We'll have to agree to disagree that lack of intention makes harm "fine". Moving on!
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"Lessons I learned switching from games journalism to development"
- Thread starter OCD Guy
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We'll have to agree to disagree that lack of intention makes harm "fine". Moving on!
Is the "killer analysis" not for the buying public rather than the developer? If the developers know the aspects about their game that sucks, that's fine. The consumer should know too.
Yep, consumers should always know what they are buying (if they want to know).
I would love to see a dev post before a release of their game to tell me what parts are bad. That would be refreshing to say the least. Good read otherwise though.
Technically it could be marketing if they played up the bad parts and said "Now that we got those out of the way, look at all this good shit!"
Not sure I'd recommend that, but it is not impossible.
This part:
That particular excerpt reads as if they believe journalists are pointing out a game's flaws to the devs with their work, when the obvious reality is that they're doing so to their public.
The part about DLCs is very interesting, though. I'd love to hear about some of the DLC that's completed somewhere out there but will never see the light of day.
Is very confusing. What sort of work does this person do in games journalism if they don't believe in "pointing out which parts [of a game] suck"?
That particular excerpt reads as if they believe journalists are pointing out a game's flaws to the devs with their work, when the obvious reality is that they're doing so to their public.
The part about DLCs is very interesting, though. I'd love to hear about some of the DLC that's completed somewhere out there but will never see the light of day.
Whatever you would like to call it. I was just commenting on the "devs know which part of their game is bad" part. So...honest marketing? You be the judge.
Wouldn't a lot of toxic comments be prevented if developers were honest and released the list of all known bugs and issues when they release their game?
Actually I can see that generating more toxic or product damaging response, you don't go out and just dump your bug database to public.
Yeah, my perspective on video games and the insane amount of work that goes into them definitely changed when I started working in the industry almost two decades ago now.
I've said as much before, but no dev sets out to make a bad game, and there are so, so, so many moving parts when putting a game together, that sometimes the end result isn't what the devs intended, but it was the best they could do with the time, budget, resources, and myriad of other complications that often arise when making video games.
It doesn't mean that games are immune from criticism, or that you can't/shouldn't criticize games. But I will say that no one knows the game better than the people that made it, and just being able to see one through to completion is a monumental task. It definitely stings when something you've worked so hard on comes out sub-par, especially if part of the reasons are things that were out of your control.
We always have post mortems about the games that we make, and we often comb through the game with a fine toothed comb before it even releases, but definitely after, and taking real stock on what worked, what didn't work, and what we can do better next go round.
Constructive criticism is always welcome, and genuinely useful. Like, just saying, "Game is garbage," or "Game is GOTY" isn't really that helpful. I know I always enjoy reading in depth discussions about why gamers like/dislike a game, or certain aspects of a game.
Also, devs are gamers too. When possible (work most certainly gets in the way from time to time), we play as many games as we can, and discuss the ones we love in the office, or on Slack/etc, and also look at the games we play with our own critical eye, gleaning what we can about the things we like/loved about it, as well as the things we disliked/hated about the game. It's this mix of enjoying a game for the fun of it, and also analyzing it and breaking it down on a design level.
The way I play games, and perceive games, has totally been changed, that's for sure.
I've said as much before, but no dev sets out to make a bad game, and there are so, so, so many moving parts when putting a game together, that sometimes the end result isn't what the devs intended, but it was the best they could do with the time, budget, resources, and myriad of other complications that often arise when making video games.
It doesn't mean that games are immune from criticism, or that you can't/shouldn't criticize games. But I will say that no one knows the game better than the people that made it, and just being able to see one through to completion is a monumental task. It definitely stings when something you've worked so hard on comes out sub-par, especially if part of the reasons are things that were out of your control.
We always have post mortems about the games that we make, and we often comb through the game with a fine toothed comb before it even releases, but definitely after, and taking real stock on what worked, what didn't work, and what we can do better next go round.
Constructive criticism is always welcome, and genuinely useful. Like, just saying, "Game is garbage," or "Game is GOTY" isn't really that helpful. I know I always enjoy reading in depth discussions about why gamers like/dislike a game, or certain aspects of a game.
Also, devs are gamers too. When possible (work most certainly gets in the way from time to time), we play as many games as we can, and discuss the ones we love in the office, or on Slack/etc, and also look at the games we play with our own critical eye, gleaning what we can about the things we like/loved about it, as well as the things we disliked/hated about the game. It's this mix of enjoying a game for the fun of it, and also analyzing it and breaking it down on a design level.
The way I play games, and perceive games, has totally been changed, that's for sure.
Crunch will just adapt to a new schedule of ridiculous demands. This is just how exploitation of labour works, someone thinks it's cuter to make obscene money faster, a whole group gets to crunch in order to pay a rent with no other choice.
It's an interesting read. I hope these insights helps to cut down on the 'lazy dev' and 'why didn't they just do X or Y' nonsense. That's never called for and reality is always more complicated and nuanced than what it looks like from the peanut gallery or the armchair.
But some of the points he raises apply to every piece of art. Nobody cares if a ballerina spent 6 months recovering from an injury when she misses a vol and bumps into the chorus line. Nobody cares if a magician spent years training his hand muscles to perfect a certain sleight if the trick he performs doesn't fool. Nobody cares that the drummer of a band didn't have enough space to setup how he would've liked if he messes up the tempo. Nobody cares that a writer struggled through depression and writer's block if his novel is full of overwrought and cliched language.
