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OCD Guy

Member
Nov 2, 2017
985
I came across a thread on Twitter from someone called Andy Robinson. In the past he worked for Playtonic games and posted a substantial amount of tweets highlighting lessons he's learned, some of which I thought were quite interesting.

I did do a search but nothing obvious came up in the search results.

Here are a few snippets:







Perhaps the one that really made me think twice about harshly berating a game:








The full thread is here:

 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
Idk why people think devs aspire to make bad games, especially when doing so inAAA means endless work weeks and death threats from fans
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
All good points but fortunately I have no intent on working in the games industry directly so if I feel something is bad then I still won't have any problem making a 'killer analysis' on it or trying to sugar coat it.
 

Rocky Road

Member
Jun 1, 2018
899
Yeah, this is why I roll my eyes whenever I see extremely harsh or smarmy critiques of indie games. People that worked on a game almost always know what the issues are, and nobody who puts up with the typical development cycle of a full game would ever want to make a bad game at the end of all their efforts involving preproduction, development, spending money to hire people to fill in the aspects they can't do themselves (like music), etc. People who make games these days make them because they want to make them. Unless you're looking at a cheap gag game or some of the shovelware quick buck phone apps on Switch's eShop, remember that you're experiencing someone's passion project that they're sharing with you. I'm working on more than one project myself right now but honestly even looking back at some of the silly freeware fangames I made as a teen, I would always be relieved seeing good feedback after months of agonizing over reception despite the amount of work I put in.

EDIT: Let me just specify that you should critique games if they're not good for being not good, but often critiques turn into nitpicks more than anything meaningful, especially with some of the things AAA games get away with that people normally tear indie games up over. Just be mindful when you do and actually know what you're talking about so you can put it into words. Unless someone is actively trying to scam you with their games think about what you can say that will help them improve their game or make better ones. Not every passion project will end up inherently good obviously but if someone is serious about what they're doing they'll be willing to try again or adapt to make it good.
 
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eraFROMAN

One Winged Slayer
Member
Mar 12, 2019
2,874
This is all true. I can bet you Bethesda knows their engine is crusty; it's very likely not the dev teams decision to continue using it, for example. They know their combat is kind of bad, so they got Machine Games to help on Fallout 4. Games are HARD to make.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,082
A few new details to keep in mind for future discussions there, enlightening as always when the devs dunk on my puny "knowledge" of how I assume things work.

I can at least tell the guy that their second game was tops.
 

Monarch1501

Designer @ Dontnod
Verified
Nov 2, 2017
161
It's kind of depressing sometime to have a better understanding of what doesn't work in your game than to be able to see if it will be well received when it releases.
 

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396
I think there's a lot of Dunning-Kruger to be seen in how fans criticize games, especially from a technical/systems side. It's easy to type something out on Twitter, Reddit, or ERA, post it, and move on with your life. But it's also a part of a larger online discourse that devs almost certainly keep tabs on. I'm not saying all games should be above criticism, but it's only fair to present it in a constructive way or as an opinion.
 

Tater

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,583
The worst is watching the comments on message boards when people say "Why can't company X just implement feature Y? All they have to do code it up like this!" Until you've been through the process you don't know all of the dependencies and issues that make that "simple" change much trickier.

When I did game development, I was working on a mini game in my spare time to add to the game. At one point, the producer found out and told me to stop. She was like "I appreciate your passion, but if you put that in the game, it's now a feature that we have to support - it'll eat up QA time, artist time and potentially other engineers will need to maintain that in the future. We have a process for adding features, if you sneak that in it's going to take time away from something that is more important".

A similar project also had us required to use a third party service for a core feature. When that implementation crashed and burned, we couldn't say anything about it, other than watch the forums (rightfully) get pissed off about something we didn't cause.
 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
The worst is watching the comments on message boards when people say "Why can't company X just implement feature Y? All they have to do code it up like this!" Until you've been through the process you don't know all of the dependencies and issues that make that "simple" change much trickier.

When I did game development, I was working on a mini game in my spare time to add to the game. At one point, the producer found out and told me to stop. She was like "I appreciate your passion, but if you put that in the game, it's now a feature that we have to support - it'll eat up QA time, artist time and potentially other engineers will need to maintain that in the future. We have a process for adding features, if you sneak that in it's going to take time away from something that is more important".

