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feyder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,156
Up to you, it's affected my ability to though speaking for myself. Hearing Thriller and Bad would remind me that he gave the jacket and gloves away to little boys he raped. Hearing the music in general just doesn't work for me, because it's so intertwined with these kids seeing him as an idol and emulating him before being groomed and abused by him.
Yeah, I wasn't sure how much this would affect my experience with his music, but just someone mentioning listening to Beat It on the radio made me feel incredibly uncomfortable with the thought of anyone still enjoying the work of someone like him. I don't think I can listen to his music again.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
I've been MJ did it since 2003 and remember on several occasions being shot down and attacked even when I mentioned how weird he was and that I believed he was a pedo. Guy was the most obvious pedo. Never bought into that stupid narrative that he is just being nice and is lonely and wants a friend cause you know damn well if some weirdo started speaking to ya kids and was like "let's be friend you can sleep over at my house" when he is fucking 30 years old you would have that guy brought in for questioning. Period. Typical stupid fucking group think by idiot fans. Really am not the slightest bit surprised but am rolling my eyes people are even acting 1% shocked by this.

I'm with you on this. My mind hasn't been changed in any way by all of this, it's stuff I already thought. What it did (without me even watching the doc yet) was ground just how the abuse affected the victims. I probably told my share of Michael jackson pedo jokes back in the day, but now I feel gross about that.

On a side note, I'm pretty disgusted not just by the defenders, but by the way the concept of truth has eroded over my lifetime. When I was a kid it was "cigarettes might not be bad for you" and ever since there have always been forces to sow doubt with "how can we know for sure" and "two sides" and "you can't trust x because of y" about just about anything. And people will line up to believe it.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,895
Should I stop liking his music? I never cared for his personal life.
I still like his music, but I can't respect the person who made it.

I find it easier to enjoy music without thinking about the person who made it versus a tv show or a movie. Like its hard for me to enjoy the Cosby show because Dr. Huxtable will be explaining the importance saving money and its hard to focus on the show or what he is saying when you see his stupid rapist face trying to be funny.

I don't think there is a right answer on this though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
I did. The man was clearly sick, and it's my opinion that while he was very obviously a dangerous emotional predator, any sexual abuse should not be tried in the court of public opinion as there are just as many people who have spoken up for the man.
People who spoke up for him were groomed to lie. Now that they're adults, they're feeling the impact of his mental and sexual abuse. And then you have another guy who said Michael tried it all on him too. Are they all lying? The last guy I mentioned isn't out for money or fame. He merely told his story.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,024
I did. The man was clearly sick, and it's my opinion that while he was very obviously a dangerous emotional predator, any sexual abuse should not be tried in the court of public opinion as there are just as many people who have spoken up for the man.
Were those people there when he was sleeping with children night after night? Literally all we have is our opinion. The man's dead. He's not facing any punishment. His victims are the ones still living with this.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Trial by emotive media isn't the way to do this.

I've stood in a court as a victim. I've had to explain what happened facing a jury. There were 4 of us.

The accused was found guilty of two incidences, undecided on one and not guilty on the last. He was put into on a list whilst the four of us were left in a strange position of why did they believe me and not them.

Jacko was as mad as a hatter, but the evidence wasn't there back in the day. I hope this program causes more people to come forward like the Savile case and a new investigation is opened.

If it doesnt, then lots.of people will be left in a strange position.
You didn't answer either of my questions:

1. Did you watch the doc/interview?
2. Do you think the two accusers are lying?

These two questions have absolutely nothing to do with juries and trials. You're conflating public opinion with the court of law.

If you feel like they're lying, you have to do some mental gymnastics to get there, if you've seen the doc and interview.
 

opus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,296
Like its hard for me to enjoy the Cosby show because Dr. Huxtable will be explaining the importance saving money and its hard to focus on the show or what he is saying when you see his stupid rapist face trying to be funny.

Watching that episode where Dr. Huxtable makes his "special" barbecue sauce that gets all the wives "in the mood" is...yeesh
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,291
The man was clearly mentally ill and should've been in a hospital

Honestly, I don't know if I buy his childlike BS. The man was paying off the families of his victims so they wouldn't narc on him. That's pretty detailed covering up, not something a kid does. Molesters all have public masks on. MJ's was to come off like Peter Pan.

