I need to ask why do some of the crazy fans discredit Wade so much? Is based solely on the fact he testified twice, as that's explained in the documentary? Or is it because he tried to sue the estate after Jackson had died?
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Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes
- Thread starter Brian McDoogle
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MJ fans "I LOVE THE LEADER"
It's explained in the doc why why he testified twice. And then in the Oprah special why he's suing.
The cultists try to discredit him, because he's besmirching their god.
It's disgusting how many people on Twitter refuse to see MJ in a negative light.
These stories are horrifying.
These stories are horrifying.
So you don't think Michael groomed and abused several small boys?
I don't really listen to MJ's music so I'm not a fan but I still didn't come away from Leaving Neverland feeling convinced (though I just watched the first part). I'm not saying he definitely wasn't guilty but the documentary seemed to prioritize emotion over evidence.
How much evidence would you need other then multiple testimonials, documented patterns of predatory behaviour, admission of said behavior from MJ himself, his lawyers doing everything they can to hide certain evidence from being seen etc?
Most child abuse cases wouldn't have any more evidence then that because serial abusers are usually very careful. Now add on the fame and fortune to do whatever you want and you have the recipe for someone to get away with anything.
Based on what people were saying here I was expecting some riveting slam you in the face drama, but what I experienced was just an extremely matter-of-fact telling of what happened that slowly ate away at me as it progressed. I didn't feel like it went for over the top emotional theatrics at all.
This is only after part 1 I might add. I'll be watching part 2 within the next few hours.
it's on you to recognize the reality that is slapping you in the face. the documentary assumes you are rational and is there to detail exactly how a predator like that operates. it's not there to hold your hand.
like.you watched all that and you have doubt? why would they be lying if they arent getting paid?
the lack of common sense is just infuriating.
It's not that surprising when one of the two in this documentary said he still loved MJ after realising he'd been abused by him and the other one is conflicted.
I mean, only if they were deprived of their childhoods because that would mean they have the innocence of a child and bare no ill will.
Hasnt their been a solid amount of evidence pointing to the person behind the documentary telling lies ?
Dont come at my neck, I am simply in the dark
Dont come at my neck, I am simply in the dark
He's an Emmy, Bafta award winning director. But I'm sure Jackson furthers will trash his name, as they did to Jordie Chandler.
I'm not going to come at you, but surely you could have done some research before dropping this?
If the evidence is solid, it shouldn't be hard to find and confirm.
Here's a short video to watch if you want to hear that side, he's a multi award winning investigative journalist
Lol I mean I was asking a question, whats the point of me stating ignorance on the matter and then someone asking me why im ignorant? Its a topic regarding the issue with people who clearly know whats going on with solid info to back up whatever side it may be.
Edit: Changed the wording cause felt like I came off as a bit rude lol. Still think somewhat of the point stands. Was asking cause last time I was in this thread it was multiple people bringing up stuff surrounding people behind the film not being reputable so I was curious
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Thanks for the link, ill check it out now
Edit: It being from a clear MJ fan youtube makes it very suspect lol
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That was rough...
The poor kids didn't even have time to process what was going on at the time; and the impact of MJ's stardom was just too big for them to turn their backs, even after all those years.
It's hard even to imagine how their brains processed that:
- Meeting the most famous person in the world
- Having him want to be your friend
- Sharing in his personal life
- Go to his house which happens to be an amazing private theme park
- Get to do whatever you want as long as you are with him
At 7 years old!!
The vitriol for the victims is disgusting.
Has Macaulay Culkin ever commented on any of this?
The poor kids didn't even have time to process what was going on at the time; and the impact of MJ's stardom was just too big for them to turn their backs, even after all those years.
It's hard even to imagine how their brains processed that:
- Meeting the most famous person in the world
- Having him want to be your friend
- Sharing in his personal life
- Go to his house which happens to be an amazing private theme park
- Get to do whatever you want as long as you are with him
At 7 years old!!
The vitriol for the victims is disgusting.
Has Macaulay Culkin ever commented on any of this?
Jesus what a bizarre and absolute disgustig documentary was this.
I know when i was young he use to scare me when i saw him on tv.
I always hated his music so for me there is not much lost. The best thing he ever did for me was dying on my birthday
I know when i was young he use to scare me when i saw him on tv.
I always hated his music so for me there is not much lost. The best thing he ever did for me was dying on my birthday
You have a young daughter.
