Lethal Injections - Last Week Tonight

[Keasar]

I think this is quite an important subject to cover and wanted to make a thread about it, as I know there are people who still support the death penalty " if it's done humanely", but there is nothing humane about this in any situation. Lethal injection is one such thing that is often mentioned but as we're seeing in this weeks subject, it is faaaaaaar from humane as we might think. We're talking about killing human people in all case, and there are no good solutions to it.

People in non-HBO approved countries can try this link: https://us6.proxysite.com/process.php?d=JInwVDS7IAW8VZp6HfG0EAcBHWO0/HQuCtVhpol7Lu+ZKCHaeWfX&b=6&f=norefer



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTczPEG8iI

The description of the process of lethal injection is fucking harrowing especially. Add to that, no matter how miniscule, that there is a percentage of people who are proven innocent afterwards who go through this. I never wanna support capital punishment and I am glad for living in a part of the world that looks heavily down on it, even for the worst of criminals we've ever captured.

Please also avoid posts that either is or boils down to just being "John Oliver isn't funny", I and many who listen to his show anyway because of the subjects brought up, do not care.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Learning about the death penalty makes you not want to support it it, at least in my case

 

[Kasey]

That frog tho

 

[Inugami]

No such thing as a humane way to murder someone, who knew?

 

[Deleted member 249]

State sponsored murder is unacceptable.

 

[Orbit]

I don't know whether lethal injections are right or wrong. Watched the video and, if those are truly the facts, it does seem horrifying. However, some of the people who are sentenced to death (like people who are serial killers, shooters, etc.), I feel like I would be fine if they suffered before they died.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

I usually think I'm against the death penalty. Then I'll hear stories, like the one about the little girl killed found shoved in a suitcase somewhere who died of having a ruptured rectum after they shoved a bunch of vegetables in her, and I'm fine with killing those people. I saw another family recently who tortured their 5 year old for his entire life until he starved to death. Documented the whole thing with video. You can kill those people for me. Basically, if we're 100% sure you're the killer, and you torture other human beings, I'm fine with it I guess.

 

[Robin]

I know I'm on the far end of the pole here but I don't even think incarceration as it exists today is moral let along premeditated murder by the state.

 

[Orbit]

I usually think I'm against the death penalty. Then I'll hear stories, like the one about the little girl killed found shoved in a suitcase somewhere who died of having a ruptured rectum after they shoved a bunch of vegetables in her, and I'm fine with killing those people. I saw another family recently who tortured their 5 year old for his entire life until he starved to death. Documented the whole thing with video. You can kill those people for me. Basically, if we're 100% sure you're the killer, and you torture other human beings, I'm fine with it I guess.

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I am the same. As I said above, I am not sure whether I am for or against it. But when I read the stories like you described, i wish lethal injection was replaced on methods that killed the murderer in the same exact way they killed their victims.

I know I'm on the far end of the pole here but I don't even think incarceration as it exists today is moral let along premeditated murder by the state.

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I agree that incarceration, for some of the incarcerated, should be more of a rehabilitative venture than punishment. But as I've said before, for the truly grotesque crimes and murders committed by really, really sick individuals, I do not care if they are killed by the state.

 

[Bakercat]

Watched during breakfast, very informative and downright disgusting. People just want to ignorantly support the death penalty without feeling the guilt of pulling the switch.

 

[Deleted member 16365]

What was the url with the frog?

 

[Robin]

I am the same. As I said above, I am not sure whether I am for or against it. But when I read the stories like you described, i wish lethal injection was replaced on methods that killed the murderer in the same exact way they killed their victims.


I agree that incarceration, for some of the incarcerated, should be more of a rehabilitative venture than punishment. But as I've said before, for the truly grotesque crimes and murders committed by really, really sick individuals, I do not care if they are killed by the state.

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Are you aware that 1 in 25 americans sentenced to death were wrong convinctions?

https://www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed-us-innocent-study-claims-248889

 

[NHarmonic.]

So what about those unable to be "rehabilitated"?

 

[Inugami]

So what about those unable to be "rehabilitated"?

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Prisons still exist.

 

[Keasar]

So what about those unable to be "rehabilitated"?