On a side note, I'm pretty disgusted not just by the defenders, but by the way the concept of truth has eroded over my lifetime. When I was a kid it was "cigarettes might not be bad for you" and ever since there have always been forces to sow doubt with "how can we know for sure" and "two sides" and "you can't trust x because of y" about just about anything. And people will line up to believe it.

The Slow Burn podcast about Watergate did an episode on conspiracy theories because the number of people who reported believing in conspiracies jumped by a pretty massive degree after Watergate (since that was a conspiracy that did, in fact, go all the way to the top). I think people want to come off like they have some inside knowledge; that they don't need to just passively accept things. It's a dangerous sense of individualism to say that we should have a say about the truth in all things. But people don't wanna hear that they really just don't have any way of understanding a topic, and that they should listen to others about it (the cigarette thing you mentioned is this. My dad swore they weren't really worse than a candy bar. He was a day laborer with a high school diploma, and he claimed there was no "real science" to support that they were unhealthy. Just baffling. )
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Honestly, I don't know if I buy his childlike BS. The man was paying off the families of his victims so they wouldn't narc on him. That's pretty detailed covering up, not something a kid does. Molesters all have public masks on. MJ's was to come off like Peter Pan.
I think the fact that Peter Pan Syndrome is not a thing if often glossed over. People react to trauma in a different ways, but there always been this narrative of "well of course, you see he never had a childhood", and this is not how any of that work, at all.
And I don't know, I'm not an expert, but I don't think people who has that serious of behavioral problems are usually able to run a multi-million dollar business.

And I think that narrative in the media really helped normalize his behavior.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I think the fact that Peter Pan Syndrome is not a thing if often glossed over. People react to trauma in a different ways, but there always been this narrative of "well of course, you see he never had a childhood", and this is not how any of that work, at all.
And I don't know, I'm not an expert, but I don't think people who has that serious of behavioral problems are usually able to run a multi-million dollar business.

And I think that narrative in the media really helped normalize his behavior.
But he's just like Peter Pan. You know if Peter Pan were a child grooming abuser.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,454
Florida
I will say, seeing this thread juxtaposed with the Vic Mignogna thread really does highlight how much people will cape for someone accused of sexual abuse based solely on their personal admiration for the individual.
 

Alienous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,606
The thing about the documentary is even putting the alleged sexual abuse aside Michael Jackson's conduct is indefensible. Trying to seperate children from their parents for long periods of time, being alone with a child in any room behind a locked door - such that a parent would have to knock and wait, heaping adoration on one child then moving on to another. It's clear he didn't care what relationships he damaged to get his way.
 

Ars Arcanum

alt account
Banned
Feb 3, 2019
290
I don't know what to think. I feel numb. What struck me pretty early on in the doc (talking part 1) was the fact that they had receipts for almost every point of discussion, (videos, pictures) especially with safechuck, like with MJ in his house in his pajamas. Or the audio of the conversation they had where he's interviewing Jackson and you can hear the relationship between the two especially when he points out the way he talked to him as if he was in love, which gives weight and context to an otherwise "innocent" conversation. I want to believe he was just misunderstood but it's really really hard when you see how incredibly close he got (partly due to the fault of the parents).
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I don't know what to think. I feel numb. What struck me pretty early on in the doc (talking part 1) was the fact that they had receipts for almost every point of discussion, (videos, pictures) especially with safechuck, like with MJ in his house in his pajamas. Or the audio of the conversation they had where he's interviewing Jackson and you can hear the relationship between the two especially when he points out the way he talked to him as if he was in love, which gives weight and context to an otherwise "innocent" conversation. I want to believe he was just misunderstood but it's really really hard when you see how incredibly close he got (partly due to the fault of the parents).
But his abuse is already out in the open, before you get to the sexual assault allegations. Admitting to sleeping in bed with many children. Isolating them from their families. Grooming children, staying with them at their own house to the point where one of the accuser's mother calls him her own son. The fax conversations.