She goes to new school. There's one massively popular teacher in the school that all the kids like and think are cool, everyone wants to be his favourite. You know about this and the teacher, he's in his 30's and seems friendly, and you're happy someone so nice is working at the school, but your daughter doesn't share a class with him which you think is a shame.
One day your daughter comes home and says that her teacher had been sick, so the coolest teacher ever stood in for all her classes that day. She's so excited and tells you the story of how he said she was her favourite and that he'd like her to come to some extra-curricular classes for some one-on-one tuition. "How fantastic!" you say and eagerly sign the forms. Every day after school your daughter and the teacher will spend a few hours together learning. You meet the teacher and talk about your daughter and how great she is. Things seem to be going well.
One day your daughter forgets her phone so you run to school to drop it off when she's doing the after school class with the teacher. When you open the door a beeping alarm is going off and the teacher explains he has an alarm system so he knows whenever anyone might be coming close to the classroom.
A few weeks go by and one evening the teacher calls home. You say hello and ask what the matter might be, but he just wants to talk to your daughter. You hand over the phone and they spend a couple of hours talking. A few days later he calls again, the same thing. Then the next day, and soon it became a daily occurrence. The teacher and your daughter spend hours talking.
One day a letter comes through the door from the teacher, referring to your daughter as "little one" and asking if she could please send him a message because he's lonely. He says he loves her and that he misses her, that he wants all the best for her future and that he'll help her get there. Soon the letters and phone calls become frequent and he's also calling her other nicknames like "applehead" and telling her how happy she makes him.
Then one day he shows up to the house for dinner. So you all have dinner together, and you go to sit and talk. Soon the teacher just wants to play with your daughter and they go to her room. Over the next few months he comes round for dinner a number of times and eventually likes to stay the night in your daughters room.
Years go by, your daughter becomes an adult and eventually tells you that the teacher raped her repeatedly over the course of his time with her.
It's alright though because the teacher said he slept on the floor.
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like, at what point would you have pulled the plug?
That's without even coming close to the power dynamics, wealth power and influence on display, the fact it was with numerous small boys and not touching many of the most insidious aspects.
I'm still stunned that so many persist in outright refusing to acknowledge even the most obvious elements of grooming and abuse.
She goes to new school. There's one massively popular teacher in the school that all the kids like and think are cool, everyone wants to be his favourite. You know about this and the teacher, he's in his 30's and seems friendly, and you're happy someone so nice is working at the school, but your daughter doesn't share a class with him which you think is a shame.
One day your daughter comes home and says that her teacher had been sick, so the coolest teacher ever stood in for all her classes that day. She's so excited and tells you the story of how he said she was her favourite and that he'd like her to come to some extra-curricular classes for some one-on-one tuition. "How fantastic!" you say and eagerly sign the forms. Every day after school your daughter and the teacher will spend a few hours together learning. You meet the teacher and talk about your daughter and how great she is. Things seem to be going well.
One day your daughter forgets her phone so you run to school to drop it off when she's doing the after school class with the teacher. When you open the door a beeping alarm is going off and the teacher explains he has an alarm system so he knows whenever anyone might be coming close to the classroom.
A few weeks go by and one evening the teacher calls home. You say hello and ask what the matter might be, but he just wants to talk to your daughter. You hand over the phone and they spend a couple of hours talking. A few days later he calls again, the same thing. Then the next day, and soon it became a daily occurrence. The teacher and your daughter spend hours talking.
One day a letter comes through the door from the teacher, referring to your daughter as "little one" and asking if she could please send him a message because he's lonely. He says he loves her and that he misses her, that he wants all the best for her future and that he'll help her get there. Soon the letters and phone calls become frequent and he's also calling her other nicknames like "applehead" and telling her how happy she makes him.
Then one day he shows up to the house for dinner. So you all have dinner together, and you go to sit and talk. Soon the teacher just wants to play with your daughter and they go to her room. Over the next few months he comes round for dinner a number of times and eventually likes to stay the night in your daughters room.
Years go by, your daughter becomes an adult and eventually tells you that the teacher raped her repeatedly over the course of his time with her.
It's alright though because the teacher said he slept on the floor.
—
like, at what point would you have pulled the plug?
That's without even coming close to the power dynamics, wealth power and influence on display, the fact it was with numerous small boys and not touching many of the most insidious aspects.
I'm still stunned that so many persist in outright refusing to acknowledge even the most obvious elements of grooming and abuse.