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Like KojiKnight said, there is still prison. The problem does come however that, in the case of America at least, the prison system is absolutely fucking awful and not built around or even thought to consider rehabilitating prisoners but making sure that they come back so private owners can wring more money out of them. Prisons need to first and foremost be state owned so that they work towards public interests rather than private.

What was the url with the frog?

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http://wikileaksorwhatever.com/

 

[Arkestry]

So what about those unable to be "rehabilitated"?

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It's cheaper to lock them up forever than to kill them. The death penalty is morally, economically and humanely wrong.

 

[Orbit]

Are you aware that 1 in 25 americans sentenced to death were wrong convinctions?

https://www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed-us-innocent-study-claims-248889

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You're right. It is straight up appalling how many people are wrongly convicted and lose decades of their lives or just straight up lose their lives. That's why this topic for me has a lot more layers for me than a simple yes or no. But in terms of people who are rightly convicted, terrible serial killers/murders/school shooters/shooters, then I am fine with them dying. But I agree, there is a lot of disgusting errors in the system. Just saying in terms of the truly heinous criminals, I am fine with them dying,.

 

[Green Yoshi]

It baffles me that the US Surpreme Court never banned the death penalty. A state shouldn't have the right to kill its citizens.

The whole justice system is broken. A lot of people get locked up way too long.

 

[Frozenprince]

Murdering people that did something wrong is bad. Yes. We shouldn't murder people, no matter what they've done.

That's what the "death penalty" is. Murdering someone.

 

[Anarion07]

I saw the episode yesterday and don't recall him talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation this?
I'm wildly against capital punishment, but if you're doing it, why not this way? No feeling of suffocation. Or maybe he talked about it and I forgot

 

[bane833]

State sponsored murder is unacceptable.

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Killing someone who raped and murdered a child isn´t murder. They deserve to die.

Are you aware that 1 in 25 americans sentenced to death were wrong convinctions?

https://www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed-us-innocent-study-claims-248889

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How many people die in prison due to wrong conviction?

It's cheaper to lock them up forever than to kill them.

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You´re doing something seriously wrong if locking someone up for a few months/years until he gets executed is more expensive than locking someone up for 30, 40 or more years.

 

[ChrisJSY]

While I believe there are certain people who deserve it, even the most minuscule chance someone is innocent makes me not agree with it.

 

[Arkestry]

Killing someone who raped and murdered a child isn´t murder. They deserve to die.


How many people die in prison due to wrong conviction?


You´re doing something seriously wrong if locking someone up for a few months/years until he gets executed is more expensive than locking someone up for 30, 40 or more years.

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https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

 

[bane833]

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

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The question here is why is it more expensive when it shouldn´t be.

 

[Arkestry]

The question here is why is it more expensive when it shouldn´t be.

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You have to house then in special wards. You're have to have a dedicated state murder facility. You have to source the drugs and pay everyone involved in killing someone extra. It's fucking expensive to kill people just to give a few people revenge by proxy.

Not too mention the massive amount of extra money to try a death penalty case, and the emotional toll on the jurors who sentence someone to death.

 

[bane833]

You have to house then in special wards. You're have to have a dedicated state murder facility. You have to source the drugs and pay everyone involved in killing someone extra. It's fucking expensive to kill people just to give a few people revenge by proxy.

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Well you have to house murderers in special wards anyway don´t you? I mean you can´t just throw them in prison together with people who stole cars or evaded taxes.

 

[Turin Turambar]

No such thing as a humane way to murder someone, who knew?

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If you think about, the whole issue is really what it seems 'humane' to the people executing the prisoner. They want to feel good with themselves, pat themselves on the back saying they are doing it in a humane way. They want a 'clean' death, not something as described in the video as 'gross'. It's all egoistic, because if the death looks horrible, it would make proponents of death penalty look bad.
Looking at it in a cold, unfeeling way, we have the technology to kill someone with absolutely zero pain and suffering. Just detonate an explosive close to their heads. He will be killed faster than the brain can process any pain signal. But having bits of meat, bone and brain flying around wouldn't make for good marketing...

 

[Arkestry]

Well you have to house murderers in special wards anyway don´t you? I mean you can´t just throw them in prison together with people who stole cars or evaded taxes.