A similar project also had us required to use a third party service for a core feature. When that implementation crashed and burned, we couldn't say anything about it, other than watch the forums (rightfully) get pissed off about something we didn't cause.
Jesus. I would literally never offer/recommend/make another feature or mini game or anything ever again.
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505
Then should/can consumers critic anything? Most of these apply to many other products.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,172
Mars
His point about day one patches feels overly optimistic, especially when looking at tentpole GaaS games that almost always launch with tons of issues. Was Anthem's day one patch really just about making the experience better and not used to finish things or push features?

Love threads like these that get into development stories and wisdom and dispel common misconceptions.
 
May 21, 2018
2,020
We sure as hell can criticize devs, but we should do it for the right kind of devs. Not the artists, programmers, and QA and other main development team, but the imbecile upper management that squander time and treat their teams like shit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,642
Then should/can consumers critic anything? Most of these apply to many other products.

Not all commentary is just critic. There is often additional unpleasant energy that gets thrown into the mix and a lot of that is just unnecessary. (Not point the finger at you specifically btw)



This one should be required reading imo and should show up when you sign up for an account on Era. Certain games in particular could do with a lot less of the vitriol people have for them. If a thing doesn't work out for you or conform to your expectations, then people need to learn to just write it off as being unfortunate that it didn't align with what they would have wanted and keep it moving.
 

Tater

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,583
Jesus. I would literally never offer/recommend/make another feature or mini game or anything ever again.

That's how I felt, but once I stepped away for a bit, I saw that she was right.

We had designers and product managers trying to make the best game we could within our budget (this was an MMO). If I added my mini game just for fun, I was committing project resources without giving those people a chance to determine what would work the best. In short, I was redirecting manpower from other parts of the game to add to my pet project.

Still sucked, though.
 

Deleted member 79517

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 31, 2020
472
As a teacher, I sympathize with developers who get annoyed at people making critiques of your work with little to no understanding.

That said, I think it's just as weird to say "no devs are (insert critique)" as it is to say "all devs are (insert critique )." Some developers deserve criticism! I think the key is to not be a jerk about it (which I know is his last point; he saved the best for last).
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505
If a thing doesn't work out for you or conform to your expectations, then people need to learn to just write it off as being unfortunate that it didn't align with what they would have wanted and keep it moving.

Just write it off... Really? How many people can just write it off $60? If the game were bought digital, it can't even be returned if you missing the 2hour window.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I think with more transparency from the industry you might see some improvement. If more people knew how games are really made then they'd probably be less toxic when it's a disappointment or with delays. Obviously things have gotten better since the 90's but I think there is a long way to go.

Plus it'd help if marketing departments didn't act like every AAA release is the second coming.

Obviously this wouldn't help the crazies that go too far, but maybe it'd cut down on off the cuff "lazy devs" remarks.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
Speaking as a developer, I totally respect the incredible difficulties and logistical hurdles involved. I've dealt with hundreds of issues that didn't get fixed or caused insane headaches down the line, and I encourage all consumers to learn more about the development process. It's super interesting!

But the snarky "you're not providing any killer analysis by pointing out they suck" smarm...no. Reviewers aren't there to be nice, they're to educate consumers if this product is worth their hard-earned dollars and time. Proper criticism has a very important place in any artistic medium, and the critics hold no responsibility to the developers to be understanding of complex processes that may have resulted in a subpar product. If it's bad, it's bad, and people should know about it.
 

Phendrana

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,048
Melbourne, Australia
I feel like most of this is obvious? Nobody sets out to make a bad movie or song or anything, either.

Understanding that shouldn't really affect your criticism of a product.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
Honestly, none of that really takes a back of the store view to get.

Realizing that the people who you are critiquing are real people and that they do not set out to make garbage is a lesson you can learn from basic human decency.

What I am saying is that while I am super happy this person was afforded the opportunity to learn these lessons and grow, but you do not need them to be better.

All that aside, it is good to remember to criticize bad art or products as bad art or products, regardless of the awesome humans which produced them. Also good to remember that sometimes less than awesome humans make good art or products and they should also be criticized.
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505


About the third party stuff. When was last time you remember, after a successful game launch, a dev came out and said, "oh, no no no, that's wasn't us, that's all unreal engine's work. Please, give praise to them."? Like never? So why should the dev not take the blame when a 3rd party product failed?
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,547
I remember back in the 360 days learning how expensive title updates were. Didn't MS charge tens of thousands after the first one minimum just in fees? I can't imagine anything like that is still in place considering the 30% cut. It's why only the most successful arcade games got updates and gotfixes were only for the most extreme cases
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,642
Just write it off... Really? How many people can just write it off $60? If the game were bought digital, it can't even be returned if you missing the 2hour window.
I'm sure you know I don't mean make the disc a coaster and wipe it from your mind. If you are disappointed then there is nothing wrong with that at all — but there is definitely a level at which people take that too far and into a place where they completely forget that the people on the other end of that product are people just like them.