The child abuse is already factual.
 

Prattle

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
995
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing sexual abuse allegations as witch hunts
You didn't answer either of my questions:

1. Did you watch the doc/interview?
2. Do you think the two accusers are lying?

These two questions have absolutely nothing to do with juries and trials. You're conflating public opinion with the court of law.

If you feel like they're lying, you have to do some mental gymnastics to get there, if you've seen the doc and interview.

Yes of course I watched the interview.

How am I supposed to know if they're lying or not? I can only go with the evidence that's been provided.

Court of law everytime. Public opinion leads to witch hunts.

 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
I love the argument "he's dead, he can't defend himself"

Like that means anything. If he was alive then he would be a living lying pedo cunt as opposed to a dead one.
 

thatother

Member
Dec 12, 2017
345
What amazes me is how both of the moms said it didn't ring any alarm bells when he started doing this stuff.

Either because of his immense star power or because of how much he acted like a little kid he was able to get away with this shit right under the parents noses.

You can even see it here, years after he's been dead. Believe accuser's, unless he wrote Thriller apparently.
 

Ebullientprism

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
Yes of course I watched the interview.

How am I supposed to know if they're lying or not? I can only go with the evidence that's been provided.

Court of law everytime. Public opinion leads to witch hunts.


Nobody is asking you to testify in a court. He asked you for your opinion. You watched the documentary. In your opinion, were they lying? Its a simple question. Yes or no.

And if you think they are lying, which parts do you think they lied about? Because even aside from the sexual abuse, the rest of the stuff is monstrous too.

Honest to god though, if you are gonna come back with "I havent seen the whole documentary yet", I am genuinely reporting your bullshit to a mod.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,116
Wow, this thread really took a turn. I read through the first 15 pages and people were vehemently arguing back and forth on the subject. These last two pages are simply "Yup, he did it."

I watched Part 1, but so far the documentary is kinda boring, and just going through the details and timeline of the abuse. Part 2 must be the clincher, huh?

I thought the general consensus was basically always that he most likely did it, just that a lot of people didn't want to think about it too hard because they like his music.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
Might watch this tonight but I expect it's heavy asf.

The Slow Burn podcast about Watergate did an episode on conspiracy theories because the number of people who reported believing in conspiracies jumped by a pretty massive degree after Watergate (since that was a conspiracy that did, in fact, go all the way to the top). I think people want to come off like they have some inside knowledge; that they don't need to just passively accept things. It's a dangerous sense of individualism to say that we should have a say about the truth in all things. But people don't wanna hear that they really just don't have any way of understanding a topic, and that they should listen to others about it (the cigarette thing you mentioned is this. My dad swore they weren't really worse than a candy bar. He was a day laborer with a high school diploma, and he claimed there was no "real science" to support that they were unhealthy. Just baffling. )
There's some really exciting neuroscience work that hints at why people fucking love conspiracy theories.

The thrust of the findings are that the human brain is evolved to get endorphin hits for making "parallel connections".

E.g. "if I plant seeds in the spring, they will bloom in late summer". Your brain makes that connection of two parallel ideas/observations and gets an actual kick out of it: making a logical, useful connection that spans space or time gives you an actual hit.

It's an evolutionary quirk that has helped us survive and maybe develop consciousness. "Plan ahead, think more broadly to make logical connections, and you'll be rewarded." There's an actual positive reinforcement mechanism in your brain to promote this kind of lateral-connective thought.

But in the 20th century, as the personal and global world became complex and broad to an unprecedented level, our wiring for these "wide connections" basically went... haywire.

Becoming obsessed with conspiracy theories is literally your brain's "lateral connection reward mechanism" making seemingly-logical connections where no such connections exist, and you constantly getting satisfying endorphin hits off them. Your brain thinks its smart and doing well, and it rewards you for that.

The base angle of the neuroscience was looking at the right and left hemispheres of the brain and how they operate. The gist is that one hemisphere is "linear" thought (in the moment, meditative, reactive) and the other is "parallel" thought (long-term, connective, cause and effect). The "parallel", "logical" part of your brain can get tripped up on itself in many ways, including this.
 

