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In order to beat all of the AOE that TLC has as an "aggro" deck you'd have to either be playing one of the aggro lists that naturally has lots of resistance to it built in like Azir Noxus or Nightfall, or you'd have to swap out so many cards that you're really not playing aggro anymore and are playing a midrange list instead. Decks like Discard don't have enough flex options in their deck to build their list to reliably stand a chance vs TLC.
Warmother's Call and Commander Ledros have been in the game since day 0, Maokai and Deep overall was added in the first expansion, FTR is largely unbeatable unless you invoke Supernova or have a counter, 7-10 Celestials in general are extremely hard to stop when you have your pick of which one you want to go for. Difficult to interact with wincons have been a part of the game since the beginning, and outside of the decks who have no wincon besides getting something off Starshaping most of the control and slower midrange lists that exist currently don't have that bad of MUs vs TLC. While the combo is definitely quicker than the things I listed, it also requires a deck built around it whereas all the things I listed are single card win conditions. While it is probably the most efficient inevitable wincon we've had so far, it's far from the only one and most the control decks that currently exist have the ability to potentially go underneath it with good draws. And the deck is pretty difficult to pilot effectively, so it's much less of an issue at lower levels.
TLC was about as good pre-expansion and it won 0 Regional tournaments. The competitive meta is more than capable of shifting around it assuming it becomes too popular as there's plenty of decks that have good matchups vs it. The deck is good but there's always going to be a tier 1 deck and TLC has already shown that the meta can evolve to beat it.
Warmother's Call and Commander Ledros have been in the game since day 0, Maokai and Deep overall was added in the first expansion, FTR is largely unbeatable unless you invoke Supernova or have a counter, 7-10 Celestials in general are extremely hard to stop when you have your pick of which one you want to go for. Difficult to interact with wincons have been a part of the game since the beginning, and outside of the decks who have no wincon besides getting something off Starshaping most of the control and slower midrange lists that exist currently don't have that bad of MUs vs TLC. While the combo is definitely quicker than the things I listed, it also requires a deck built around it whereas all the things I listed are single card win conditions. While it is probably the most efficient inevitable wincon we've had so far, it's far from the only one and most the control decks that currently exist have the ability to potentially go underneath it with good draws. And the deck is pretty difficult to pilot effectively, so it's much less of an issue at lower levels.
TLC was about as good pre-expansion and it won 0 Regional tournaments. The competitive meta is more than capable of shifting around it assuming it becomes too popular as there's plenty of decks that have good matchups vs it. The deck is good but there's always going to be a tier 1 deck and TLC has already shown that the meta can evolve to beat it.
As someone who took TLC straight to masters, I think the deck should be adjusted. I find TLC incredibly interesting to play, but not at all to play against. Winrate/playrate isn't everything. Just because a toxic deck is played by 3% of the community doesn't mean I should have to play against a toxic matchup 3% of the time I load up the game.
The decks you listed have counters (like Deny, Ruination, silence, etc.) and need to try to maintain some form of tempo during the midgame. TLC is close to being Trundle, some heal, and as much aoe as I can fit. While you can "counter" The Watcher, it becomes a game of 5-7 turns of inactivity if you aren't aggro, and then how many counters are you holding vs how many Fading Memories I have.
The decks you listed have counters (like Deny, Ruination, silence, etc.) and need to try to maintain some form of tempo during the midgame. TLC is close to being Trundle, some heal, and as much aoe as I can fit. While you can "counter" The Watcher, it becomes a game of 5-7 turns of inactivity if you aren't aggro, and then how many counters are you holding vs how many Fading Memories I have.
I don't think you should just be nerfing otherwise "fine" decks because the community is complaining about it. There was a shitload of complaining about Targon's Peak when it was first released, with tons of people saying that it was going to herald the end of Runeterra and saying that it needed to be nerfed for the future of the game. Outside of a couple of coincidental nerfs that were largely targeted at the Trundle Asol ramp deck and didn't significantly effect the deck's power level Targon's Peak wasn't changed, and the game moved on. Hell, Targon's Peak won the last Asia Seasonal tournament and the sky isn't falling. Their decision to not nerf the deck despite constant community outcry to do so ended up being unambiguously correct.
Decks that are unique and break the conventional rules of the game will often lead to people complaining about them, but those unique aspects can also be what someone might find fun about it. My favorite Champ in league is Yuumi precisely because of all the reasons people say she has toxic design. In Runeterra I would say that Deep is a deck that's also fairly toxic and can be frustrating to play against, (I see a lot of brand new players complaining about the deck) but at the same time there's a large chunk of people who it's their favorite deck in the game. Unique decks are important for the health of the game even if some people might find them frustrating.
And I think something that isn't said nearly enough is that most the time the people who are super vocal about complaining about a card/deck being toxic can suppress the opinion of people who really like it. The best example I can think of this is when Blizzard nerfed the original Yogg Sauron. The original Yogg was played in several different control decks at the time and would usually be played late in the game as a last resort as his effects, while extremely random, would generally be pretty beneficial for the person playing it. Not only was the card extremely powerful, but he would sometimes end up randomly giving a win to a person who otherwise had no chance of winning the game. Yogg was widely derided by competitive players as a card that basically made competitive Hearthstone a joke, and it was no surprise when the card was eventually nerfed to stop casting spells once he died. What was a surprise though was the massive outcry of people who complained about the change. To this day it's the most controversial nerf the team ever made and their revert of it 4 years later was almost unanimously celebrated by the community.