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Not sure what to believe in terms of what MJ did or not with the little that ive seen(Aka just being some stuff in this thread, havent watched the doc) . Though like if he did in any capacity then yea throw the whole thing out and we need to grow a lot as a society. If anyone in this thread has tried to defend those horrible acts in anyway thats insane.
Hearing of just some of the weird ass shit that he did, like a fake wedding though... thats not okay in anyway
Hearing of just some of the weird ass shit that he did, like a fake wedding though... thats not okay in anyway
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Finally watched the full 4 hours.
Feel terrible for the 2 guys and all the other people he abused.
Not only because of what happened but because of he nutcase fans who will be harassing them right now. I've ran into a few on twitter and they are so fucking stupid it's scary.
In my social circle if anyone defends this beast after seeing the documentary then Im just saying to them "get the fuck away from me you idiot"
Feel terrible for the 2 guys and all the other people he abused.
Not only because of what happened but because of he nutcase fans who will be harassing them right now. I've ran into a few on twitter and they are so fucking stupid it's scary.
In my social circle if anyone defends this beast after seeing the documentary then Im just saying to them "get the fuck away from me you idiot"
Hmm yea good point. That entire narrative of MJ being a sweet, kind soul who just loved every child and wanted to be peter pan and never grow up because he didn't have a childhood and was a pure innocent angel who doesn't have sex is probably the creepiest shit ever and it's weird as fuck how the public just rolled with that.
I like MJ a lot, I saw him live once.
I have not watched it due to work but I have the HBO verion to watch on the weekend as the UK was cut.
I am going in with an open mind, I just hope with the reactions (I ditched him when the first trial happened as I thought it was messed up, but I have to admit the music and the what happened in the trials pulled me back to liking the music) that nothing bogus comes out about the doc.
There are many docs that later in time shown to be inaccurate or just plain lies, and I hope if there was real abuse then no disservice is done to the victims.
If its all true then fuck the guy, but as I said in another thread Polanski's films are always on TV and he was actually convicted, is it not an art/artist case?
I mean I ditched Polanski as soon as I read the court transcripts and the Don Simpson biography, but i still think Rosemary's baby and Frantic are great flicks.
Absoloute 80s played Jackson this morning and I was absently mindedly tapping along to it.
People determined to look the other way accepting any excuse they can. As mentioned above whenever the "he said he slept on the floor" line comes out my eyes practically detach.
I mean I think stuff like polanski still being supported by the playing of his films is a sign of how immature we are as a society and a country. We value random pieces of art, rather than actual people and what they have been through. Its strange and evil, but its so widely accepted.
Its something I dont have the answers for on how to fix and I am worried as a society we will never mature enough to realize the power of giving a terrible persons work a platform and how that enables them and other abusers
Michael Jackson is one of those cases where I genuinely don't know what to think. Intelligent, well researched people have made compelling arguments on both sides. What both sides can certainly agree upon, however, is that Michael Jackson was a troubled man. The way he behaved around children was deeply questionable. No doubt.
Where there is smoke, there is fire. The allegations come up again and again. Sure, there has always been a whiff of opportunism. But it is important that people don't blind themselves because they want to believe in someone's innocence. I think any sensible person can conclude that there was something not quite right with the man, and that he was cunning. He crafted an image of himself that he hid behind. There's no denying that. Remember Moonwalker? Great film. Smooth Criminal is an amazing song. Amazing video. But it's fundamentally about the evil Joe Pesci who wants to stop prayer in schools and get kids hooked on drugs. And Michael Jackson, savior of children everywhere, dances his way through one of the greatest music videos of all time, and then turns into a robot to vanquish evil, and then metaphorically comes back from the dead to keep hanging out with what seem to be orphaned children.
Michael Jackson is considered one of the greatest performers of all time for a reason. His work is near peerless. Just incredible. But it's more than his music. People want to believe the man is innocent of these terrible accusations because MJ was an icon of goodwill, of kindness, of compassion. Of childlike innocence. We understand and accept that someone like David Bowie had sex with 13/14 year old girls and while we disapprove, we are talking about a man whose moral character was never held in any great regard. Same with the Rolling Stones. We all knew they were of shit-tier moral character. The Eagles, too.
MJ was different. He's a hero to millions. It couldn't be true, right? Not Michael, surely!? What has always derailed the accusations around MJ is that his accusers have been of questionable character. (Although this is sometimes exaggerated.) One can easily make the case many of them were opportunists. That was always the go-to defense.