$60 might feel like a lot but all it buys you is a copy of the game. It doesn't buy anyone there right to hurl some of the abuse you see at developers or the shtty energy people put out in the way they talk about the teams who still laboured over a product to make it what it was.

I remember back in the 360 days learning how expensive title updates were. Didn't MS charge tens of thousands after the first one minimum just in fees? I can't imagine anything like that is still in place right? Considering the 30% cut.
Yep. It was the Infamous Fez save data bug that brought all of that to light iirc. At the time people were like "I don't get why Fish doesn't just fix it" until details started leaking about about how updates work and certification costs.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
This one should be required reading imo and should show up when you sign up for an account on Era. Certain games in particular could do with a lot less of the vitriol people have for them. If a thing doesn't work out for you or conform to your expectations, then people need to learn to just write it off as being unfortunate that it didn't align with what they would have wanted and keep it moving.
What does the above mean exactly? Not pointing fingers and I largely agree with the sentiment that you need to scrub unpleasant attitudes from critisms but what does this actually mean for fans or haters ? Every single game in existence has lovers, even those who are widely panned as bad. Does that mean that people shouldn't point out the issues those games have and just move on?

At what point do you move on? And also doesn't moving on invalidate pretty much every form of player feedback? Like I understand that you're aware of the game has an issue and you don't want to hear it, but from a buyer perspective the fact that my enjoyment has been impacted by the issue(issue has to be reasonable) makes it something worth discussing IMO.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,596
There's what, half a dozen iterations on 'Screw Game Company X' on the front page every damn day, sometimes the reason is actually valid.

When there's a small but steady increase in 'this is why game x sucks' comments among those discussions, we end up legitimising the negative and toxic arguments which are always in bad faith.

Remember before the internet and a really popular movie had a clear and unmissable onscreen goof? Imagine if we were around on here like this back then.
 

a Question

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,218
This reminds of an email from Dave lang to Giant Bomb.

Giant Bomb had a segment "Please stop" on GOTY (dont remember for which year) one of the contenders for "Please stop" was criticism of often and heavy pathches updates.

Some weeks later crew read Dave lang's letter on Bombcast where Dave explained the why there are so many patches with sarcastic "You can always sent a text to ask assholes" (phrased differently)
 

ezekial45

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,742
I appreciate his insight, but I feel these tweets are giving off "stop criticizing the hard work of developers" energy. At the end of the day it's a commercial product that's going to be sold to a wide audience of people with different interests, and that absolutely opens it up to wide forms of valid criticism.

No one obviously goes out to make a bad game, but when a certain vision for a game has certain creative choices that result in artistic or technical limitations, than that absolutely needs to be addressed.
 
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Remark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,542
Off topic but I want to get into games journalism but I don't know how to write articles.

I write at a 6th grade level deadass.
 

Tobor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,422
Richmond, VA
Speaking as a developer, I totally respect the incredible difficulties and logistical hurdles involved. I've dealt with hundreds of issues that didn't get fixed or caused insane headaches down the line, and I encourage all consumers to learn more about the development process. It's super interesting!

But the snarky "you're not providing any killer analysis by pointing out they suck" smarm...no. Reviewers aren't there to be nice, they're to educate consumers if this product is worth their hard-earned dollars and time. Proper criticism has a very important place in any artistic medium, and the critics hold no responsibility to the developers to be understanding of complex processes that may have resulted in a subpar product. If it's bad, it's bad, and people should know about it.

Yeah. I don't get that. What does he expect the critic to do? Not point out the shitty part of a game because the developer theoretically knows it is shit? As a consumer, I want to know. I'm trying to make a purchase decision. The devs feelings don't enter into it.

If the reveiwer isn't pointing it out, he is doing a disservice to the customer.
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
505
I'm sure you know I don't mean make the disc a coaster and wipe it from your mind. If you are disappointed then there is nothing wrong with that at all — but there is definitely a level at which people take that too far and into a place where they completely forget that the people on the other end of that product are people just like them.