I'm not saying that you should always ignore the opinions of the game community, but I think that blindly doing so has a risk of killing otherwise interesting decks and in many cases there is often a audience that really enjoys playing the deck but doesn't feel comfortable voicing that opinion out loud until after the nerfs have happened and the community has moved on to complaining about something else. (And yeah, if it wasn't TLC or Azir Irelia people would be complaining about something else)
Decks that are unique and break the conventional rules of the game will often lead to people complaining about them, but those unique aspects can also be what someone might find fun about it. My favorite Champ in league is Yuumi precisely because of all the reasons people say she has toxic design. In Runeterra I would say that Deep is a deck that's also fairly toxic and can be frustrating to play against, (I see a lot of brand new players complaining about the deck) but at the same time there's a large chunk of people who it's their favorite deck in the game. Unique decks are important for the health of the game even if some people might find them frustrating.
And I think something that isn't said nearly enough is that most the time the people who are super vocal about complaining about a card/deck being toxic can suppress the opinion of people who really like it. The best example I can think of this is when Blizzard nerfed the original Yogg Sauron. The original Yogg was played in several different control decks at the time and would usually be played late in the game as a last resort as his effects, while extremely random, would generally be pretty beneficial for the person playing it. Not only was the card extremely powerful, but he would sometimes end up randomly giving a win to a person who otherwise had no chance of winning the game. Yogg was widely derided by competitive players as a card that basically made competitive Hearthstone a joke, and it was no surprise when the card was eventually nerfed to stop casting spells once he died. What was a surprise though was the massive outcry of people who complained about the change. To this day it's the most controversial nerf the team ever made and their revert of it 4 years later was almost unanimously celebrated by the community.
I'm not saying that you should always ignore the opinions of the game community, but I think that blindly doing so has a risk of killing otherwise interesting decks and in many cases there is often a audience that really enjoys playing the deck but doesn't feel comfortable voicing that opinion out loud until after the nerfs have happened and the community has moved on to complaining about something else. (And yeah, if it wasn't TLC or Azir Irelia people would be complaining about something else)
I think LoR is a bit lost with... everything:
• Balance - hitting some rocky patches: Apheli dies, Landmarks quite bad, Pirates sinking, some decks being too dominant. This is one thing that Riot stated as objective: having balanced cards without the bad ones, and it feels like a ton of archtypes/champions/playstyles are inferior.
• Skins and pricing - not hitting the mark. Need clarification on skin types (if there ever be new voice/interaction ones), and re-pricing.
• End-game resource sink - MIA
• 2vs2 - trying to build the 1vs1+1vs1 tandem instead of Two Headed "real" 2vs2
• Esports with different formats and rules every tournament, this weird Euro League 3 streamers piloting one deck thing... Kind of need to figure out what IS the main format. I don't like the "guessing" at which deck opponent is going to pick, and mind-gaming to counter-pick. With no sideboard, it can produce some low quality, one-sided games, rock-paper-scissors style.
• Limited being a complete disaster
• LABS having very loose balance, half modes are a coin toss who can cheese with Skies Descend, Burried in Ice or Warmother Call (you can actually have funny and still somewhat skill-based modes in LoL)
• Icons are trash rewards, foil versions are ok at best
• I wish there was no champion mastery, because all it adds is an extra step in post-game
• Story/events: is LoR just showcasing Champs/Runeterra as a safari, or are there actual stories and events in the game. MTG has entire books based on their blocks, Kamigawa being the objectively superior and best fictional world ever made.
Even if all things improved, I think I am the biggest problem. There is a cap in my interest of the card game, this would have been a mind-melting game in school compared to old paper card games or clunky 2000s digital games.
• Balance - hitting some rocky patches: Apheli dies, Landmarks quite bad, Pirates sinking, some decks being too dominant. This is one thing that Riot stated as objective: having balanced cards without the bad ones, and it feels like a ton of archtypes/champions/playstyles are inferior.
• Skins and pricing - not hitting the mark. Need clarification on skin types (if there ever be new voice/interaction ones), and re-pricing.
• End-game resource sink - MIA
• 2vs2 - trying to build the 1vs1+1vs1 tandem instead of Two Headed "real" 2vs2
• Esports with different formats and rules every tournament, this weird Euro League 3 streamers piloting one deck thing... Kind of need to figure out what IS the main format. I don't like the "guessing" at which deck opponent is going to pick, and mind-gaming to counter-pick. With no sideboard, it can produce some low quality, one-sided games, rock-paper-scissors style.
• Limited being a complete disaster
• LABS having very loose balance, half modes are a coin toss who can cheese with Skies Descend, Burried in Ice or Warmother Call (you can actually have funny and still somewhat skill-based modes in LoL)
• Icons are trash rewards, foil versions are ok at best
• I wish there was no champion mastery, because all it adds is an extra step in post-game
• Story/events: is LoR just showcasing Champs/Runeterra as a safari, or are there actual stories and events in the game. MTG has entire books based on their blocks, Kamigawa being the objectively superior and best fictional world ever made.
Even if all things improved, I think I am the biggest problem. There is a cap in my interest of the card game, this would have been a mind-melting game in school compared to old paper card games or clunky 2000s digital games.
