• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

blaze18

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
36
As someone else said. A lot of context. Well worth the watch.


You don't what a documentary is. Do you.

2235.jpg
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?
 
Nov 7, 2017
1,476
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?
No one is using just this documentary to presume his guilt. There's decades of evidence of him sleeping with little boys. Decades. The Chandler story. James and Wade and their stories (and the family). Omer Bhatti. Jonathan Spence. Gavin Arvizo. The guy was a pedophile - it's so obvious that to deny it is just wilful ignorance.
 

Kasey

Member
Nov 1, 2017
10,822
Boise
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?
A documentary isn't a fucking trial.

Look at the burden of proof you require and then ask yourself why it's so common for victims of rape to not want to come forward with their story. Hell, you've basically admitted that the only reason you haven't outright called them liars and disparaged their character is because you know you'll be banned for it.

You're part of the problem.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?
That's not how trials work. Also you're dangerously close to equating public opinion with the court of law, like so many MJ defenders do.

Let me ask,

How do you feel about MJ owning legalized (at the time) child porn, made by convicted pedophiles for pedophiles? And a photo of a boy in a bikini being pulled down?
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,117
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?
Just going to say the same as the last thread

You are defending a man who admitted to sleeping with kids in his own bed. Arguing he may or may not be a pedo seems like a bloody dumb hill to die on. Even if everything else turns out to be false, the dude is a full on creep who shouldn't be allowed near kids
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,672
earth
How do you feel about MJ owning legalized (at the time) child porn, made by convicted pedophiles for pedophiles? And a photo of a boy in a bikini being pulled down?
And he slept with little boys behind locked doors. And he was caught naked with at least one. And there are boys/men who claimed to have been raped by him. I mean the guy was clearly a pedophile.
 

blaze18

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
36
No one is using just this documentary to presume his guilt. There's decades of evidence of him sleeping with little boys. Decades. The Chandler story. James and Wade and their stories (and the family). Omer Bhatti. Jonathan Spence. Gavin Arvizo. The guy was a pedophile - it's so obvious that to deny it is just wilful ignorance.
And that's fair and was found not guilty(yes I know) but that's not my issue is you my first on this thread it was a reply about ignoring thing that didnt fit the narrative.

Let take Macaulay Culkin(I also know he didnt do it to him doesnt mean others)


Did sleep in same bed? Yes.and many others
Did send faxes to him? Most likely
Did he tape? nope
Did he separate him from his family? Idk maybe?

Now with that said

Was it grooming? Yup it normalizes that behavior
Was it sexual? nope
Is mj pedo? Pedo implies sex so no.

So now we have one side vs the other.

I'll add more in a bit. ..
 

ValiantChaos

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,112
I Do.

Let say mj was still alive and he got sent to trial but we only use this documentary to judge his whether he's guilty or not.and ignored everything not in it.

Do you think I would be a fair trial?

You could toss this documentary into the voice of space and there is still mountains of evidence he abused those boys. Even out of the list of the ones he interacted with all of them dont deny they slept in his bed with him in it. Am I supposed to believe that out of all these names that nothing happened between them and Michael over a 20 year time span?


Jonathan Spence
Jimmy Safechuck
Wade Robinson
Jason Francia
Brett Barnes
Macaulay Culkin
Jordan Chandler
Frank, Eddie and Dominic Casio
Michael Jacobshagen
Omer Bhatti
Gavin Arvizo
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
And that's fair and was found not guilty(yes I know) but that's not my issue is you my first on this thread it was a reply about ignoring thing that didnt fit the narrative.

Let take Macaulay Culkin(I also know he didnt do it to him doesnt mean others)


Did sleep in same bed? Yes.and many others
Did send faxes to him? Most likely
Did he tape? nope
Did he separate him from his family? Idk maybe?

Now with that said

Was it grooming? Yup it normalizes that behavior
Was it sexual? nope
Is mj pedo? Pedo implies sex so no.

So now we have one side vs the other.

I'll add more in a bit. ..
There are plenty of pedos who don't have sex with children.

In what way is a grown man sleeping alone with strange children not sexual?

I'll wait. Show me one example of a grown man earning the trust of children and their parents, with the goal of sleeping alone with them in the same bed, in a way that's not sexual.

