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Let’s Forgive Student Loan debt
- Thread starter Deleted member 22490
- Start date
I'm for the loan forgiveness plan as long as it coupled with a free/subsidized higher education plan. I'm against a one-time forgiveness with nothing else. I fail to see how that would accomplish anything useful long-term. We'd be in the same situation a decade later.
For a great many people it's not "I suffered", it's "I'm suffering still". That seems to be the part that people in this thread are missing.
There is the scenario posted earlier in this thread where someone goes for higher education, but for whatever reason isn't able to complete it, so they're left with a mountain of debt and no degree. This flies in the face of the proposal that there needs to be a net benefit to society and I get that, but I do think that's probably someone in most need of this kind of forgiveness (unless they become Bill Gates or something).
But then you have millions of Americans who don't have college loan debt who wouldn't be in line for this program who similarly could really use this money as well, much more than the recent grad who isn't making any income yet but will work his way up the ladder in a few years. So really is this an investment in the future or a handout? If it's the former your proposal makes sense to qualify the use of the degree. If it's the latter it's not broad enough to really impact the lives of the people who desperately need it.
The USDA has a guaranteed housing program in rural areas, I believe its main purpose allows people who wouldn't qualify to secure a loan.
I think less than 1 million people benefited from that program since 2008. It's a great program but even if you stretch it out nation wide I doubt it will reach more than 45 million. Since you need to be able to afford the mortgage even if you are getting assistance on it.
Unless you mean "let's give everyone property for free and you just pay property tax", that's just not a feasible program and the impact would be very uneven.
Removing student debt would improve quality of life for each of those people instantly, it wouldn't be a trickle down effect, they would suddenly have massive portions of their monthly pay check that they finally have access to, they could take so many more opportunities. It's an opportunity cost, you can either give these people a massive relief instantly with guaranteed benefits that are pretty clear, or you can implement a program that MIGHT have similar effects.
Pretty much. The "how can we pay for it" only comes up for things they won't directly benefit from
You'd think that but the moment taxes have to go up people who were for it will be against it just as quickly.
People are just going to keep repeating it as "I suffered and so should you" or "I hate the poor" without bothering to read anything the people they're mocking are actually saying, because it's more fun to argue against an evil and immoral straw man.
Exactly.
The people who say they're paid off and are fine with it also seem to express they're currently really financially stable. The people who are paid off and are distressed are primarily expressing financial instability.
I have a pretty bad credit card debt that was partially accumulated by prioritizing larger student loan payments to get that particular debt off my back as soon as possible. Massive mistake on my part, apparently, because I doubt anyone's going to offer to help with the credit cards.
Exactly.
The people who say they're paid off and are fine with it also seem to express they're currently really financially stable. The people who are paid off and are distressed are primarily expressing financial instability.
I have a pretty bad credit card debt that was partially accumulated by prioritizing larger student loan payments to get that particular debt off my back as soon as possible. Massive mistake on my part, apparently, because I doubt anyone's going to offer to help with the credit cards.
America did this before, it was indeed very VERY uneven in application
Of course it should. If you have the academic credentials for a scholarship it should be free. If you are doing public service or charity work it should be free. If you are becoming an educator it should be free. If you are working for the government it should be free. Heck, if you're going to a state college as a resident of that state it should be very cheap if not free (but in that case, loans should not be forgiven absent the aforementioned factors).
But if you only took out a loan and just want to not pay it off while working in the private sector after attending a private institution? Well... That's on you.
If loan forgiveness is available, it should go only to those who pursue public welfare. And people should also be given the opportunity to enter a field of public welfare who want to qualify.
But it shouldn't go to those who simply want to not pay their debts. Either pay with installments or pay with service.
I think being forgiven for loans by entering public service is perfectly fair. But expecting forgiveness absent that sacrifice? Sorry, but it's just a waste of money. And it doesn't do enough to benefit all of society for a plan THIS expensive.