One of the problems with lissandre is she does 4 different things for no real reason. She summons a frozen thrall, gives watcher on levelup, gives nexus tough, and creates 0 mana ice shard. Compare her to other 3 drops and it just doesn't make sense. its like two champions combined into one. A tough/ice shards champion and the thrall/watcher champion.
They probably will eventually nerf the Watcher/Matron combo but it's still a stupidly designed champion imo.
They probably will eventually nerf the Watcher/Matron combo but it's still a stupidly designed champion imo.
Just a few clarifications:
*TLC has in fact won a Seasonal. It was the SEA where Flying Fish won with a TLC in their line up. At the seasonal most winners were in fact targeting TLC to win and while successful, that didn't stop many players from bringing it. It represented a large share of the decks brought and still represents a large portion of the decks brought in competitive play. It is undeniably a tier 1 deck in competitive even though it can be targeted... just like Azir Irelia can be targeted or how tier 0 Lee Sin used to be.
*Just winning a tournament isn't enough grounds for a change. Like mentioned Targons Peak won a Seasonal too and no one wants to nerf that. However, repeated uses of the deck and over exposure in the tournament scene is something to consider.
*There actually aren't that many control decks in LOR to begin with. Historically they have usually all been Frel + SI decks and more recently Targon decks (which are skewed more Midrange anyway). But I think it's slightly disingenuous to say that the Watcher doesn't oppress other control decks. Ez Draven plays very similar to a Midrange control deck and it gets stomped by TLC. Any type of Swain control deck gets smashed by TLC. Any other Frel + SI deck gets beat by TLC to the point of being irrelevant (no one plays Warmothers, Ledros Control, FTR, Anivia decks anymore). Definitely beats SI + PnZ control decks. The decks that do well against TLC tend to be beefy Midrange deck with a slightly faster clock, like Deep and Frozen Thrall (decks that get obliterated by Azir Irelia). That said I think Azir Irelia is a bigger blight on control decks than TLC could ever be.
*Remember that in the archetype diagram of card games... Combo beats Control, Control beats Aggro and Aggro beats Combo. TLC breaks this triangle as it serves as both a combo deck in the purpose of beating those control decks I mentioned and beats Aggro by use of its control deck. However, I don't prescribe to this triangle at all and I am fine with decks with breaking this. I am merely pointing out that TLC impacts decks at both top end and bottom end which is a unique characteristic of the deck.
*Even when Control decks were in their peaks, they never dominated ladder presence (except maybe EU). Ladder as an environment favors faster/Aggro decks due to the way the point system works. Tier 0 Lee Sin deck never saw the number that a random Aggro deck sees on Ladder. This is an important factor when assessing TLC as a deck, it will never see high playrates on Ladder due to the nature of the deck and the Ladder environment. And of course the skill ceiling factor limits its win rate similar to Lee Sin.
*Most of the combos mentioned before are less consistent and or less power and more interactable than Watcher. Warmothers was never really good or super tier 1 status, it was a tournament tech at best. Ledros Control was more interactive than this and had a longer clock usually (the famous combo using Revitalize Roar on turn 10 and Atrocity doesn't even work anymore lol). Aurelion Sol even when ramped on turn 8 didn't kill you until at least turn 9 and you still had the full turn to deal with the singular threat. Feel The Rush was deniable and you could Frostbite the targets or recall them or kill them on their attack... both interactions you can't do against watcher. And even when they got the perfect FTR off it wasn't a 100% game closer if the attack went off... usually they would bring you down low and finish with Atrocity. And again I iterate yet again.. FTR was a turn 9 play which required banked mana. This level of combo is more similar to like Lee Sin or old Ezrael. I would argue this is less interactive than Lee Sin but maybe a bit more interactive than old Ezrael who would kill you at Burst speed and thus had to be nerfed.
That said I don't prescribe to the notion that decks, card and archetypes should be obliterated. TLC is a cool combo control deck and Azir Irelia is a unique Aggro combo deck that deserve to be in the game in a good even strong state. TLC I would be fine if the clock for it was increased by 1 or some element of it was made more interactive. Maybe the Watcher creates a skill on the stack when it attacks. Maybe Matron costs 9 mana but with better stats. Creating more avenues for counter play results in a better game overall at least IMO.
*TLC has in fact won a Seasonal. It was the SEA where Flying Fish won with a TLC in their line up. At the seasonal most winners were in fact targeting TLC to win and while successful, that didn't stop many players from bringing it. It represented a large share of the decks brought and still represents a large portion of the decks brought in competitive play. It is undeniably a tier 1 deck in competitive even though it can be targeted... just like Azir Irelia can be targeted or how tier 0 Lee Sin used to be.
*Just winning a tournament isn't enough grounds for a change. Like mentioned Targons Peak won a Seasonal too and no one wants to nerf that. However, repeated uses of the deck and over exposure in the tournament scene is something to consider.
*There actually aren't that many control decks in LOR to begin with. Historically they have usually all been Frel + SI decks and more recently Targon decks (which are skewed more Midrange anyway). But I think it's slightly disingenuous to say that the Watcher doesn't oppress other control decks. Ez Draven plays very similar to a Midrange control deck and it gets stomped by TLC. Any type of Swain control deck gets smashed by TLC. Any other Frel + SI deck gets beat by TLC to the point of being irrelevant (no one plays Warmothers, Ledros Control, FTR, Anivia decks anymore). Definitely beats SI + PnZ control decks. The decks that do well against TLC tend to be beefy Midrange deck with a slightly faster clock, like Deep and Frozen Thrall (decks that get obliterated by Azir Irelia). That said I think Azir Irelia is a bigger blight on control decks than TLC could ever be.
