ago so 🤔🤔🤔

Maybe we need a protective republic system in place where we indirectly vote for people, with the people actually elected tasked with doing what's right rather than just selecting the most popular person.

Or at least that's what the US' founders thought would work. Turns out, direct democracy in the US would be significantly better, as both Gore and Clinton would've been President.

I mean they pretty clearly wanted to protect the interests of major landowners. Nothing much has changed except land has been replaced with capital.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
We didn't see systemic economic collapse in Western Europe yet we've elected more political extremists than Spain and Greece, and Poland and Hungary are posting record growth yet keep voting for chuds. This isn't an economics issue.

And you're choosing to highlight China here over South Korea, Japan and Taiwan? Really? They're fucking conducting ethnic cleansing!
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,360
If anything it shows its strength to check the power of the highest position in the US government. Jesus, one election goes wrong and some of you people turn on something so fundamental as democracy.
 

aceface

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,960
Maybe the failure of US democracy. Don't lump the entire west in with the US, please.

The OP mentioned Europe.

Yeah, Democracy sucks. The problem is that other government systems suck more. If people would vote in their own interests for policies that would benefit the majority, great. But people are dumb and easily fall for propaganda on Facebook and Fox News that is paid for by the rich that keeps the rich in power, with policies that benefit them.
 

BuckRogers

Member
Apr 5, 2018
774
Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.

Your overall point is up for debate, but I would argue that the Chinese government is absolutely "failing" certain segments of its population, and that this is a disturbingly rosy view of authoritarian states.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I know some will say, "well they are just racists and we can solve all these problems with medicare for all and tax the wealthy etc", but look at Europe who already have all those things, and yet they also elected awful alt-right leaders. They also see things like immigration and refugees as a detriment to their society and not a positive.

...

It's almost like racism is not a problem unique to America!

(We can't solve it with Medicare for All, either.)

Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.

The PRC is currently in the midst of a massive purge of Uighur Muslims for their ethnicity and religion, complete with shipping all the men to camps and sending Han men to rape their wives and raise their children.

But sure, let's put "freedoms" in quotes.

Funny how the people who say maybe fascist dictatorships would be a good idea always seem to envision themselves wearing the jackboot rather than under it.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
Western democracy isn't perfect, but when one of it's failures is that it can be susceptible to demagogues who subvert the system and make it into an authoritarian one, the idea that we should skip the intermediate periods and go straight to dictatorships is kind of absurd
 
Nov 10, 2019
120
Blame the Electoral College. First thing that must be done once we get a Democratic President in 2020 is abolish that.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
...Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.
So let me get this straight... Our Democracy elects one recent leader that you find politically disagreeable and your sensible opinion is that we adopt the Chicken Little approach and act like the sky is falling and that China's system is more humane to the average citizen?

Trump's victory to me says less about Democracy's structural shortcomings and more about the power of divisive racial rhetoric and the continued growth in polarized politics and xenophobic narrative. The latter of which is currently driving the ongoing cruelty of China towards its Uighur population. The simple fact that we're all not being carted away to some China-esque re-education camp for criticizing the current government online is all the proof that I need that our system - warts and all, is a substantial improvement over China.

If you have a better system in mind than Democracy then please, by all means, I'm all ears.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.
China is poor as fuck. Its GDP per capita is 1/6th of the US and lower than even some of the poorest countries of Europe, it's barely comparable.
 

Cation

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,603
Failure would imply the whole system went into chaos.

We aren't there yet fam...how many of you ever been to a 3rd world country? One election in the history of 250 years+ and you all are acting like there is no hope left. Smh, democracy still stands. It's bad, but it's not Dictator bad yet
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
Trump/Bush were a failure of the electoral college. Gerrymandering a failure of the congressional electoral process. Kavenaugh a failure if the appointee process.

However, there have been major changes to these processes in the past and the failures I highlighted could be remedied to establish a more fair system.

Democracy will never be perfect, but it's by far the best any major population has ever had.
 

Mr. X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,495
Can't fight biology. Easily falling into tribalism time and time again due to greed and self preservation. Democracy can be fixed, it's all rules we can overwrite.
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
Giving people power ends in a disaster eventually because of group mentality and greed. I bet China will break the record for longest ever superpower if climate change doesn't wipe us all out.
 

Seven of Nine

Member
Oct 27, 2017
170
I think similarly, though I think the thing they are holding on to is the white national identity and the idea of manifest destiny. I don't think it's just racism or just economic factors, it's both.

They didnt lose faith in the old power structures, it's that they feel that the small progress that has been made has hurt them, and they want to "restore" what they think was lost. This is why Trump's MAGA is so effective for his voting base. It's why they oppose progressive causes.They want to preserve the power structures, not change them. They are loyal to Trump because when they thought the old power structure was doomed, he is doing everything he can to reinforcethem. Most of that is to benefit himself, but they don't mind, he's part of the power structure they adore so much.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Nah, not buying this.

He sold himself as someone who would destroy the current political structure. He's just a fucking conman and somehow people believed him.

All populists do this. Eventually they become the establishment.

Turnover in democracies is healthy because power always, always corrupts.
 

Rogue74

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,754
Miami, FL
Blame the Electoral College. First thing that must be done once we get a Democratic President in 2020 is abolish that.
Doesn't work that way. You would need a Constitutional Amendment to change the electoral process. A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution if it is ratified by 38 of the 50 states (three-fourths). Since changing the system to a popular vote would make most of the states irrelevant, there is no way you would get 38 of them to go along.