NHS/M4A has issues because a large portion of the population has coverage and are not affected by it. So they aren't willing to sacrifice the quality/access of care they get now for others to join. The same line of reasoning applies to public education, housing etc.
I'm for universal healthcare. I'm not for this absent some additional contingencies on the work taken after completing the degree.
So lots of hoops then, if the job market wants to force everyone to have a bachelors' degree to get into the most menial of office jobs then college should be free, full stop.
Also you clearly don't understand the economic bubble all these loans are sitting on and how it will burst eventually. Then maybe you'll see how this benefits society. Or you still won't care, who can say?
No you don't get it. This could be an opportunity for people NOT to do menial work and get paid substantially in the form of loan forgiveness.
You could do meaningless work and earn 40k per year in the private sector or earn 30k per year in public service but also have 5 figures of loan forgiveness, then it actually incentivizes a shift in the job market.
People will opt for public service jobs and private employers will be forced to increase wages for entry level positions to attract talent from universities or to delegate genuinely menial low paying tasks to high school graduates who can enter the job market without needing a loan for a college degree. Forgiveness should be targeted and purposeful to incentivize more people to do work that benefits society and lower the barrier to entry level jobs in the private sector while simultaneously increasing wages for college graduates across the board.
Giving everyone a handout doesn't have that effect at all. Full stop.
School should be free but the execution has to be more well thought out and purposeful than just "you get 50k bro".
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And for the people that didn't get a degree that translates over to a government position? Is the government just expanding out an infinite amount of jobs to cater to this idea? Also, obvious joke about how the government is the home of menial jobs and that issue would only be more apparent if they did actually try to create jobs to meet this demand. Like this is an extremely silly argument and I'm amazed you don't see it.
Ah, well, Sanders and some others are pushing job guarantee over UBI so hypothetically there might be an "infinite" amount of jobs in the public sector in the future but they'll probably be menial as all hell.
Public service jobs are not the same as government jobs. Public service job = any job involving a charity or non profit as an employer. That includes hospitals, museums, schools, charities, libraries, non-.private research labs, volunteer work, etc. and yes, it includes the government too.
And yes, that is very much a large enough group to cover demand. As it is, they can't get enough people to work in hospitals alone.
In other words, through this type of program, working for a charity could be MORE profitable than working for a private employer. And more often than not, that work will be more meaningful too.
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I can't even begin to imagine what the problem could be with this.
The US has enough cash to do giant tax cuts to 1%ers so it could spare a dime or 2 to forgive student loans.
Who cares if it's good policy or not, at least more of that cash is gonna trickle down anyway.
The US has enough cash to do giant tax cuts to 1%ers so it could spare a dime or 2 to forgive student loans.
Who cares if it's good policy or not, at least more of that cash is gonna trickle down anyway.
I've been working in the hospital system for going on 10 years now across a few diffferent states. They can get plenty of workers, as is the case with most "non-profit" organizations, they are choosing to lay off workers at a higher rate while continuing to expand to cut costs while still maximizing that profit. So that anecdote is out the window with my anecdote
Meaningful work is an arbitrary idea. What's meaningful to one person means nothing to another and tying people debts to it when the debt shouldn't even have existed in the first place is wild.
It's hilarious to me that we have people that are about to (hopefully) get a reprieve saying those who did not have a "fuck you got mine" attitude. Really dawg?
Especially so when I see some posters here that argue so passionately for reparations, that they are so blinded by this issue that they can't see the similarities. Those that spent 10/15/20 years paying off their debts are affected for life, permanently, having been set back in saving for retirement/a home/etc. for just as long. It's not only logical for them to ask, "you got yours, where's mine?", but necessary for us as a society to give them aid as well, lest we lose an entire generation in a debt-caused shithole.
I'm lucky not to have ever dealt with this, as I did my undergrad overseas and therefore didn't have to deal with the US' asinine system. But some of you have to step back and see the whole picture instead of getting self-righteous over some "evil GOP" strawman.