*Remember that in the archetype diagram of card games... Combo beats Control, Control beats Aggro and Aggro beats Combo. TLC breaks this triangle as it serves as both a combo deck in the purpose of beating those control decks I mentioned and beats Aggro by use of its control deck. However, I don't prescribe to this triangle at all and I am fine with decks with breaking this. I am merely pointing out that TLC impacts decks at both top end and bottom end which is a unique characteristic of the deck.
*Even when Control decks were in their peaks, they never dominated ladder presence (except maybe EU). Ladder as an environment favors faster/Aggro decks due to the way the point system works. Tier 0 Lee Sin deck never saw the number that a random Aggro deck sees on Ladder. This is an important factor when assessing TLC as a deck, it will never see high playrates on Ladder due to the nature of the deck and the Ladder environment. And of course the skill ceiling factor limits its win rate similar to Lee Sin.
*Most of the combos mentioned before are less consistent and or less power and more interactable than Watcher. Warmothers was never really good or super tier 1 status, it was a tournament tech at best. Ledros Control was more interactive than this and had a longer clock usually (the famous combo using Revitalize Roar on turn 10 and Atrocity doesn't even work anymore lol). Aurelion Sol even when ramped on turn 8 didn't kill you until at least turn 9 and you still had the full turn to deal with the singular threat. Feel The Rush was deniable and you could Frostbite the targets or recall them or kill them on their attack... both interactions you can't do against watcher. And even when they got the perfect FTR off it wasn't a 100% game closer if the attack went off... usually they would bring you down low and finish with Atrocity. And again I iterate yet again.. FTR was a turn 9 play which required banked mana. This level of combo is more similar to like Lee Sin or old Ezrael. I would argue this is less interactive than Lee Sin but maybe a bit more interactive than old Ezrael who would kill you at Burst speed and thus had to be nerfed.
That said I don't prescribe to the notion that decks, card and archetypes should be obliterated. TLC is a cool combo control deck and Azir Irelia is a unique Aggro combo deck that deserve to be in the game in a good even strong state. TLC I would be fine if the clock for it was increased by 1 or some element of it was made more interactive. Maybe the Watcher creates a skill on the stack when it attacks. Maybe Matron costs 9 mana but with better stats. Creating more avenues for counter play results in a better game overall at least IMO.
alright the king has temporarily returned, I'm taking a break from posting, mostly been playing a LOT of Runeterra and found that better for me despite Irelia/Azir. I'm largely still really enjoying the game. I'm in love with the Marauder Control that Dahbomb posted, it's very fun and strong and climbing with it has been a (very slow) breeze. Also Dragons, Deep, Mono Fiora, all very fun to play in Gauntlets. Yeah everything is playing around one stupid meta deck but at least they're all enjoyable archetypes.
Also I hit 3/4 Prime Glories in Gauntlets this season (I forgot to do one of them), is there any chance I could still make it through at the end of the season?
but yeah this patch raised some eyebrows, definitely could've done with more changes. also TLC absolutely needs to be nerfed. it doesn't need to be a big nerf, Mogwai mentioned that there's actually a pretty simple tweak: make it so Spectral Matron doesn't summon a copy, she summons the card itself and makes it Ephemeral. still has the same usage, shenanigans are still possible with fading memories but they aren't getting the free extra one guaranteed anymore.
oh and the biggest issue with this patch by far was that they didn't nerf Foundry in Lab of Legends. It's ridiculous. like what the fuck.
Also I hit 3/4 Prime Glories in Gauntlets this season (I forgot to do one of them), is there any chance I could still make it through at the end of the season?
but yeah this patch raised some eyebrows, definitely could've done with more changes. also TLC absolutely needs to be nerfed. it doesn't need to be a big nerf, Mogwai mentioned that there's actually a pretty simple tweak: make it so Spectral Matron doesn't summon a copy, she summons the card itself and makes it Ephemeral. still has the same usage, shenanigans are still possible with fading memories but they aren't getting the free extra one guaranteed anymore.
Not only is it quicker, it's more or less impossible to counter because usually they get not one but two or more Watchers. That's the problem. Every deck you listed has strong finishers that get you like 90% of the way there but none of them are inevitable. Watcher needs you to have basically two separate immediate answers on turn 8 (or drawing two of your champ and awkwardly shuffling in champ spells). I don't think people are asking for the archetype to be removed altogether, but it absolutely needs to be less of a guaranteed doom situation. Like Deep, Celestials, Warmothers, FTR are scary as hell against aggro but they can all fight back against each other. Watcher is literally whoever attacks first wins on the spot, it's not even a counterable skill. If you saw the EU tournament, those games were awful because of how strict the clock was, although the Teemo draw was hilarious.
oh and the biggest issue with this patch by far was that they didn't nerf Foundry in Lab of Legends. It's ridiculous. like what the fuck.
Prime Glories just give you a head start, they aren't needed for qualifying. In my experience though even if you win the Last Chance Gauntlet you are still put into wait list (I have been wait listed 3 times already, only qualifying once). Better to qualify by getting Masters instead.