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Not every murderer is on death row.

 

[Frozenprince]

Killing someone who raped and murdered a child isn´t murder. They deserve to die.

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Yes, it is. It's explicitly murder. You're killing someone, that's what murder is.

Killing someone to justify some bloodlust we as a culture here have created towards the perversion of "justice" we've created is disgusting. We moved on from "an eye for an eye" millennia ago. The state being able to murder is wrong. Killing people, human beings, despite the depravity of an action they have done is wrong.

 

[MetalGear?]

Yes, it is. It's explicitly murder. You're killing someone, that's what murder is.

Killing someone to justify some bloodlust we as a culture here have created towards the perversion of "justice" we've created is disgusting. We moved on from "an eye for an eye" millennia ago. The state being able to murder is wrong.

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Thank you.

 

[bane833]

Not every murderer is on death row.

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Obviously not but what does having a death penalty or not change about the way you lock up people? I mean as i said earlier, you can´t just put some extremely violent offenders together with people who stole cars or evaded taxes. And this special treament is bound to be more expensive compared to a "normal" inmate.

 

[Frozenprince]

Obviously not but what does having a death penalty or not change about the way you lock up people? I mean as i said earlier, you can´t just put some extremely violent offenders together with people who stole cars or evaded taxes. And this special treament is bound to be more expensive compared to a "normal" inmate.

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It works just fine in other countries where the goal of a justice system is to rehabilitate those that are capable of it and to humanely detain those that are not.

 

[Arkestry]

Obviously not but what does having a death penalty or not change about the way you lock up people? I mean as i said earlier, you can´t just put some extremely violent offenders together with people who stole cars or evaded taxes. And this special treament is bound to be more expensive compared to a "normal" inmate.

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I feel like you're being obtuse. There are obviously different levels of security at different prisons. You have high security and low security.

But you also have death row. A dedicated facility just for those sentenced for execution. Which is expensive.

 

[bane833]

Yes, it is. It's explicitly murder. You're killing someone, that's what murder is.

Killing someone to justify some bloodlust we as a culture here have created towards the perversion of "justice" we've created is disgusting. We moved on from "an eye for an eye" millennia ago. The state being able to murder is wrong. Killing people, human beings, despite the depravity of an action they have done is wrong.

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Killing someone is not murder if it´s justified. Killing someone who attacks me or my family is not murder, it´s self defense. Killing someone who murdered several people in cold blood and is a proven danger to society is also not murder. Shooting Hitler or Stalin in the head after they started to commit atrocities would not have been murder.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

While I believe there are certain people who deserve it, even the most minuscule chance someone is innocent makes me not agree with it.

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There's a point at which miniscule chances become basically zero. Like, if you don't mind some really awful gore, go read up on Robert Berdella. His last victim escaped his house by jumping naked out the second story window. The few before that went through things that are are hard to even read before they finally died. They found evidence on the surviving victim. Found the torture chamber in his house. Found pictures of him torturing other victims in his house. Found bodies/bones of his victims in his house. Found other men who testified that he drugged and raped them over the years. He even confessed eventually (to avoid a death penalty).

There's still a miniscule chance he's innocent. He could argue that the the evidence was planted, the guy he tortured for weeks mistaken or lying, and the confession coerced. There's a miniscule chance its faked.... but its not. And I'm fine with him dying. Even if there's something redeeming in the man, he doesn't deserve the chance to share it with the world.

 

[Frozenprince]

Killing someone is not murder if it´s justified. Killing someone who attacks me or my family is not murder, it´s self defense. Killing someone who murdered several people in cold blood and is a proven danger to society is also not murder. Shooting Hitler or Stalin in the head after they started to commit atrocities would not have been murder.

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This is empty sophist thinking to justify to yourself that murder is okay as long as you've got a good reason.

You think those people you're saying you're okay to murder didn't also think that their actions weren't murder? That it was justifiable killing?

You're just trying to dress up what you believe as something other than what it is so you can feel better about it. You're okay with the state murdering people that you've deemed okay to murder. That's what you believe, and if you'd just be honest about that I'd at least respect the honesty.