Also this doc wasn't made to put MJ back on trial. It was simply to tell the accuser's stories.
 

blaze18

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
36
User Banned (permanent):Implying victims are lying, ignoring mod-post, account in junior phase
A documentary isn't a fucking trial.

Look at the burden of proof you require and then ask yourself why it's so common for victims of rape to not want to come forward with their story. Hell, you've basically admitted that the only reason you haven't outright called them liars and disparaged their character is because you know you'll be banned for it.

You're part of the problem.
Well I guess everyone that come forward is telling the truth.

I do believe everyone that come forward has the right for their case to be investigated though.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
MJ is a pedophile, I don't see how one can still deny that. Do I feel bad for him though? Sure. He certainly wasn't in a sound mental place at any time.

What do I think should happen?

I think the public needs to accept that he is guilty of what he's accused of and focus on why everything happened. I don't think this is the usual case of pedophilia.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
MJ is a pedophile, I don't see how one can still deny that. Do I feel bad for him though? Sure. He certainly wasn't in a sound mental place at any time.

What do I think should happen?

I think the public needs to accept that he is guilty of what he's accused of and focus on why everything happened. I don't think this is the usual case of pedophilia.
But why feel bad for someone who set up elaborate schemes to abuse children
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I was so skeptical of this documentary beforehand and now that I've seen it, I'm ashamed I ever doubted it.

People need to let go of their idol worship and admit what MJ was.

It's painful and it hurts fiercely to lose that connection we had to his music but what he did is unforgivable.
 
Nov 7, 2017
1,476
And that's fair and was found not guilty(yes I know) but that's not my issue is you my first on this thread it was a reply about ignoring thing that didnt fit the narrative.

Let take Macaulay Culkin(I also know he didnt do it to him doesnt mean others)


Did sleep in same bed? Yes.and many others
Did send faxes to him? Most likely
Did he tape? nope
Did he separate him from his family? Idk maybe?

Now with that said

Was it grooming? Yup it normalizes that behavior
Was it sexual? nope
Is mj pedo? Pedo implies sex so no.

So now we have one side vs the other.

I'll add more in a bit. ..
Sorry, this argument is like saying because a guy didn't murder person X he isn't guilty of murdering person Y. Numerous allegations have been made by multiple boys saying he DID molest them.

Macaulay Culkin is completely irrelevant. Just look at the facts - people aren't trying to randomly tarnish Jackson's legacy. Many of them are former fans such as myself who could not defend or justify his predatory behaviour. A simple read of his history with these boys already casts suspicion. Now they've come out and said he did it and you're trying to point at something else to distract from it.

Look up the Chandler mother's statements about him crying and trying to manipulate her to let Jordan sleep in his bed, same as he did with the Robsons and the Safechucks.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Of course this documentary wouldn't be a piece of evidence, but it can bring more attention to these incidents like how the R Kelly's documentary helped to bring a lot of things to light. More people willing to come out, people who aren't necessarily victims but those who were close to MJ and seen how creepy it all was.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,047
Of course this documentary wouldn't be a piece of evidence, but it can bring more attention to these incidents like how the R Kelly's documentary helped to bring a lot of things to light. More people willing to come out, people who aren't necessarily victims but those who were close to MJ and seen how creepy it all was.

People underestimate how much power a documentary has.

Remember Blackfish?
 

softie

Member
Oct 30, 2017
136
Nah. They knew full well what they were doing. They sacrificed their kids at the alter of fame and money.