That's genuinely my bad. I got mixed up because it was the only one of the 3 massively popular and brought decks going into the tournament that had any real success, and even then it wasn't as great of success as the deck's popularity would have indicated. In my opinion, the sign of a healthy metagame is one where the most powerful decks aren't necessarily the most successful ones because the meta can shift around it and mitigate it. Now granted TLC seems to be a bit more resilient than that then decks like Thresh Nasus and Azir Irelia, but it's way more vulnerable to it than decks like TF Fizz and Aphelios piles were. TLC can (and so far has) largely exist in a healthy metagame, and for the reasons I outlined earlier I think that you should be very careful nerfing decks that on paper do not need nerfs.
Ez Draven's MU vs TLC has ranged from 6-4 to 65-35 on ladder, that is similar to how a lot of the slow midrange/creature-based control decks pan out. Which firstly is 100% a winnable matchup and far from the worst MU that exists in the game, and secondly is legit the deck's worst matchup. There's a very real possibility that nerfing TLC means you're probably going to have to nerf Ez Draven as well because aside from TLC there's maybe one or two decks in the whole meta that have a "good" matchup vs Ez Draven. And there's controlly lists like Deep and Tahm Raka that do well into it. Funnily enough there was a Malphite Taliyah list that went about even with it prepatch despite having like a 36% win rate overall, if that ends up being a thing I could legit see it being a counter to TLC. The only control decks that REALLY struggle vs TLC are ones that don't really have a consistent win condition, which overall have been struggling as of late aside from Ez Teemo Foundry which is one of the more successful tourney decks despite its seemingly bad MU vs TLC.
I'm not saying that it doesn't have a good matchup spread vs a lot of the various slower decks in the format, but the data I've seen seems to indicate that its power against them is fairly overblown and that a lot of decks that seem to have a bad matchup vs TLC still are able to find room in the metagame. While the deck does have some draws that are bordernline unbeatable and can be sometimes put together fairly consistently, I feel like people remember the games where they had Trundle on curve, two pillars into Liss on 8 and then Matron plus Fading Memories backup on 9 and not the matchups where they had to expose their only Liss early to stop themselves from dying then don't find another one for the rest of the game, or one of the games where they're missing a Trundle, Liss, or Matron and die before they find them.
I wouldn't be fully opposed to a nerf for the deck, but I'm largely arguing that the deck did not need to be nerfed for the metagame to be healthy and frankly most the suggestions to "fix" the deck would likely be overnerfs and/or would radically change the feel of the deck. When I first lost to the deck because they were able to play 3+ Watchers through my answers I thought the deck was stupid and needed to be changed, but after playing it a bit, seeing it in action more, and looking into all the data available to me I've found the deck to be a lot more manageable than I originally thought and have mostly made my peace with it. I think the suggestion I saw somewhere of Watcher being reduced to 1 or 2 mana rather than 0 would be a better compromise that would give decks that can actually interact with Watchers more room to breathe, a lot of times they have enough answers to them but not enough mana to cast them and lose because they're able to play 3-4 Watchers in one turn.
data really only tells half the story. using matchup tables isn't the be all end all because of how the meta warps around threats, you're only getting TLC matchups in the context of a hyper fast meta.
TLC isn't an OP deck, that isn't the problem. the problem is it puts a hard clock on the game in a way that no deck really has before. now that isn't the same problem that Azir/Irelia is when that clock is a nut draw turn 4 or 5, but there's very, very few decks that can deal with double Watcher on turn 8. just because the meta exists in a state where most decks can beat TLC before that doesn't really change that. there's just no need for that combo to be that uninteractive. like you can't Deny it, you can't Ruinate it, you need two immediate removal spells before you even have max mana, etc.
TLC isn't an OP deck, that isn't the problem. the problem is it puts a hard clock on the game in a way that no deck really has before. now that isn't the same problem that Azir/Irelia is when that clock is a nut draw turn 4 or 5, but there's very, very few decks that can deal with double Watcher on turn 8. just because the meta exists in a state where most decks can beat TLC before that doesn't really change that. there's just no need for that combo to be that uninteractive. like you can't Deny it, you can't Ruinate it, you need two immediate removal spells before you even have max mana, etc.
You can stun the Watchers, you can silence them, you can Single Combat ephemeral ones. Targon itself has plenty of stuff that can stop Watchers, and that's the main region that I would say generally struggles the most with being put on a massive clock because their wincon is usually to just invoke something big. There are things that can interact with Watchers, and since all but one are going to be Ephemeral stuff like stuns essentially work as kill spells against them. Frankly if your control deck can't deal with one or two Watchers on turn 8 (and mind you vs Control it's fairly uncommon to be able to attack with Watcher on 8 because you have to have Lissandra already in play which leaves her exposed to getting killed) you probably would have lost to a resolved FTR as well. The biggest issue with the Watcher is that they can play upwards of 4 of them in one turn depending on how good their draw is, but again that's not something that will be happening every game.
Frankly I'm pretty skeptical that there's a "happy medium" where the deck is still good competitively but the community as a whole thinks it's good to play against. Most the suggested changes I've seen for the deck would kill the archetype completely. The deck is good now because its win condition isn't fair. If you make the wincon fair I don't think it'll be worth playing anymore.