$60 might feel like a lot but all it buys you is a copy of the game. It doesn't buy anyone there right to hurl some of the abuse you see at developers or the shtty energy people put out in the way they talk about the teams who still laboured over a product to make it what it was.

In OP, he talked about 5 points: 1) dev knows the game's problems already (therefore no need to say anything?) 2) 3rd party's fault (so, "not my fault") 3) day one patch 4) DLC is hard 5) be respectful in general. Only number 5 is related to your point. The other 4, tbh, sounds like he is looking for excuses. Even for the 5th point, I respect devs (and actually any one I talk to) at the basic human level, that is, no personal attack, no name calling, etc., basically, be civil. but at the professional level, I won't have much respect to a dev just wasted my $60. If my $60 dinner come out half raw and half burnt, I am not gonna have a pleasant conversation with the chef.

Also, what's worse, knowingly shipping a product with lesser quality, or unknowingly doing so?
 
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riq

Member
Feb 21, 2019
1,687
Speaking as a developer, I totally respect the incredible difficulties and logistical hurdles involved. I've dealt with hundreds of issues that didn't get fixed or caused insane headaches down the line, and I encourage all consumers to learn more about the development process. It's super interesting!

But the snarky "you're not providing any killer analysis by pointing out they suck" smarm...no. Reviewers aren't there to be nice, they're to educate consumers if this product is worth their hard-earned dollars and time. Proper criticism has a very important place in any artistic medium, and the critics hold no responsibility to the developers to be understanding of complex processes that may have resulted in a subpar product. If it's bad, it's bad, and people should know about it.
Yep. Critics are not reviewing stuff to provide devs with feedback, so I don't get what "devs know when their games suck" changes.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
Yeah, that's all pretty agreeable.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing a game, I love to do that and the best feedback I've ever gotten has been among the most critical.

At the same time, it's incredibly easy to criticize a game without ascribing ignorance, laziness, or malice to the developers behind it. You wouldn't think so going by some posters.
 

MonadL

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,888
I appreciate his insight, but I feel these tweets are giving off "stop criticizing the hard work of developers" energy. At the end of the day it's a commercial product that's going to be sold to a wide audience of people with different interests, and that absolutely opens it up to wide forms of valid criticism.

No one obviously goes out to make a bad game, but when a certain vision for a game has certain creative choices that result in artistic or technical limitations, than that absolutely needs to be addressed.
I disagree. I think it's more wishing gamers would quit acting like psychotic man children whenever a dev puts out something less than stellar but maybe I'm wrong.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,639
This is why even if I'll criticise a game or point out an annoying bug, I understand that it probably takes 50 people and one long process just to fix something so simple.

I remember reading a comment from a Dev on how even implementing an additional option in the menu would require localising into multiple languages and QA to ensure that it hasn't broken something.

Can only imagine how many times breath of the wild broke because of the physics engine.
 

Dylan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,260
I dunno, his thread reads as if his audience is game developers as opposed to the general public.

Of course the devs know why their games suck, but the average reader probably doesn't; so it still makes sense to criticize it.

I remember Jeff Green essentially made all these points years ago on a podcast, but he also said if he could go back, he wouldn't change how he criticized games because at the end of the day the writing still serves a specific purpose for the consumer/enthusiast who's reading it.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,402
I disagree. I think it's more wishing gamers would quit acting like psychotic man children whenever a dev puts out something less than stellar but maybe I'm wrong.

Then don't create a product for man children. Your consumers are going to respond as they see fit. Gamers can be extremely toxic and YouTube, Reddit and other forums are proof of this.
 

G-X

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,342
OCD Guy

Nice username. I also have extreme OCD.

Also, agreed with much of the points raised.


Exactly.
we should just make an OCD the thread! the thread!....the thread! the thread!

being someone about to turn 40 also with a long history of severe OCD, be nice to have a place with like minded people

anyway less OT - while I agree with the points on this all around, especially that you shouldn't treat the developers like they are intentionally making a bad product, also there is a point to realize that on the game writer/journalist side they are their to educate their base, and part of that is to inform them of issues with a particular game.

how they frame that goes a long way. but i usually don't see outlets out there saying "developer Hydrox hates you so they left these bugs in" or "Hydrox is lazy and hasn't fixed these bugs". Then again the number of outlets I actually go to now days grows smaller by the year, so that may be part of it, but I tend to hear most of that rhetoric from the youtube or stream commenter crowd where I honestly don't go there for anything other then to "look" at something because that's what PR agencies value now, or if I'm looking up something for a game I'm playing.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Eh, I get what he's going for, but I think a lot of these don't really make much sense. This, for instance:



Those critiques aren't for the developers, so it's kind of irrelevant whether developers are or aren't aware those parts of their game suck or whatever. Those kind of criticisms are either directed towards consumers or for the overall discussion about the quality of the game. It feels more like he's wanting to put any kind of product above any type of criticism because of the manpower behind it. Which, I kind of get since he apparently did work there for awhile, but everything bad on any kind of mass produced level had some degree of manpower behind it.
 

danhz

Member
Apr 20, 2018
3,231

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Yeah, this is why I roll my eyes whenever I see extremely harsh or smarmy critiques of indie games. People that worked on a game almost always know what the issues are, and nobody who puts up with the typical development cycle of a full game would ever want to make a bad game at the end of all their efforts involving preproduction, development, spending money to hire people to fill in the aspects they can't do themselves (like music), etc. People who make games these days make them because they want to make them. Unless you're looking at a cheap gag game or some of the shovelware quick buck phone apps on Switch's eShop, remember that you're experiencing someone's passion project that they're sharing with you. I'm working on more than one project myself right now but honestly even looking back at some of the silly freeware fangames I made as a teen, I would always be relieved seeing good feedback after months of agonizing over reception despite the amount of work I put in.
As someone who has had contact with a a handfull of indie devs...no, not everybody of them knows why their game is bad, or why something does not work. Its their child, they worked with a limited perspectiv for a long time on the game, and lack ....perspective in a lot of cases. And some are just on an egotrip.

Then you have those that are painfully aware of the shortcomings, but need to get them out to eat something. No problem with them, i get the problem.But i want play games just so that people can eat if they are not good enough to be fun to play.

And then you have the teams that have the funds/ambition to push it farther than most, and they bring the great indies. But people often have no idea how long and expensive some of those can be to make.

(also there is a nix between 2 and 3, where they need to push it out, but investt a lot of time afterwards to finish the game... i think blasphemeus was one of those where the team fixed most of the criticisms...or No Mans Sky)

And if we are not talking about indie devs:
There is a kompletly different dynamic in traditionallyproduced games. Developers and publishers/producers/suits. Ofthen the developers know what works and what not, but have people in charge that are aiming for some metrics, buzzwords, etc, or are working under someone that just has a bad taste (Other Ms Story...).

So while in most teams most of the stuff he said is true, there are still bad actors, people with lack of perspective, just bad gamedesign etc to be found, that is not contributed to "lack of time or money".

But most "game criticism" is just plain stupid, shure.
(But if im criticising Pokemon Shiled for its unfinished game, its not that im specifically criticising the developers, i know that they probably had way more ideas and bigger ambitions. No, its the higher ups that wanted this project to be released in a too short period, and pushed the team to cut everything that wasnt done and could be cut. They needed to do for the multimedia push? yeah...no. Looking at other RPGs, it was even without setbacks a to short period of development, when you also have to move to HD development like all other developers have done years ago)
 

Booshka

Banned
May 8, 2018
3,957
Colton, CA
Speaking as a developer, I totally respect the incredible difficulties and logistical hurdles involved. I've dealt with hundreds of issues that didn't get fixed or caused insane headaches down the line, and I encourage all consumers to learn more about the development process. It's super interesting!

But the snarky "you're not providing any killer analysis by pointing out they suck" smarm...no. Reviewers aren't there to be nice, they're to educate consumers if this product is worth their hard-earned dollars and time. Proper criticism has a very important place in any artistic medium, and the critics hold no responsibility to the developers to be understanding of complex processes that may have resulted in a subpar product. If it's bad, it's bad, and people should know about it.
Agreed, and it's why I value really well thought out criticism even more. Back in the days listening to Shawn Elliot on the Brodeo shit on a game was both funny and probably valid. Developers are not above critique because they also know parts of their game suck, they got paid to make it, and people spent time and or money to play it. Respectful and valid criticism has a place, shitpost frothing at the mouth and death threats obviously don't.

If the public didn't have the type of outcry toward games, then the upper management that probably led to those poor decisions wouldn't task the developers with changing it.
 

HebrewHammer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,524
Chicago
That part apart boxed games needing to be finalized months in advance is a valid one that I always took for granted.

Maybe an all digital future helps alleviate crunch a bit?

Perhaps wishful thinking on my part. We'll always find a way to crunch when timelines are even more lax.