Especially so when I see some posters here that argue so passionately for reparations, that they are so blinded by this issue that they can't see the similarities. Those that spent 10/15/20 years paying off their debts are affected for life, permanently, having been set back in saving for retirement/a home/etc. for just as long. It's not only logical for them to ask, "you got yours, where's mine?", but necessary for us as a society to give them aid as well, lest we lose an entire generation in a debt-caused shithole.
I'm lucky not to have ever dealt with this, as I did my undergrad overseas and therefore didn't have to deal with the US' asinine system. But some of you have to step back and see the whole picture instead of getting self-righteous over some "evil GOP" strawman.
I don't argue that we should tie loan forgiveness to whether work is subjectively meaningful. I argue we should tie it to whether it serves public interest which is not a subjective standard.
Hospitals may be doing great, but like you said, their workers aren't. You're arguing the same thing I am. They should have loan forgiveness.
I'm already on a income based repayment plan. My payments are like 360 or so a month. It especially sucks because I'm a government contractor. So, I work for a government agency but I don't get the government payoff period IBR. It sucks.
This will accomplish zero if it isn't paired with MAJOR tuition reform. So you forgive all the debts - which is really just making taxpayers pay for everyone's existing tuition debts, but then next week when Jimmy Joe wants to go to Uni, he takes on the same ol' debts. Doesn't seem very good to me...
Tuition reform requires:
1. Severely curtailing new student loans and
2. Pushing students towards community college and technical programs
Neither proposal is likely to be popular with students or parents (or 4-year/for-profit colleges/universities).
Instead of full forgiveness, would a reduction of 50% be more palatable for all parties? I mean someone is on the hook for the the debt, whether it be the tax payers or the loan originator. I think even reducing current loans owed by 50% in most situations would lift a lot of people up without completely gutting responsibility of the original loan holder. I think some percentage reduction would be more appropriate in that a lot of people who would be in charge of seeing this kind of bill pass would feel like 100% forgivness is the same as being completely exonerated of responsibility.
Really we need to look at more appropriate tuition options, and pricing going forward for sustainability. I think having more options for community college and making those associate degrees at a decent price is key. Giving more support of the trades and skilled labor training as well. I hate the idea that many people have of being a college graduate is the major metric for success of most people.
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Math™
Approximately a third of Americans have a bachelor's degree, meaning the vast majority of Americans have not graduated from college. Graduating from college provides tangible benefits -- like the ability to out-earn non-college educated Americans -- as well as intangible benefits -- providing graduates with a key social class indicator. Defining college graduates as anything but the top third or an elite minority would be intellectually dishonest at best.
I don't disagree, but I suppose I just don't see how this helps the situation if it's simply a one-time thing.
It's a one time loan forgiveness followed by free public postsecondary education. So that is a net positive. It is highly unlikely to pass but we arguing the merits of the proposal rather than its feasibility.
Ah, I think I missed the second part. That's what I meant by tuition reform more or less. A one time loan forgiveness only makes sense in my mind if paired with removal or serious restructuring of tuition going forward.
It's not meant to solve debt problems of the future, her policy proposal regarding college tuition addresses that.
It's a one-time thing to address a one-time debt load right now.
https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...student-debt-make-public-college-free/587683/
You can think of it as a one-shot stimulus plan, kind of like the Obama stimulus, except targeted directly at debtors.
I don't know what world you're living in but college graduates are not an elite minority, especially not in a system where some level of college is basically a requirement to get an entry-level position in most professions. You can't just look at the total population of America, see how many have gone to college, and get an accurate picture of what's going on. You certainly can't get an accurate picture of who is most affected by college loan debt.
Quantification doesn't mean anything if you don't know what you're quantifying or what the number you're pulling out really reflects. That requires actual critical, often qualitative, thinking.
I had the same thought but that figure is based on people over the age of 25. I ended up reviewing some OCED global data and I was surprised how many first world nations have even lower rates.
This is absolutely stupid. Everyone elected to take the debt themselves? So it's not the fact that post-secondary education is essentially a requirement to be able to secure a good paying job? Or the fact that not everyone is from well off backgrounds that a loan is a must to be able to progress through college?