Good good.
I also thought at first how silly the parents were but after digesting it a bit more I'm felling more empathy with them, but surely without taking the blame from them. It really is tricky.
I mean they weren't wealthy, that's what might make them more vulnerable to being manipulated by monetary means, I guess. But what the documentary conveyed was how they were manupulated to think that MJ was their son who needs help and they were the only ones who can help him. As silly as it may sound but they really thought they were the ones this billionaire chose as his new family and he made himself look so much in need of help that they thought they would be the giving/sacrificing part of the relationship. It's like when your oldest son would tell you constantly how bad he feels and how nice it would be to have his loving family around him. This untouchable star has descended to seek help from you, plays this role of a humbling infant and preaches how only you can bring joy into his lonely lonely life. And then you look how he behaves around other children and your own son. How your son admires his "older brother". It's not that they felt they gave her son into the hands of another man, it's that they felt they gave it to their own son. It's like your oldest son comes back home and goes into his old room to sleep in the bunk bed with his younger brother. It's soul crushing to know that this enormous amount of trust that was developed over a long time has been betrayed.
It's not that they sold their sons for money (e.g. Wade's mother didn't give her son away for one year although it surely would've gave her a nice bonus), it's that the one who manipulated and betrayed them and abused their children happens to be someone with a lot of money. They surely benefitted from that, no doubt about that, but it's more like a family drama where one member abuses the children and that happens constantly, primarily because you develop a deep and trustful relationship with the person. Yes they as the parents have the responsibility to make sure that their children are safe. But when you have family involved the responsibilities blur out a bit since you share the parenting with others. That's what you basically do as a parent when you give your children to their grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins and older siblings. You trust that their parenting is a fitting substitution for your parenting for the time that you're not around your children.
You could say that in this case the bonding was done too quickly and that the parents should've been more aware of the dropping hints that something wasn't right between the relationship of the boys and MJ. But in hindsight it's always like this in family dramas.

I'm still baffled how ruthless MJ was in getting the boys in his safezone; it really boggles the mind.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,155
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2019/03/paris-jackson-suicide-attempt-hospitalized

Saw yesterday TMZ reporting that Paris Jackson (michael's daughter) was hospitalized after attempted suicide, apparently that was a false story and she is fine. Which I'm really glad to hear. I can't even imagine what she or her 2 brothers must be going through.
So Michael Jackson's daughter didn't attempt suicide but you just wanted hop in and post expressing your concern for Michael's children in a thread based around children Michael groomed and raped?
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2019/03/paris-jackson-suicide-attempt-hospitalized

Saw yesterday TMZ reporting that Paris Jackson (michael's daughter) was hospitalized after attempted suicide, apparently that was a false story and she is fine. Which I'm really glad to hear. I can't even imagine what she or her 2 brothers must be going through.
Now imagine being raped when you're 7-12 by someone you loved and trusted/living with it for the rest of your life.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2019/03/paris-jackson-suicide-attempt-hospitalized

Saw yesterday TMZ reporting that Paris Jackson (michael's daughter) was hospitalized after attempted suicide, apparently that was a false story and she is fine. Which I'm really glad to hear. I can't even imagine what she or her 2 brothers must be going through.
Yeah, it must suck for them knowing the world knows their precious daddy liked having sex with adolescent boys. But they sure are doing all they can to silence the victims so that daddy's royalty money keeps flowing.
 

Mudcrab

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,415
This was a very difficult watch for me, all I can say is I can't fathom how someone could watch this documentary and walk away thinking Jackson is somehow the victim. Absolutely harrowing.
 

Jerm411

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,024
Clinton, MO
My wife finally finished it tonight...I had already watched it. She was in tears by the end of part 1.

She never thought Jackson was innocent but admittedly she didnt know a lot about the facts or the accusers. She came away convinced he did it 100%...

It's actually a more profound viewing on the second time....my heart truly breaks for those men and the other victims and certain members of each of their families, etc.
 

Tpallidum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,158
We look back now and see there were so many signs. I'm wondering if the concept of "grooming" was known then as it is known today. It must have been right? If it was, it doesn't seem to have been on people's minds.

Like are we just more aware of it today?
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
We look back now and see there were so many signs. I'm wondering if the concept of "grooming" was known then as it is known today. It must have been right? If it was, it doesn't seem to have been on people's minds.

Like are we just more aware of it today?
Nah we all knew back then (even i did, and i'm around the same age as Wade and James) everyone just turned a blind eye. By saying "ohh he's just weird" "ohh he didn't have a childhood" etc.
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
We look back now and see there were so many signs. I'm wondering if the concept of "grooming" was known then as it is known today. It must have been right? If it was, it doesn't seem to have been on people's minds.

Like are we just more aware of it today?
I'd say Thriller era Jackson, no one really thought he was weird. Also, back then, the public wasn't as aware of the process of grooming, of grooming whole families to get to the child.
 

Ocean Bones

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,725
We look back now and see there were so many signs. I'm wondering if the concept of "grooming" was known then as it is known today. It must have been right? If it was, it doesn't seem to have been on people's minds.