It isn't happening.
 

AZ Greg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
349
If anything it shows its strength to check the power of the highest position in the US government. Jesus, one election goes wrong and some of you people turn on something so fundamental as democracy.

Agreed.

It's predictable though. If I can downplay the system we live by then I can justify why I'm miserable or why I'm in a bad spot in life.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
I don't think it's on democracy itself. It's that governments have been corrupted by the influence on money. Institutions work for the wealthy and exploit and maintain ignorance and racism to advance their goals.

Is reform needed? Abso fucking lutely.

A constitutional amendment is needed to limit the influence of money in politics and restore some semblance of a proper representative democracy.

It's not just the right wing in the way. But also centrist liberals.
 

aerts1js

Member
May 11, 2019
1,384
OP you're being overly dramatic. It sucks that he was elected and maybe there are some opportunities to improve the current system in regard to the electoral college but Democracy hasn't failed. Not even close.
 

Dixie Flatline

alt account
Banned
Sep 4, 2019
1,892
New Orleans
Giving people power ends in a disaster eventually because of group mentality and greed. I bet China will break the record for longest ever superpower if climate change doesn't wipe us all out.
What's your definition of a super power? The land mass or the government because historically, China's government is fairly new. It's been active since the Communists Revolution in the 1940's.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
People live infinitely better in any democratic country with equivalent income than in China. You are basing your conclusions on false facts. Go live in China and be imprisoned, beaten, harassed or killed for your ideas, and then come back and tell us all how good dictatorships are.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,040
Blame the Electoral College. First thing that must be done once we get a Democratic President in 2020 is abolish that.
Not gonna happen. Best you can hope for right now is that enough states agree to vote based on the popular vote. It's a currently non-binding agreement (NPVIC) that is working towards a condition where the Electoral College is effectively eliminated even if it's not legally removed.
 

PKthndr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,587
The solution to democracy that is failing is more democracy. Get the Electoral College outta here. Make my vote in Washington State mean as much as a swing state vote.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
I've been thinking about how can someone like Trump get elected and I think we all need to be honest with ourselves. The people who voted for him are desperate and felt like they have no other choice. They see their jobs going overseas, factories closing down. They see their communities filled with homelessness, and destroyed by drug addiction and suicide. They've lost faith in the country, in the "system".

I know some will say, "well they are just racists and we can solve all these problems with medicare for all and tax the wealthy etc", but look at Europe who already have all those things, and yet they also elected awful alt-right leaders. They also see things like immigration and refugees as a detriment to their society and not a positive. I think people tend to feel this way when they are desperate and are trying to protect whatever they feel they still have left (national "identity", etc). The trend of anti-immigration feelings didn't really rise until recently. Also look at Mexico, another great "democratic" government which is imploding and on the brink of collapse. Or look at the Philippines, where the people are so desperate they elected an authoritarian monster like Duterte because they think they have no other way to solve their drug problems.

I know that I haven't thought this through completely and my thoughts aren't totally coherent, but I still think there is an argument here that the election of all these extremist, authoritarian leaders around the world is a sign that western democracy is failing its citizens. Contrast this with much more authoritarian countries like China, where problems like drugs and homelessness are non-existent, a booming economy (despite Trump's attempts to kill it), and the people aren't desperate. Sure the trade-off is they don't enjoy as much "freedoms" as we do, but their government certainly isn't "failing" their people like ours is. And it's even arguable at this point what type of governments are less "corrupt", democracies or authoritarian states.

Anyway sorry for sounding so negative and maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. But I see the proof before my eyes and can no longer deny the reality: there is something really, really wrong with the current way "democracies" work around the world.

Lol. Where the fuck do you think mentally ill and drug addicts go in China?
 

PoppaBK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
It's the media and big money that is killing democracy. Everything is soundbites, bullshit rhetoric, and stage presence. Everyone is so lost in the soup that name recognition will get you 50% of the way. A shit load of cash and some polemics will get you the other 50%. And trying to fix the problem just made things worse. That's why immigration etc are such hot button issues, not because they are actually that important, but because they lend themselves to simple concepts and easy soundbites.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
I will never support the anti democracy people.
Being able to see that democracy has glaring as fuck problems doesn't mean you have to support anything else more.

Maybe the failure of US democracy. Don't lump the entire west in with the US, please.
I mean, the U.S. isn't the only clusterfuck in the west right now. Trump sticks out, but you have Britain's FPTP leading to tories, plus you have Brexit that was pure popular vote and the far right isn't exactly wiped out in Europe either.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
The election of Trump doesn't show that. You're going to elect some awful people once in a while. It's the complete and utter lack of any oversight or constraint on him whatsoever that shows we've failed.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Doesn't work that way. You would need a Constitutional Amendment to change the electoral process. A proposed amendment becomes part of the Constitution if it is ratified by 38 of the 50 states (three-fourths). Since changing the system to a popular vote would make most of the states irrelevant, there is no way you would get 38 of them to go along.

It isn't happening.

thats not the only way, all you need is states that add up to 270 EC to pledge to give their votes to the winner of the popular vote, which some have been in the process of trying to get done already for years

they're already at 200EC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
 
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