Yes, there are solutions to one Watcher. But how are you going to double stun, double silence, double combat challenge them on turn 8 when it's highly likely they get both? The problem with the Watcher is that even if you have an answer for one it's extremely unlikely to have an answer for the second, let alone the third or fourth. Shadow Isles can't double Vengeance. P&Z won't have enough damage from spells. Ionia can't recall. Your combat stats are useless because Watchers are huge so outside of some pretty nutty Dragons with Concerted Strike you can't get rid of non-ephemeral versions. The only competitive stuns right now are really Arachnoid Sentry and Concussive Palm and you need two. Even Crescent Strike you need to have invoked two of them. Champ spell to put in your deck? You need two copies of the champ card. Like you need two of a very specific answer. You don't even get combat against Watcher, as soon as it declares an attack you've lost.
I don't get wanting an uninteractive instant win button like that around. Even old Ezreal you could play to avoid his level up. But Watcher is inevitable, that's the problem. It doesn't have to be broken, it just needs to be stoppable.
Plenty of decks can deal with one Watcher (hence Mogwai's suggestion to make it so Matron doesn't give you a copy). Very, very few decks can deal with multiple Watchers and Feel the Rush is completely different. It isn't going to kill you from full life unless your board is completely empty. You get combat interactions with it. You can Ruinate it. Freeze. Recall. Deny. And you only need to do that to one of them to survive. You can kill one and half the combo is gone. Like it's way more interactable, it's not even remotely comparable.
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Depends on what is meant by the deck still being "good" after a nerf. Right now its really all in using triple Matrons and triple Fading Memories with Babbling Berg as tutor for Matron. If they nerf the combo then the deck can pivot into other alt win conditions like Ledros Atrocity finisher. Both Trundle and Lissandra are good at stalling out the game and SI already provides a good amount of finishers as it is. The overall deck might still be good just less reliant on that one aspect of Lissandra. SI + Freljord has always been relevant, its just the top end win condition that has been shuffled around.
BTW there is also the unfair Retreat Return Watcher combo that will eventually be nerfed way way into the future. Cheating out a 0 mana Watcher at burst speed has crazy potential to be broken but Ionia has a bigger struggle achieving the 8 mana card played condition.
BTW there is also the unfair Retreat Return Watcher combo that will eventually be nerfed way way into the future. Cheating out a 0 mana Watcher at burst speed has crazy potential to be broken but Ionia has a bigger struggle achieving the 8 mana card played condition.
Idk what world we're only dealing with 2 Watchers. Against Targon, I'm very happy to extend the game out to t9 or t10 if it means I can play 4-5 in one turn.
Wow this Malphite lab deck is SSSOOO bad....
Almost lost to Spiders. Spiral Stairs might actually be the worst card in the game... man what were they thinking with that one.
Free Rerolls on the first pick though which is super helpful. Also event calendar updated:
New Lab powers:
Almost lost to Spiders. Spiral Stairs might actually be the worst card in the game... man what were they thinking with that one.
Free Rerolls on the first pick though which is super helpful. Also event calendar updated:
New Lab powers:
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Sweet, was looking forward to new Lab stuff.Wow this Malphite lab deck is SSSOOO bad....
Almost lost to Spiders. Spiral Stairs might actually be the worst card in the game... man what were they thinking with that one.
Free Rerolls on the first pick though which is super helpful. Also event calendar updated:
New Lab powers:
Bolded is a great QoL change too, no more having to retire my run off of a bad first draw.
I got to Foundry with Malphite but then they just cheese burned me out. Almost had them. Man beating Legendary with Malphite is going to be quite the accomplishment. I think I just need to keep Rerolling for either Yasuo or Leona synergies, nothing else really helps Malphite (can't pick Taliyah she isn't available as a support champion).
Reddit - Dive into anything
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Excerpt (emphasis by me):
Good words. Here's hoping they can execute on it.
I'm hoping they largely stick to monthly patches outside of emergencies, I really don't like the prospect of bi-weekly balance patches outside of emergencies as I feel like that doesn't really give the meta enough time to fully develop. (The current meta is fairly similar to the one after the TF and Aphelios nerfs and it's still evolving) I don't want the changes to largely them just changing stuff for the sake of making things different. That being said I do hope to see more substantial patches during non-expansion times as its the safest time to make changes without worrying about accidentally oppressing new cards and archetypes.
I said it during the Call of the Mountain the biggest issue is the current release schedule, more frequent patches is just treating the symptoms not the disease.
The expansions besides the first of each set barely affect the diversity of meta, even then the first usually has dead weight cards because clearly they hold back the archetype.
For example Taliyah(ignoring if she's good or bad), there just wasn't enough synergy to make a deck for her. We had to wait 2 months for more landmark support.
40 cards every two months just isn't enough. Might be better for engagement but I wonder how long people stay around for each expansion.
The expansions besides the first of each set barely affect the diversity of meta, even then the first usually has dead weight cards because clearly they hold back the archetype.
For example Taliyah(ignoring if she's good or bad), there just wasn't enough synergy to make a deck for her. We had to wait 2 months for more landmark support.
40 cards every two months just isn't enough. Might be better for engagement but I wonder how long people stay around for each expansion.
All I needed to hear really. Was getting worried that they were pulling back on the changes because of more frequent card releases. Its going to be a month wait but at least this time the changes should be meaty (especially after the backlash).
Considering that Irelia and the other Blade Dance cards came along in an expansion, idk if this holds up.
It does hold up. Cards like Emperor's Dais, Field Marshall, Voice of the Risen, Field Musicians were all intended to work with this archetype but were released in the initial set, not with the current expansion. It's a slightly different case where those cards ended up being good standalone but they were very clearly meant to be played in that Irelia deck.