The problem, with "justification" for murder is that you can always blur that line more and more and more until you're "justifiably" murdering anybody you don't like. That's literally how killing works, that's how you condition people to commit murders.

 

[bane833]

I feel like you're being obtuse. There are obviously different levels of security at different prisons. You have high security and low security.

But you also have death row. A dedicated facility just for those sentenced for execution. Which is expensive.

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Yes and you don´t put murderers in a low security prison no matter if he was sentenced to life in prison or death. This seems more like a problem created by a nonsense prison system than the existance of the death penalty.

 

[Arkestry]

Can I just ask those defending the death penalty here: if it is proveably cheaper, by any metric, to incarcerate someone for the rest of their lives rather than kill them, would you still want the death penalty?

 

[bane833]

This is empty sophist thinking to justify to yourself that murder is okay as long as you've got a good reason.

You think those people you're saying you're okay to murder didn't also think that their actions weren't murder? That it was justifiable killing?

You're just trying to dress up what you believe as something other than what it is so you can feel better about it. You're okay with the state murdering people that you've deemed okay to murder. That's what you believe, and if you'd just be honest about that I'd at least respect the honesty.

The problem, with "justification" for murder is that you can always blur that line more and more and more until you're "justifiably" murdering anybody you don't like. That's literally how killing works, that's how you condition people to commit murders.

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Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.

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It doesn´t actually matter what a single person thinks about murder as we as a society have agreed on a pretty clear cut definition of murder.

 

[skullmuffins]

You´re doing something seriously wrong if locking someone up for a few months/years until he gets executed is more expensive than locking someone up for 30, 40 or more years.

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People stay on death row a long time in large part because of the appeals process. You cannot execute someone "a few months" after conviction unless you decide it's not a big deal to execute innocent people.

 

[Arkestry]

Yes and you don´t put murderers in a low security prison no matter if he was sentenced to life in prison or death. This seems more like a problem created by a nonsense prison system than the existance of the death penalty.

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Are you saying there shouldn't be a death row? I'm really not sure what your point is here.

Surely by sentencing someone to death you are, by definition, saying they're worse and more dangerous than people who aren't sentenced to death. So they can't be housed in general population.

If there's no death penalty, they can be housed with other people who can't be released in gen pop. But right now you have to separate them.

 

[Tugatrix]

So what about those unable to be "rehabilitated"?

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There are no such thing as unable of rehabilitate, if you don't lock a person on a prison and treat him like an animal, which the US are mass offenders on doing it

Some of the worst criminal in the 80's in my country were sentenced to 25 years in prison(that's the maximum penalty over here) guess what 20 years later they went out on parole and no one heard of them committing crimes again, but if they did, they would be arrested again.

Justice doesn't have to be vengeful, has to be pratical and solve a problem without more blood shed.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

Can I just ask those defending the death penalty here: if it is proveably cheaper, by any metric, to incarcerate someone for the rest of their lives rather than kill them, would you still want the death penalty?

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Cost really doesn't factor into the decision for me.

If it was provably cheaper, by any metric, to kill them, would you still want to incarcerate them for life?

 

[Arkestry]

Cost really doesn't factor into the decision for me.

If it was provably cheaper, by any metric, to kill them, would you still want to incarcerate them for life?

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It would certainly weaken my argument, but the human cost is still way too high.

 

[Frozenprince]

Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought.

It doesn´t actually matter what a single person thinks about murder as we as a society have agreed on a pretty clear cut definition of murder.

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So the excuse is what.

"They were bad therefor they deserve to die". The justification is what, "they did a bad thing so they deserve to die". You're murdering them. The state is acting, with malice, malice is literally the primary driving factor here, to kill someone. A human being.

First off, the dictionary definition is irrelevant, again you're just sidestepping your own mind that you're genuinely okay with people dying as long as it's "bad" people. We as a society do not have a clear cut definition of what murder is, that's why we've codified classifications of killing, that's why we've stratified the justice system to be amenable to what is and is not murder based on selective factors that may have nothing to do with the inlaid "justification" of whatever killing may have transpired at all. We have such a profoundly UNCLEAR idea of what murder is that there are murders committed every single day that are deemed to be justified.