As a collective, audiences are never charitable to artists. The play is the thing. The only thing. A work stands or falls on its own merits and if the artists saw the dud coming a mile away, they have my deepest sympathy but it doesn't shield the work from criticism. At least they got paid for their hours of effort, unlike most artists who only get rewarded for their pain if their art finds an audience. It reminds me of Troy Baker pretentiously quoting 'the man in the arena' at a journalist who dared suggest a structural problem with AAA videogame design.
The bottom line is that we should always assume the artists had the best intentions and that they didn't set out to deliberately annoy their players, even if they fall short of their dreams.
But some of the points he raises apply to every piece of art. Nobody cares if a ballerina spent 6 months recovering from an injury when she misses a vol and bumps into the chorus line. Nobody cares if a magician spent years training his hand muscles to perfect a certain sleight if the trick he performs doesn't fool. Nobody cares that the drummer of a band didn't have enough space to setup how he would've liked if he messes up the tempo. Nobody cares that a writer struggled through depression and writer's block if his novel is full of overwrought and cliched language.
As a collective, audiences are never charitable to artists. The play is the thing. The only thing. A work stands or falls on its own merits and if the artists saw the dud coming a mile away, they have my deepest sympathy but it doesn't shield the work from criticism. At least they got paid for their hours of effort, unlike most artists who only get rewarded for their pain if their art finds an audience. It reminds me of Troy Baker pretentiously quoting 'the man in the arena' at a journalist who dared suggest a structural problem with AAA videogame design.
The bottom line is that we should always assume the artists had the best intentions and that they didn't set out to deliberately annoy their players, even if they fall short of their dreams.
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Not only that, but it also uses a "you can't criticize our work because (insert excuses)", which is a childish rhetoric. Gaming media sometimes looks like it just started existing yesterday and only praises are allowed.
Nobody wants to make a bad game/movie/art/etc. on purpose and most of the time the creator is the biggest critic you find. They just won't say anything in public, because it is bad marketing. Unless some product is a clear cash grab or has bad intention, critics and consumers should look at any finished product with soem respect. Since it is hard to create anything.
Ahhh sometimes there is incompetents involved, but not on all levels. Like you giving some work to an employee, who sucks and is just part of the company, because this person has some good connection. You hope they don't fuck it up ... and they fuck it up. You don't have the time to change it and just hope, it will not matter in the larger scale. Politics are sadly part of any company.
Products need criticism. They are selling a product or many would argue producing a piece of art. "Gamer" discourse is usually over the top and disgusting, but I don't think acting like patches are expensive is any excuse to except a broken product, particularly when you're usually paying £40-50 for it. Even indie games can be pretty expensive for the time you get out them.
If he's saying the hardships of game development should be factors into reviews or opinions on them then I disagree. As a potential buyer I want to know if the game I'm getting is going work properly. This sounds it should be directed more towards working conditions in the video game industry rather than essentially saying "be nice they've worked hard". Sure to should be respectful but not give a free pass if something is broken or opinion is that it isn't fun etc.
If he's saying the hardships of game development should be factors into reviews or opinions on them then I disagree. As a potential buyer I want to know if the game I'm getting is going work properly. This sounds it should be directed more towards working conditions in the video game industry rather than essentially saying "be nice they've worked hard". Sure to should be respectful but not give a free pass if something is broken or opinion is that it isn't fun etc.
" real people made the game you're critiquing. Show some respect. "
thats a fair point, one id like to echo as well.
but these days half the games are filled with predatory mtx, and im not sure how much respect i can show for those.
thats a fair point, one id like to echo as well.
but these days half the games are filled with predatory mtx, and im not sure how much respect i can show for those.
These are all points anyone who listens to devs will be familiar with. Also they are self-evident with a the power of critical thinking and an iota of empathy.
I somewhat agree. As a consumer I don't have the knowledge devs have but... should I care?
I feel he is championing "the industry" too much with his posts. Can you Imagine as a consumer in any other industry having to wait close to half a year after release to have your product in a decent state?
Example: I pre ordered horizon zero dawn on pc just to support the pc ports initiative as soon as the game was available. It released in August.. totally broken. To this day the game is not as polished as the console version, even if Guerilla patches the game every few weeks.
It's common practice at least on pc to wait 3 to 6 months after release to have your game patched up. Not sure how consumers can put up with that other than criticizing or delaying the purchase.
I feel he is championing "the industry" too much with his posts. Can you Imagine as a consumer in any other industry having to wait close to half a year after release to have your product in a decent state?
Example: I pre ordered horizon zero dawn on pc just to support the pc ports initiative as soon as the game was available. It released in August.. totally broken. To this day the game is not as polished as the console version, even if Guerilla patches the game every few weeks.
It's common practice at least on pc to wait 3 to 6 months after release to have your game patched up. Not sure how consumers can put up with that other than criticizing or delaying the purchase.
People are quick to judge that decisions affecting financial obligations are the same as what the actual developers who work on the them (design/code/art/audio/animations/etc) want for their products.
Game released too soon with buggy content isn't mostly lazy devs, that attitude needs to change. People obviously read a lot of news about overtime, working long unpaid hours, contract workers who aren't treated at the same level as headcount employees, etc, these aren't done to structure a buggy product, but to meet those deadlines (hopefully towards a cleaner one) so that the product is profitable.
Time, people and money (in no particular order) are the huge constraints for a bug free product, but unfortunately you don't have unlimited resources nor a blank check.
Game released too soon with buggy content isn't mostly lazy devs, that attitude needs to change. People obviously read a lot of news about overtime, working long unpaid hours, contract workers who aren't treated at the same level as headcount employees, etc, these aren't done to structure a buggy product, but to meet those deadlines (hopefully towards a cleaner one) so that the product is profitable.
Time, people and money (in no particular order) are the huge constraints for a bug free product, but unfortunately you don't have unlimited resources nor a blank check.