There wasn't a way they could have released the Irelia archetype without splitting because Azir is intended to work in the Mono Shurima archetype as well and that needed 2 other Champions plus support cards to work. And even then the Mono Shurima archetype was split up dramatically, we will be getting more Mono Shurima cards in the future expansion as well.
There is no easy way to fix this unfortunately. The best way they did it was with Tahm Soraka where they released both in the same set and a few of their support cards were released before hand as opposed to afterwards (they did release Lounging Lizard afterward maybe but the archetype felt complete on release). Imagine if they had released Soraka by herself initially, that would have felt really bad. The issue with doing it this way is that you have forced archetypes or arranged marriages in an already small set with everyone just playing that one archetype. The Tahm Soraka expansion ended up feeling flat because there was only really 1 new deck and Shyvana was very weak with less support cards initially.
Remember that these sets weren't designed for the split. Future sets (either the next one or the one after) are designed to be released in three chunks so the archetypes should feel more complete with each new card drop.
Also this part of the patch notes really stuck out to me, and I think it's part of why they're so hesitant to drop big patches every two weeks like they used to:
I've mentioned this before, but a big problem in digital card games is when cards get nerfed and you're a new or casual player with fewer resources and that means you've basically lost your only competitive deck. Like Gwent's monthly updates are a nightmare because it's harder to earn currency so it's just like I guess I just have to play with a trash deck for two weeks until I get back to par... only to lose it again in two weeks. Runeterra is extremely generous but it still takes a few months of playing to sustain, and not everyone does it daily. Patching fortnightly in a game that doesn't refund you when cards get changed is a dangerous game, and just expecting players to keep up with constant changes is a lot. They have to cater to more than just the people with infinite shards and can craft everything.
Mogwai had the more cynical take is that Riot doesn't want players who spent real money on their cards to feel like they got ripped off, but I don't think that's really it.
also for all the complaining, can I say generally speaking I'm still happy with everything outside of some patch balancing and expeditions. Still playing Lab of Legends daily. The new pass has a great aesthetic, the paid rewards feel a lot better (no more 25 cosmetic shards) and I love the new home screen. dunno if you worked on it or not Lil Peanut Brotha but it's so damn good
Also this part of the patch notes really stuck out to me, and I think it's part of why they're so hesitant to drop big patches every two weeks like they used to:
I've mentioned this before, but a big problem in digital card games is when cards get nerfed and you're a new or casual player with fewer resources and that means you've basically lost your only competitive deck. Like Gwent's monthly updates are a nightmare because it's harder to earn currency so it's just like I guess I just have to play with a trash deck for two weeks until I get back to par... only to lose it again in two weeks. Runeterra is extremely generous but it still takes a few months of playing to sustain, and not everyone does it daily. Patching fortnightly in a game that doesn't refund you when cards get changed is a dangerous game, and just expecting players to keep up with constant changes is a lot. They have to cater to more than just the people with infinite shards and can craft everything.
Mogwai had the more cynical take is that Riot doesn't want players who spent real money on their cards to feel like they got ripped off, but I don't think that's really it.
also for all the complaining, can I say generally speaking I'm still happy with everything outside of some patch balancing and expeditions. Still playing Lab of Legends daily. The new pass has a great aesthetic, the paid rewards feel a lot better (no more 25 cosmetic shards) and I love the new home screen. dunno if you worked on it or not Lil Peanut Brotha but it's so damn good
Strong agree.
But based on their release schedule, if they do a big balance update in the month between, there's no room to make tweaks if things go wrong. I think they kind of have to do big shakeups of old cards along with the big release, let the meta stew for a month, and then tweak in the in-between month.
Considering that they're aware that people are unhappy about the balance changes, I wonder if they should've updated a few cards through a hotfix to stave off some of the negativity. I recall them saying that they have the ability to update cards without having to push out a patch.
Without proper testing and consideration, this could be a recipe for disaster. I would rather they consider the changes and then push them out rather than rush out changes at the whim of the community. It seemed like their plan was to make big changes for 2.11 but they couldn't share that information in advance before and why we got an anemic 2.9 patch.
I would also rather them make substantial buffs to really terrible cards rather than small numerical changes that hardly makes an impact. And that requires more testing as well.
But Irelia + Azir was an emergency.
You cannot make something good out of crap. You release 3 champions:
• Two low-tier
• One OP
There is... a lot of problems when the mini-expansion debuts like that. Nobody wants to play Zilean/Malphite because they are weak, so your only new option is one good champion, and as it happened, part of the broken deck in need of hotfix.
Riot just fucked up, but it is ok, you can fix it with patches unlike when WotC has to ban one out of 2-3 planeswalkers right at the start of the set. RIP Oko
To be fair some of the new Ionia cards did reopen up Elusive Aggro decks. But that's on the back of the Dancing Droplet which is a completely unfair card like Merciless Hunter. It will eventually get nerfed once things settle down.
And there is also Irelia + MF which isn't that bad plus Cithria + Matron. A lot of the new countdown enablers made Thrall deck an actual deck and made Taliyah playable (still not convinced she is core to the deck). Its just that Irelia + Azir kept some of the newer decks down especially the Countdown Thrall deck.
And there is also Irelia + MF which isn't that bad plus Cithria + Matron. A lot of the new countdown enablers made Thrall deck an actual deck and made Taliyah playable (still not convinced she is core to the deck). Its just that Irelia + Azir kept some of the newer decks down especially the Countdown Thrall deck.