Additionally how do you prove the whole "generation studying stupid shit"? Because where I am, I know people who are struggling to find jobs in sciences and technology and they certainly didn't study any "stupid shit." You are absolutely clueless. It's much more difficult to find careers now than it was 10-20+ years ago.
The funny thing too is you whatabouting the people who paid it off successfully. Let me ask you this, did you pay off your student loans? Or are you just whatabouting out of your ass? Because I was fortunate enough to be able to pay off my student loans in the year that I graduated (all thanks to being given way more scholarships and grants than I actually needed), and not even I care that much about "suffering" to get them paid. If anything, I'd rather the next generation never had to worry about it like I did.
By your logic, no one should be given access to new medications that would cure terminal illness because well "the other people suffered to regain their health!1!1!1!1!1!1"
No one ever said you need a relevant degree to get a government job. Have you ever actually read job announcements? Many of them say BA required. They say nothing else.
The person I had been quoting opened up his whole thing with making sure you are using your degree in an applicable field actually. So....yeah, someone did say that non-sense.
Don't @ me hours later without reading the conversation.
Yeah, me saying "total population" wasn't clear, but talking about people going to college should imply people old enough to have gone to college.
Additionally, the population of people who have completed college isn't necessarily a good proxy for people who have loans from college, since about a third of people don't even complete college.
Yep. That said, I was surprised by the low rates of tertiary (postsecondary) degrees for several first world countries that basically have free or low cost access to education.
https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/adult-education-level.htm#indicator-chart
Ok...where to start?
I'm not here to defend college tuition, etc.... I think it's ridiculously over-priced and frankly, not worth what it once was. I'm here to say that folks willingly take on this risk and there are other opportunities present. I do think that the schools themselves should have more "skin in the game" when it comes to student loans. It shouldn't be a one-sided proposition with all the chips stacked against the student. Maybe next time respond to an opinion you disagree with without incorrectly inserting yourself into that person's shoes.
Actually...yeah, they did. Nobody forced you to take on a loan. Every person who takes a loan, takes it out under the agreement that they will pay it back. It's pretty simple.
Yeah...this is false. Over half of my extended family has either started successful careers, has started their own business, or is doing pretty well for themselves without ever having gone to college. In hindsight, I'd actually have considered going the trade route if I could do it again...and I'm successfully employed in the land development & engineering sector. I've seen it work all too well for people who apply themselves the right way and act hungrily for entrepreneurial opportunities. Maybe you won't have that "high paying job" right out of the gate...but the opportunities are there. Same with schooling. Too often, many graduates assume they should be paid at equal standing to those with actual EXPERIENCE.
Again, nobody is forced to take out a loan. People should consider what factors are available at hand and make the correct decisions for their lives. Most people go to college to increase their earning potential. A student loan is an investment in the borrower, obviously b/c the type of debt and ROI for the bank, but also because the individuals are in most cases, increasing their earning potential...or should be.
I'm not clueless...but thanks for assuming you know and understand my background and situation. I graduated 2014, so not far removed from what you are describing. Secondly, I graduated from my U's college of engineering & computer sciences (FL, USA) and I'm pretty sure just about every close acquaintance of mine from school is happily employed. In fact, it was almost unheard of to not be able to find a job fresh out of school for my degree (Civil, or engineering at large for that matter). Also, in my field there is a abundance of job opportunities at the current moment due to the rising ship economy. I'm referring to folks who spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars at overpriced institutions for a humanities degree, etc. then wonder why they can't find a job due to a lack of demand or high paying positions in that field.
Since you asked me... yes, I have paid off my student loans. I too, was a recipient of my state's scholarship opportunities and this helped keep my ending balance much more reasonable. I also worked while I was in school. But thanks for personally singling out my whataboutism.
And this where irony sets in for me.... I'll have you know I actually have a potentially terminal illness that requires daily medication to combat. Because people suffered before?? So nobody can have a polio vaccine, because millions suffered & died before it was available? This isn't even an applicable analogy. Healthcare + education/job opportunities are not analogous. Without medicine, the a cure does not exist. Without college, there are still a variety of opportunities/paths. There are also such things as scholarships for those who need or qualify for them.
