Boom. This.
Lebron still the greatest of this generation and second best of all time.
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LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
- Thread starter Deleted member 31923
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Lebron still the greatest of this generation and second best of all time.
as someone who has been fortunate enough to watch both play for the majority of their careers it ultimately comes down to absolute peak (still think Jordan wins that) vs. most valuable career (i.e. the Ben Taylor criteria which LeBron wins). just depends on what you value. everything else is just catnip for the first take and video game forum crowd.
Like I said, I think MJ's peak is unmatched.
But I can see LeBron being the tortoise when it's all said and done.
this is kind of my point
it's really hard to find guys that big that can actually play, so when one comes around the value over replacement is absolutely insane
when a smaller player can achieve the same level of dominance, it's a much bigger accomplishment / indicator of greatness (imo) because they had to beat much more talented players than when some 7'2" guy outplays his rivals
At this point, it's Lebron/Jordan 1a/1b. I can see an argument for either.
People will talk about what they both did at age 35 as a disingenuous argument. Ignore that. In this stage of Lebron's career, you should ALWAYS talk about it in terms of his 17th season. Unless you are insane enough to think that a college season is equivalent to an NBA season. In which case your opinion should not count.
People will talk about what they both did at age 35 as a disingenuous argument. Ignore that. In this stage of Lebron's career, you should ALWAYS talk about it in terms of his 17th season. Unless you are insane enough to think that a college season is equivalent to an NBA season. In which case your opinion should not count.
it'll always be debatable who's #1 on the court but as someone who was most into basketball in the late 80s to early 00s, lebron has jumped ahead of MJ as a player based on what he does off the court/with his position of fame. i'd much rather my kids look at lebron as a role model than MJ.
Technically ...
Michael was 6/16
LeBron is 4/17
Unless we're going to omit years where Michael was injured, years when Michael played baseball, years when Michael was bounced prior to making the finals, and years where Michael played while being too old.
Yeah winning on 3 different teams (as the essential piece - FMVP) I think is actually less likely to be accomplished again than 6 for 6. I'm not sure you can say one accomplishment is better than the other. They're both impressive in different ways.
It is a different style in basketball. Jordan had to contend with all time greats going at his throat week after week. For that you need a special kind of magic and arrogance.
LeBron on the other hand has had to contend with match after match after match of mediocre opponents who don't really care about that match they are playing in. In that environment lesser players like Davis fall asleep most of the time, so you need someone dedicated to pumping up their stats to achieve arbitrary landmarks.
So both are great in their own way *
I see. And how would you classify him beating the best team the league had ever seen, that broke the single-season win record, and doing it after falling down 3-1 and posting this stat line?
Don't worry, Skip, I'll wait.
If that was at play, how has Lebron become a consensus top 2-3 player all time, surpassing the likes of Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, etc?
I'm talking about.........wait for it......
The
N
B
A
FINALS
.
So what do you say about a player that isn't making the finals? Is failing earlier in the process more ideal?
all basketball historians would certainly agree that the mid to late 90's were the apex of NBA basketball
There is nothing Lebron James can do to change peoples' opinions on this topic. It is impossible to overcome Micheal Jordans's influence and legacy. Lebron is objectively the greatest player of all time but he's had far more haters than any other player in the league. Too many old MJ fans that can't accept another player being better than their beloved icon.
I think this is the most reasonable way to look at it. Nobody will probably ever match MJ's peak run of 6 Finals in 8 years,6 titles and 6 Finals MVPs, and really, you never ever thought they would lose in that span. Russell is the only guy in that conversation and the league was so different back then.
The case for LeBron is probably in terms of length of peak. What he just did in his 17th year is incredible, and just as unlikely that we'll see something like that again in the NBA (3 teams, 10 finals, 4 titles, 4 FMVPs). There are guys in the conversation (Kareem, Magic) in terms of comprehensive career as well.
Frankly, at this point, 17 years and 4 MVPs in, anybody who is still hung up on whether or not he's better than Jordan is stupid.
Kawhi is only 29 I'd say he has a decent shot at it
I don't know anyone in the NBA on pace to go 6 for 6 though
Show me a player who won a finals MVP in his 17th NBA season with no indication of slowing down
It speaks of clutchness to be perfect in the biggest round of basketball in the world.