Like are we just more aware of it today?

Dude was mega rich and mega famous and this made him very powerful. He had an army of lawyers and fans spouting bullshit for him for years.
 

Modi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
766
The last few weeks have been a challenge for everyone who loves Michael. Many of you have been asking for an update from the Estate, and I have the following statement to share.

We want to start by again thanking all of Michael's fans and acknowledge and thank Michael's nephew, Taj, his niece, Brandi, and his brothers, Jackie, Marlon and Tito, Grace Rwaramba, Aaron Carter, Brett Barnes, Stephanie Mills and all of the other individuals around the world who have spoken out on his behalf. We also want to acknowledge those in the media who have done their job as journalists by reviewing the facts, noting how they were ignored in Leaving Neverland because it didn't fit into the filmmaker's one-sided agenda of denigrating Michael's legacy.

We also want to provide a brief update on our efforts, as well as share some thoughts with you from the past two weeks. We share your frustration and anger that a man who was found innocent in a court of law in life is being attacked, financially exploited and smeared by corporations and individuals who are only making claims now because he is no longer here to defend himself.

In addition to our public statements regarding our position on Leaving Neverland, our legal efforts continue. While it would not be prudent to publicly divulge our strategy and list our efforts, rest assured we are committed to holding HBO and Channel 4 accountable for their egregious, uncorroborated smear of Michael's legacy. Many of you have asked why we are seeking open arbitration. The answer is simple: we believe the public deserves to know how Leaving Neverland really came about, why no counter opinion was ever sought, why so many facts were ignored and why individuals were smeared who should have at a minimum been contacted to get the other side of the story. It is outrageous that such a one-sided smear was ever allowed on the air without challenge. We all know that if Michael was still alive it would never have been aired.

We also have other non-legal initiatives that we will disclose at the appropriate time. What is important for us, and always has been, is that we continue to take the long view as we have over the last decade. That means not doing anything rash that would give HBO, Channel 4, the film's director and, especially, the subjects of the film, what they most crave now. They want to engage in a way that focuses more attention on a film that has no doubt underperformed given that the media did everything in its power to sell this film to viewers. But given the enormous attention and free publicity the media gave this film, the numbers have clearly not matched the hype in the markets where it has aired, with many viewers opting to stop watching after the first part.

We recognize that the press often magnifies each affront related to this film. But from our view the actual impact of this documentary on the public and their behavior has not been as significant as the media want people to think. While some would like you to think otherwise, we can confirm that the consumption of Michael's music has not declined and his streaming numbers have not decreased in the wake of this documentary. This tells us that in addition to those of us who know the truth about Michael, those who may not understand Michael's eccentricities and the way he chose to live his life outside of society's norms are still choosing to appreciate and enjoy the art he created. We have licensees worldwide who are proudly selling Michael Jackson merchandise. We have insight into a significant amount of data that the fans do not see and we are working 24/7 behind the scenes to synthesize all that information and act accordingly.

We are also seeing a sharp disconnect between the reception of the film by everyday viewers and the mainstream media. Despite being outright propaganda, many viewers see through the one-sidedness, the over-the-top salacious claims, the staged dialogue and other dramatizations. They see that what Leaving Neverland boils down to is a sales job aimed at convincing viewers Michael Jackson isn't the man millions of people know and love, including the two subjects of the film and their families until they chose to sue for hundreds of millions of dollars. As people have had time to digest Leaving Neverland and review the facts, many are recognizing they can't take it at face value. We are especially proud of Michael's fans and those who continue to stand up for him by pointing out the numerous inconsistencies and flaws in the film. Numerous individuals who have studied every facet of these cases has poked numerous holes in the stories of the two subjects. Some critics and individuals are now courageously admitting publicly that, having studied the facts, their view of the film changed 180 degrees.

Michael Jackson cannot be silenced, and neither can his fans, whether it is those who proudly play his music in public squares to show their support, the coffee shop owner in New Zealand who played his songs all day long in protest of Leaving Neverland or those who put posters and signs around cities proclaiming his innocence. As Michael predicted 25 years ago, the truth will be his salvation.

The Estate of Michael Jackson

Thank you for your continued support of Michael and his legacy.


The Estate of Michael Jackson