Conrad Murray claimed in his memoir that Michael Jackson wanted to marry a 13 year old, and that he was obsessed with the then-11 year old Emma Watson, even keeping a cardboard cutout of her in his home. People dismissed his claims out of hand because... well, because he's Conrad Murray and his book was a bunch of bizarre, self-aggrandizing weirdness.
But let's be honest here. If Janet Jackson was sleeping in a bed with a variety of little girls for years, and her eccentric doctor claimed that Janet had wanted to find a way to marry tweenage Daniel Radcliffe, there would be a shitload of eyebrow raising. And it wouldn't have taken this long to gain momentum. Janet never had that "I'm just a child, innocent and misunderstood just like Peter Pan!" thing that Michael had. A grown women named Janet Jackson likes to sleep with her body wrapped around little girls? Gee, that's uh... a little odd, huh? Michael as a person always managed to dodge outright confrontation. There was never a time when interviewers were willing to genuinely press the man on his relationships. Because he was the King of Pop. And literally any pressure would be interpreted as a witch hunt and MJ would probably write a song about how mean you were to him.
Yes, the tabloids were cruel to Michael Jackson. Some of the rumours directed at him were malicious and obviously untrue. But there was always that whiff of a cult where MJ is the wellspring of truth and knowledge and the free press was invariably out to get him.
Where there is smoke, there is fire. The allegations come up again and again. Sure, there has always been a whiff of opportunism. But it is important that people don't blind themselves because they want to believe in someone's innocence. I think any sensible person can conclude that there was something not quite right with the man, and that he was cunning. He crafted an image of himself that he hid behind. There's no denying that. Remember Moonwalker? Great film. Smooth Criminal is an amazing song. Amazing video. But it's fundamentally about the evil Joe Pesci who wants to stop prayer in schools and get kids hooked on drugs. And Michael Jackson, savior of children everywhere, dances his way through one of the greatest music videos of all time, and then turns into a robot to vanquish evil, and then metaphorically comes back from the dead to keep hanging out with what seem to be orphaned children.
Michael Jackson is considered one of the greatest performers of all time for a reason. His work is near peerless. Just incredible. But it's more than his music. People want to believe the man is innocent of these terrible accusations because MJ was an icon of goodwill, of kindness, of compassion. Of childlike innocence. We understand and accept that someone like David Bowie had sex with 13/14 year old girls and while we disapprove, we are talking about a man whose moral character was never held in any great regard. Same with the Rolling Stones. We all knew they were of shit-tier moral character. The Eagles, too.
MJ was different. He's a hero to millions. It couldn't be true, right? Not Michael, surely!? What has always derailed the accusations around MJ is that his accusers have been of questionable character. (Although this is sometimes exaggerated.) One can easily make the case many of them were opportunists. That was always the go-to defense.
Conrad Murray claimed in his memoir that Michael Jackson wanted to marry a 13 year old, and that he was obsessed with the then-11 year old Emma Watson, even keeping a cardboard cutout of her in his home. People dismissed his claims out of hand because... well, because he's Conrad Murray and his book was a bunch of bizarre, self-aggrandizing weirdness.
But let's be honest here. If Janet Jackson was sleeping in a bed with a variety of little girls for years, and her eccentric doctor claimed that Janet had wanted to find a way to marry tweenage Daniel Radcliffe, there would be a shitload of eyebrow raising. And it wouldn't have taken this long to gain momentum. Janet never had that "I'm just a child, innocent and misunderstood just like Peter Pan!" thing that Michael had. A grown women named Janet Jackson likes to sleep with her body wrapped around little girls? Gee, that's uh... a little odd, huh? Michael as a person always managed to dodge outright confrontation. There was never a time when interviewers were willing to genuinely press the man on his relationships. Because he was the King of Pop. And literally any pressure would be interpreted as a witch hunt and MJ would probably write a song about how mean you were to him.
Yes, the tabloids were cruel to Michael Jackson. Some of the rumours directed at him were malicious and obviously untrue. But there was always that whiff of a cult where MJ is the wellspring of truth and knowledge and the free press was invariably out to get him.
I immediately started changing my mind upon hearing the voicemails he left for James and his mock interview with James after leaving Hawaii, which is early in the documentary and all part of the grooming process.