Can you imagine what Jordan's team would have done to the Mavericks???
I'll apply the same imagination to what LeBron would do to the Pistons. And this is why legacy trading between these two is a tired exercise.
Nobody guards those players 1-on-1 in today's NBA. That's my entire point. Yeah you'll see 1-on-1 matchups with ball handlers at the top of the key or the wings or whatnot as the offensive action moves but the moment the ball gets anywhere near the basket good defenses are generally ready to swarm the ball handler and force difficult shots or difficult passes, handchecking be damned, and they're able to do this because defenses can roam and shade towards wherever they need to (three-second rule notwithstanding, to be fair), preparing to double the ball or rotate to an otherwise open shooter or do whatever else they need to do to cut off the approach to the basket. And note that I'm not calling that a zone, because these defenses aren't zones. They're better than any zone.
These defenses have become so suffocating that offensive schemes have needed to adjust by centralizing all the action either under the basket (as that was and remains the most efficient shot in basketball) or around the three point line, where offensive sets can actually generate some space and even be rewarded for doing so because 3 > 2. And even still with those adjustments and the inherent advantage of "3 > 2" creating those shots continues to be exceptionally difficult for all but the most elite of offenses. Playing primarily iso ball is not effective in today's NBA and none of the players you listed, much less Lebron, generate their team's offense in that manner. No, not even Harden.
Offenses didn't have to worry about any of this in the 80s/90s. Defenders stayed with their man, double teaming was restricted to certain situations and thus predictable, and primary ball handlers had all the space they wanted to generate their own shot against their man so long as the rest of the team cleared out. You HAD to be physical on defense because what the hell else were you supposed to do to stop freaks like Jordan or Magic or Isiah or Clyde, etc.?
Again, none of this is to take anything away from Jordan who thrived in this era and no doubt would thrive in today's era, but he most certainly did NOT play in a tougher defensive environment than Lebron did. That notion is absolutely far and away from the truth.
6 for 6 in the finals w/ 6 Finals MVPs. Come on now!
lmao my family was gutted when they finally got past the Bad Boys
lmao my family was gutted when they finally got past the Bad Boys
Just missing Shaq and TD in the 2000s.
The thing about this debate... Is hearing the NBA players that actually played against all 3, in MJ, Kobe & LeBron will put them in that very order. #1 MJ, #2 Kobe, & #3 is Lebron. (Just ranking the three)
I got Mike at #1. Bron wears #23 for a reason y'all. I go back and forth myself between Bean and Bron. Kobe the toughest shot maker probably ever. Straight certified killer. And Bron Bron is just special.
All that's missing in Bron's resume is that three-peat. He has a chance with this team and AD. Magic & Pat Riley said it's one of the hardest things to do in professional basketball.
He's been absolutely incredible since coming to the League at the age of 18. Not one scandal off the court and has lived up to all expectations. And he's still at the top of the game and he's not finished.
Does he play on stacked teams, yeah he does. But that's the way the league is now. Shit... Shaq was joking about his free agency on how the League is now, "If I knew it was allowed I would have joined Mike." - Imagine adding Shaq to that 72-10 Bulls squad. Madness.
I don't fault LeBron for going to Miami, Boston & Detroit was squaded up. And Chicago at the time was on the come up. He took Cleveland as far as they could currently go at the time. I do criticize him for going back to Cleveland after Miami, but I understand it. Going back to Dan Gilbert after all that shit he said, he did it for the fanbase, his Legacy and city of Akron.
So for the moment I got in my top 10
- Mike, Kareem, Kobe, LeBron & Magic
- Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Russell, & Wilt
- Bill Russell is in a tier of his own btw. Greatest winner ever in all of team sports. Has an extra ring for his toe if he wanted to.
What are you talking about?
I see plenty of people say all of those people say those players are better than Bron.
The problem with goat arguments is when you act like they are objective. Which Jordan stans have perfected while saying things like, "it will always be Jordan." Lol.
I am legit curious as to how MJ would have dealt with being in a bubble for 4 months though. He might have literally murdered Scott Burrell.