WorldofMiku

attempted ban circumvention by using an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
824
This is heartbreaking. Still going to listen to his music but...just what an absolute shame.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Yes of course I watched the interview.

How am I supposed to know if they're lying or not? I can only go with the evidence that's been provided.

Court of law everytime. Public opinion leads to witch hunts.


Congrats on contributing to the silence of victims.

I asked if you think they are lying, not if you know. Way to dodge my question for a second time.

Why is it that all these shitty defenders won't answer my basic questions?

Why do they disappear or get banned?

Hmm
This is it.
 

Androidsleeps

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,598
I finished part 1 today. It was hard to watch at some parts. The most insane part was how the family was ok with leaving their child alone with a grown stranger for days, especially in those days when there were no cellphones and instant ways of communication! Most parents I think wouldn't leave a 7 year old alone in a different country with a like distant cousin, much less a complete stranger who you know nothing about how they live their private lives. Even if you trust that sexual abuse is not a remote possibility, you don't know what might happen, whether this stranger does durgs or drink heavily or gets sick of being with the child for a while and become verbally abusive or leave them unsupervised or or or. It goes to show how power and wealth can blind some people. And the fact that even after he suggests to the mother to leave her child with him for a YEAR, it didn't set off alarms in her head is honestly strange. You don't need to be well versed in celebrity culture to know that this is indeed very "strange" behaviour.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
unless he wrote Thriller apparently

Didn't he not even write Thriller? Or at the very least had help with it?

I remember that being the case with a few of his songs.

Billie Jean came on my ipod yesterday and I skipped over it cuz he feels so tainted now. I felt embarrassed listening to him, especially now and when others can hear. Just feels like turning a blind eye to the shit that he did..
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Michael Jackson is not getting any of your money. he's dead and it's fine to listen to his music
 

Deleted member 9838

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,773
I'd like to hear other stories like people who worked on the ranch. It would really clear up the logistics of how he was a predator.
 

synapsidal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
102
Another thing that strikes me is that these were families who had the means to support their sons in creative endeavors from a young age, it doesn't make much sense that these were the kids he spent the most time with. Looking things up he only held about 10 known charity events for kids at Neverland over a 15 year period. Seems low for what appears to be the main usage case for the non-living quarters of the property.
 

Deleted member 9838

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,773
Also I hope the truth comes out regarding Jordan Chandler. He never really has had a clear voice in all of this and I think he is suffering greatly. He is in total hiding. Hope this documentary will empower him to speak out.
 

CDX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,476
I'd like to hear other stories like people who worked on the ranch. It would really clear up the logistics of how he was a predator.

60 Minutes Australia did an interview Micheal Jackson's maid. They put it on YouTube.

I haven't watched it yet, so I don't know if it will answer your questions, but I think she's the only Neverland employee or former employee that has given a recent interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yp91zKBGgY
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I'd like to hear other stories like people who worked on the ranch. It would really clear up the logistics of how he was a predator.

Not just the ranch but hotels, travel and such. MJ requests to keep parents further and further away is really suspicious and people were doing this for him. I think they probably knew.
 

Deleted member 18407

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,607
Agreed.

Also, I don't think it's okay to continue to listen to and enjoy his music any longer. It's yet another thing that normalizes his abhorrent behavior when he was alive.
This is where I'm at now too. I had to delete all of the albums I had of his off my computer. Even just thinking about listening to it makes me feel sick.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Agreed.

Also, I don't think it's okay to continue to listen to and enjoy his music any longer. It's yet another thing that normalizes his abhorrent behavior when he was alive.

It also keeps the Jackson estate going and all of his family who backed MJ all the way and still do just to earn money off the back of him.
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
Should I stop liking his music? I never cared for his personal life.
Seperate the artist from the art i would say like people do with the creator of lord of the rings and chutlu (lovecraft i think).

If you keep feelin bad tho if you keep listening to his music then i would suggest quiting yeah but otherwise. It's not wrong to still enjoy the music imo.

Personally i kinda grew up from music from that era thanks to my mom and dad so it still has that emotional weight to me and why i still listen to it.
 
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