I'm not here to defend college tuition, etc.... I think it's ridiculously over-priced and frankly, not worth what it once was. I'm here to say that folks willingly take on this risk and there are other opportunities present. I do think that the schools themselves should have more "skin in the game" when it comes to student loans. It shouldn't be a one-sided proposition with all the chips stacked against the student. Maybe next time respond to an opinion you disagree with without incorrectly inserting yourself into that person's shoes.
Doesn't really surprise me.
For many majors there are few jobs out there that honest to god REQUIRE anything higher than Bachelors. Nothing wrong with that. Just because tuition is cheaper doesn't mean everyone will or needs to jump the gun to go to college.
The problem is for many Americans just getting that Bachelors puts you in a financial black hole and effects the entire economy with it.
I paid over $12,500 in interest payments last year on my student loans.
I agree and we really need to look into the source of student loan debts. Students who attend for-profit colleges have much higher loan default rates compared to public institutions. I just searched a few schools I know
Official Cohort Default Rate Search for Postsecondary Schools Fiscal Years 2015, 2014, 2013
For the FY2015 Cohort:
Harvard University: 1.2%
University of California Los Angeles: 1.8%
University of Southern California: 1.8%
California State University Los Angeles: 5.4%
Devry University: 11.2%
University of Phoenix: 12.3%
Headwinds for graduate student borrowers: Rising balances and slowing repayment rates
As for partial forgiveness, I think a policy could be crafted that's more politically viable and benefit some students more than the Warren proposal. IMO, her policy has no chance of passing, but is a good opener to start talking about the student loan problem.
Perhaps a 50% reduction, $50,000 max and refinancing the remainder over 20 years at the 20 year Treasury rate (currently 2.81%).
Student 1 has $30,000* of debt at 6.00% interest over ten years and currently pays $333.06/month.
Student 2 has $120,000 of debt at 6.00% interest over ten years and currently pays $1,332.25/month.
Under the Warren plan:
Student 1 pays $0.00/month
Student 2 has $70,000 remaining debt and pays $777.14/month
Under alternative plan:
Student 1 has $15,000 of debt at 2.81% interest over twenty years and pays $81.77/month.
Student 2 has $70,000 of debt at 2.81% interest over twenty years and pays $381.59/month.
The numbers can be modified up or down to fit budget and program goals. What about 70% reduction with $70,000 max?
Student 1 has $9,000 of debt at 2.81% interest over twenty years and pays $49.06/month.
Student 2 has $50,000 of debt at 2.81% interest over twenty years and pays $272.57/month.
*I chose $30,000 because quick Google search had:
A Look at the Shocking Student Loan Debt Statistics for 2019
And I used $120,000 because the Warren plan has a cap of $50,000, and wanted to illustrate a meaningful difference with the alternative plan.
I'd also set a floor and forgive the first $5,000, or better yet $10,000 of debt regardless of the 50% percentage. Why?
Who Are Student Loan Defaulters?
Yes the plan I brought up is complicated and isn't a clean $50,000 forgiveness. But some variation might be the better plan.
Now for the funding mechanism, don't do a wealth tax! It's a massive pain to implement and the IRS will not be able to effectively enforce it. Tax the rich, sure, but don't make taxpayers value and report their assets annually. That'll create a nightmare for the tax courts.
It wouldn't even pass if Democrats/liberals held every office in our govt.
No, I mean the people that have it and have not used it. Would they get that money back or would the government keep it is the question.
Seems like an edge case but the government would probably keep.
It would be just part of the process, probably, where to qualify for forgiveness you need to submit academic records, bills from the school and bank records.
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Yeah, it's a terrible position to take. I worked my ass off to keep a high GPA so I didn't lose my 100% Bright Futures scholarship,
but everyone else getting a break after the fact doesn't affect me in the slightest.