If nostalgia keeps new from replacing old, there would be no movement for Lebron into the top 2-3. But here he is, a consensus arguement for top 2-3 all time, surpassing the likes of Kareem, Bird, and Magic, with a buuuuunch of you claiming he is the GOAT.
I don't really know why so much of this is predicated on Finals performance, anyway. It's a much better indicator for an individual to look at efficiency and defense. Jordan was a MONSTER defender, an area he deserves every accolade for, but LeBron is also elite in this area. On offense, LeBron has a higher eFG percentage, higher rebounding rate, and higher assist rate.
Mind you I STILL think the answer is Jordan, but some of the people in this thread claiming LeBron isn't top five? What a joke.
Mind you I STILL think the answer is Jordan, but some of the people in this thread claiming LeBron isn't top five? What a joke.
Stern would cover for anything and everything Mike ordered and dabbled in. RIP David Stern.
yeah this is it. my personal preference is valuable career. lebron was the most dominant player on a championship team in his 17th nba season. that has not been beaten
LeBron is as special of player as Jordan is.
If that bothers you I'm not sure what to tell you.
You're free to disagree and argue otherwise.
Jordan is the sacred cow. None of those other guys are revered like Jordan is, so they're acceptable fodder in these conversations.
Casual numbers on the way to beating the then greatest team ever assembled. And that was 4 years ago.
I didn't check this series but I'll do so now: LeBron lead all players on either team in the 2020 NBA Finals in Points and Rebounds, was 2nd in Assists (Butler) and Steals (Butler), 3rd in blocks (AD, and barely behind Bam).
Oh, and he shot 39% from 3 and 58% from the field overall. Finna turn 36, btw.
Jimmy "biggest nemesis LeBron has ever seen" Buckets was out there gassed, looking like he was 5 years older than LeBron instead of 5 years younger. Meanwhile, LeBron don't fuckin get tired apparently. 40 in the previous game? Coulda had 40 tonight too if he wanted to press matters.
I was there. I grew up on the Bad Boy Pistons and became a huge MJ fan after he came back. LeBron is just generally a better player.
Well the hard rock casino is only about an hour drive from Orlando so.......
He would have cut ties with his family and friends so he didn't have anyone to miss while in the bubble
Jimmy should have simply just passed to the other top 5 player on his team so he wouldn't get tired
Casual numbers on the way to beating the then greatest team ever assembled. And that was 4 years ago.
I didn't check this series but I'll do so now: LeBron lead all players on either team in the 2020 NBA Finals in Points and Rebounds, was 2nd in Assists (Butler) and Steals (Butler), 3rd in blocks (AD, and barely behind Bam).
Oh, and he shot 39% from 3 and 58% from the field overall. Finna turn 36, btw.
Jimmy "biggest nemesis LeBron has ever seen" Buckets was out there gassed, looking like he was 5 years older than LeBron instead of 5 years younger. Meanwhile, LeBron don't fuckin get tired apparently. 40 in the previous game? Coulda had 40 tonight too if he wanted to press matters.
I was there. LeBron is just generally a better player.
Kareem, Bird, and Magic aren't sacred cows? Okay maybe I am only talking to people born after 2000.
I get your joke, but LeBron might literally be the greatest conditioned player in the history of basketball. He just...never gets tired. Ever.
I give the edge to Jordan still, but it's closer to a 1a and 1b sort of thing now. However, a couple more years of sustained excellence (another title or two, and perhaps an MVP) and I think LeBron can overtake Jordan. Ending his NBA career as the #1 all-time in points would be huge too.
LeBron still has a couple less championship rings and MVP awards than Jordan, and I think he has to close the gap in one or both of those to look better in the eyes of the majority. LeBron also has some black marks on his finals history that I think he needs to make up for (2011, for instance); however, I give him a pass for some of the finals losses because with context it's amazing that he even had some of those teams in a position to compete for a championship.
LeBron still has a couple less championship rings and MVP awards than Jordan, and I think he has to close the gap in one or both of those to look better in the eyes of the majority. LeBron also has some black marks on his finals history that I think he needs to make up for (2011, for instance); however, I give him a pass for some of the finals losses because with context it's amazing that he even had some of those teams in a position to compete for a championship.