See and I'm not even arguing from the position that "well if you execute an innocent person on accident" which happens literally all the time, but that's just an additional reason to be aghast at state sanctioned murder.

The state murdering someone is wrong because we're simply giving ourselves reasoning to excuse the downfall of our own morality and the underpinnings of our own society. It's a way to appease people through violence and death and keep us primed for violence, and death. What net good does murdering someone provide to society, how is it just, in what world is it righteous to murder in retaliation for murder.

Murder is wrong, it doesn't matter if the state is the one doing the murdering, in fact that should make one even more attuned to the fact that what we do in executing people is wrong. A society that deems it just to murder in retaliation or for it's own self serving justifications about retribution and to create a ravening "other" to which we can escape to blame for the ills of all society and the decay we experience is an evil, morally corrupt, and utterly self serving society.

It's no better than the Roman games throwing death row prisoners to the lions. And you need to just say "I'm fine with murdering these people because I find them evil" because that's literally all it is.

 

[Terrell]

I don't know whether lethal injections are right or wrong. Watched the video and, if those are truly the facts, it does seem horrifying. However, some of the people who are sentenced to death (like people who are serial killers, shooters, etc.), I feel like I would be fine if they suffered before they died.

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I think people forget that criminals are meant to be brought to justice, not brought to vengeance. It's why lethal injections happen, it's why prisoners are treated like animals and/or objects, everything wrong with the prison system in America comes down to this fact: Americans don't want justice, they want vengeance.

 

[Frozenprince]

I think people forget that criminals are meant to be brought to justice, not brought to vengeance. It's why lethal injections happen, it's why prisoners are treated like animals and/or objects, everything wrong with the prison system in America comes down to this fact: Americans don't want justice, they want vengeance.

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I don't think most Americans want vengeance, at least not to the point of being blinded to better alternatives. I think we've been so utterly conditioned that this disgusting hell system we have is "justice" that even any real reforms have to function within it's structural framework. But if you destroy that framework and instituted a proper system of justice and law here then I think people would be far less bloodthirsty.

It's a cultural and institutional creation that feeds off itself.

 

[Protome]

The American prison system continues to be one of the most terrifying parts of the country. That a lot of states still have barbaric measures like capital punishment is insane and that they are psychopaths who defend it (even in this thread!) is also terrifying.

And then the whole private prison system in general? The idea that criminals are just a resource for you to make money from is grotesque. America never got rid of slavery, just cleaned it up and called their slaves criminals instead.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

I think people forget that criminals are meant to be brought to justice, not brought to vengeance. It's why lethal injections happen, it's why prisoners are treated like animals and/or objects, everything wrong with the prison system in America comes down to this fact: Americans don't want justice, they want vengeance.

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Nah. I think they're asking for justice. What little of it you can get. Because... really nothing is "just" about the situation. What's a just punishment for someone who tortures other people/children? Is having to live in jail cell for the rest of their life just?

I really don't think talking about the death penalty abstractly is all that useful of a discussion to be honest. i.e. There's a woman in CA who kidnapped, drugged, and raped an 8 year old girl. Then put her in a suitcase and threw her in a lake to drown. What's a "just" punishment for her? She's crazy. I don't think she deserves the death penalty. She didn't get it.

But I've read of others who do far worse things, who are just psychopaths and at best don't care about, but often enjoy hurting others. Those are usually the ones I don't think don't deserve life.

 

[Westbahnhof]

You´re doing something seriously wrong if locking someone up for a few months/years until he gets executed is more expensive than locking someone up for 30, 40 or more years.

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This is so naive. How can you have cheap death sentences while attempting to make sure it only happens to the guilty?
The 1/25 number is horrifying right now (1/100 would be too high), but if you want the death penalty to be cheaper than imprisonment, get ready for loads of innocent deaths due to your greed.

And besides that, screw the cost. To protect innocents, the death penalty needs to be entirely removed from the justice system.

But I've read of others who do far worse things, who are just psychopaths and at best don't care about, but often enjoy hurting others. Those are usually the ones I don't think don't deserve life.

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You realize psychopathy is a mental disorder? How is "they're crazy" an excuse for some, and psychopathy isn't?