There are photo, audio, and video evidence, so it's not just eyewitness accounts.
He's very clear he was not the subject of any sexual advances from Michael - in his own words 'it was a normal friendship'.
However, he has corroborated visiting the 'secret room' and pointing out the 'ding-dong' alarm (although this isn't new information in of itself and has been mentioned in previous documentaries about Neverland).
Brett Barnes has also categorically denied any sexual contact - and for me, the biggest mistake of the film-makers is not getting him on and having his side of the story after intimating a relationship took place.
Just finished up watching via ch4. Damn, those last 20mins or so where they both explain how they opened up to their family. I'm sure Michael was friends with children without abuse happening, but that does not prove there is no way he did what is shown in this doc. I fully believe these two men, and maybe more will be able to open up now.
Yeah, that's the story that really got me, the way he reacts to the jewellery, it's horrible to watch.
Yeah, I don't think a 7 year old can process those sorts of things, imagine being a kid and meeting your idol, it would do very strange things to you, and the parents are suspect as hell for letting it happen but I suspect in that moment, at that time they were also star struck and swept away with it all and let their kid who seemed happy to be around MJ stay with MJ, I mean after having him in your home you would feel like you know him.
I also suspect Macaulay Culkin was guarded better by his parents/people around him to not let MJ have that unfettered access to him.
You are not entitled to be given shit. It's clear from this post that you have no understanding of sexual assault and how most of these cases have no substantial "proof" - cartainly not any from something that happened decades ago. What we do have is a real and haunting confession from men who's childhood has been taken away from them.
I've watched part 2 now and the Oprah show as well and I have to agree that the latter is just as important to watch as the documentary itself. I hope these two can work through all of this and find some peace, especially James. Wade does seem to be further along in coming to terms with this but he's still clearly struggling with it. You can really see though, especially on the Oprah show, how uncomfortable James is in his own skin right now and how much weight he's carrying from the trauma of it all and the depression it has caused. Divulging such intimate personal detail to a professional in a private environment must be hard enough, let alone doing so for the whole World.
It's truly awful how willing people are to go to bat for Jackson when even looking at the undisputed facts about his conduct and the way he lived his life, there are fucking red flags everywhere.
It's truly awful how willing people are to go to bat for Jackson when even looking at the undisputed facts about his conduct and the way he lived his life, there are fucking red flags everywhere.
Michael Jackson seems like a pedophile in denial, trying to do his best to convince others and himself that he wasn't harming children. In his own way he was convincing himself that he still had the mind of a child and therefore his interactions with children were appropriate.
Also children can be sexual. Even if you want to buy the idea that he was a 12 year old trapped in the body of a 30 year old man (which I don't, just playing devils advocate) and that's why he had sleepovers and hung around children, is it that much of a stretch that sexual experimentation (which would still be incredibly inappropriate and reprehensible, because he's a grown man no matter how much he wants to deny it) of some kind would occur?
I am sure when I watch it it wil totally paint a picture, like I siad I am open minded now, the evidence helps by the sounds of it.
It's almost like Wade is using the coping mechanism MJ taught him of shelving his feelings. Poor guy.
Sam Smyth felt uncomfortable enough about it he tried to get a note to Jimmy asking if he had been abducted:
https://www.thejournal.ie/michael-jackson-finding-neverland-sam-smyth-4529933-Mar2019/
That is ironic in more ways than one considering how that place self-detonated.
I was never sexually abused but I had therapists that were either impressed or annoyed how detached and emotionally neutral or even amused I was when I recounted traumatizing events from childhood. It's very likely that if you're always told to "take it how it is", "You're too weak-minded, you can't endure anything" , "don't cry or everyone will think bad about us/call the child services", when the adults outright tell you that they can't and won't help you but that you have to help THEM to keep their problematic behavior secret or otherwise you wob't be loved by them anymore or your & their life will be destroyed, you'll basically become like this.
Remember that MJ fans harassed Jordy Chandeler to the point he wouldn't go to school and guns were fired outside his home. Also the sheer fact he's in hiding to avoid the mass mob all these years later.
There's no reasoning with fans of his music, they are blindsided by an affection and are in complete denial cause they just simply don't want to believe someone who created such positive messages in their songs and made catchy tunes could have raped these children.
There's no reasoning with fans of his music, they are blindsided by an affection and are in complete denial cause they just simply don't want to believe someone who created such positive messages in their songs and made catchy tunes could have raped these children.
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