Maybe unpopular opinion but honestly, it's sometimes ok to have a short-term meta ruled by a deck or two imo. If a deck took a week to figure out and ruled for 3 weeks before it got slapped down, that's not terrible. Deckbuilding against a target uses slightly different muscles than deckbuilding into a volatile meta, so I'm not opposed to being able to experience both. I've run quite run strange brews that have found varying levels of success against Irelia that I just wouldn't have had to do compared to last meta. So ironically, because my opponent's deck is largely static (and that's a gross exaggeration given the playrate), I've ended up trying and playing a lot more stuff into it. The problem here is a convergence of new champs bad, Irelia being 90% figured out by day 1, and then community expecting a big patch and getting not much (even tho Rito kind of hinted at it tbh).
Nerfing things two weeks in doesn't allow creativity to breathe sometimes.
Made a Fizz/Ezreal deck. Really excited to use it. I know it might not be "meta" or anything but it seems like a lot of fun!
I think it would be great if, when your opponent quits, you have units left on the board, they all auto attack the enemy nexus and it explodes regardless of what health it was on just so there's some element of satisfaction there.
Still working on completing it in the game. I made it on LoR.mobalytics. Not too far from it being done though.
At least the nexus explosion is there...but yeah it does kind of suck haha
The Zilean deck in Lab of Legends feels like the first time the Landmark strategy pays off in the format and a control approach is viable. The deck doesn't have to just try and brute force a fast victory, I appreciate how different it feels. I'm sure it'll get crushed by Foundry on Legendary as a result though.
Your team killed it. Looking forward to the Ruination event!
Yasuo + Malphite feels a lot better now. Mostly because you don't have to run bad landmark cards and just run 3 Eye of Ho' Rak. Meaning I can run a good number of solid 2 drops and Lifesteal to beat aggro. I been running in Gauntlet and once I ban Azir Irelia or Discard Aggro I am in decent shape.
Underrated buff. However a good majority of the Targon landmark synergy cards are pretty bad and should be buffed. The Stairs card is so bad it's almost parody.
Underrated buff. However a good majority of the Targon landmark synergy cards are pretty bad and should be buffed. The Stairs card is so bad it's almost parody.
Spiral Stairs is the worst card in the game
You could drop the cost or the countdown down to 1 and it'd still be bad
And Seed of Strength being Fleeting is just the cherry on top
You could drop the cost or the countdown down to 1 and it'd still be bad
And Seed of Strength being Fleeting is just the cherry on top
I haven't played much with the new archetypes, but Zilean feels the weakest to me. Even below legendary a deck that is slow to get going and needs to draw extra cards is in big trouble against Foundry. And a deck that likes to do 1 damage is pretty awkward against Scars.
Aphelios is still the king of control because you can go down to 1 every game and easily heal back to full, no questions asked.
Fleeting AND Slow speed lol.
Also won Gauntlets this week using Taliyah + Lissandra and Yasuo + Malphite. Being able to ban Aggro helps a lot as it turns out. Taliyah + Lissandra is definitely a fine tournament tech choice however I feel that most of the match ups its good at, Freljord Overwhelm is also good at which makes it hard to fit in due to the region combination.
So I've only played this on lab of legends because I'm trying to collect enough stuff to build the Deep deck I want to play, but it seems *really* hard.
Like I can just about make it to Hunters with Azir on normal but then get wrecked. Does that mean I'm really bad at this game, or is labs crazy difficult?
Like I can just about make it to Hunters with Azir on normal but then get wrecked. Does that mean I'm really bad at this game, or is labs crazy difficult?
Labs is kind of dependent on what powers and such that you get. Sometimes you can just steamroll it, and other times it's more challenging. Hunters is definitely about knowing when to play certain cards, though. You need to keep in mind that your weakest unit will get vulnerable every turn. Azir being a 1/5 makes it so he can be the target of that pretty often, so when it's gonna be the Hunters turn try and put down a sacrificial unit.
Absolutely tearing it up with this Malphite Yasuo deck:
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Ton of healing and early drops to hold against aggro. No other landmark except Eye of Ho-Rak allowing us to play more options against aggro. Auto win against most Midrange decks due to late game condition of Malphite. Bladetwirler comes on big in this deck. If meta slows down I might cut down on some heal cards for a Zenith Blade or two to force early game closes.
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Ton of healing and early drops to hold against aggro. No other landmark except Eye of Ho-Rak allowing us to play more options against aggro. Auto win against most Midrange decks due to late game condition of Malphite. Bladetwirler comes on big in this deck. If meta slows down I might cut down on some heal cards for a Zenith Blade or two to force early game closes.
I tried this deck and got absolutely demolished lmao
Azir/Irelia, MF/Irelia, Dragons and Aggro all stomped it. If you don't draw Yasuo/Ra-Horak you're kind of fucked beyond belief.
Azir Irelia is a tough match up and I ban on gauntlets but I was fine against most non Discard Aggro. A lot of healing and strong two drops to stabilize. The deck crushes Midrange decks in general.
Nicmakesplays went on a 15 game win streak in Ranked with a similar list as well so it's definitely decent.
I might experiment running in Spacy Sketchers though.
Nicmakesplays went on a 15 game win streak in Ranked with a similar list as well so it's definitely decent.
I might experiment running in Spacy Sketchers though.