When the truth is so ugly, so painful it starts to make you question yourself worth, to hate yourself even, you bury it. But similar to a plant, eventually it's going to come out - for these men when they had kids of their own.
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Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes
- Thread starter Brian McDoogle
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By the way the doc is up to a 97% on RT, it actually climbed.
This quote from one of the reviews stuck with me:
This quote from one of the reviews stuck with me:
Which is what the "where's the evidence/proof/widened scope" people in this thread are missing.
Another point everyone seems to be missing about this doc.
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I think part of why people should also watch the Oprah interview is because it also touches on how predators have an impact on the entire family via their manipulation, not just the children who they abuse.
Not to excuse what the parents did, as it was pretty clear that even in the doc they basically admitted to acting at least in large part out of self interest.
But they also had to deal with the confusion and pressure of being manipulated by a powerful abuser, who had convinced their sons to submit themselves to him.
Again, they fucked up big time but it's an important thing to recognize.
Not to excuse what the parents did, as it was pretty clear that even in the doc they basically admitted to acting at least in large part out of self interest.
But they also had to deal with the confusion and pressure of being manipulated by a powerful abuser, who had convinced their sons to submit themselves to him.
Again, they fucked up big time but it's an important thing to recognize.
Just finished part 2; this is not easy to digest all at once.
I worry for Jimmy Safechuck, he doesn't seem anywhere near as strong as Wade (who I also worry about, it could be a facade also.) Although I think due to the history I think Wade will recieve the brunt of the attacks, and he pretty much already has, he's been dealing with that for a few years and has a fairly thick skin about it. Jimmy on the other hand is just so deeply sad and fragile seeming.
WIll watch the Oprah thing tomorrow.
I worry for Jimmy Safechuck, he doesn't seem anywhere near as strong as Wade (who I also worry about, it could be a facade also.) Although I think due to the history I think Wade will recieve the brunt of the attacks, and he pretty much already has, he's been dealing with that for a few years and has a fairly thick skin about it. Jimmy on the other hand is just so deeply sad and fragile seeming.
WIll watch the Oprah thing tomorrow.
@ the bolded
Frankly, it really is just armchair psychology from idiots willing to excuse every red flag exhibited by MJ's behaviour because they can't get enough of his music, and never left the possibility that MJ is a human being, and human beings are known to do absolutely vile things to another human being.
Imagine this, supposed MJ was replaced with a random Joe Schmoe and everyone in his neighbourhood hears about how he allows random young children to bed with him because he justifies it by saying he was reclaiming his lost childhood by being around young children, and that his father had abused him for years and left him feeling lonely. Every single one of us would side-eye Joe Schmoe as a potential pedophile because of his flimsy justification. And yet, people suddenly think this makes any shred of sense for MJ to do. Like you said, loads of people have fucked up childhoods and yet they don't resort to pedophilia.
To make matters worse, and one of the biggest red flags for me, the man kept a so-called "artbook" of nude children. Here comes the "A BLU BLU BLU THOSE WERE LEGAL." Okay and? Am I just supposed to take that at face value, knowing full well that people can take legal stuff and be sexually aroused by something that wasn't supposed to be sexually arousing in the first place? Animated stuff is legal, but that doesn't mean that people can't find a way to twist animated stuff into something vile and get off of it (for instance the nonsense and meme that is 1000-year old lolis).
It's about time that people see Michael Jackson for what he really was: a liar, a manipulator, and a pedophile.
@ the bolded
Frankly, it really is just armchair psychology from idiots willing to excuse every red flag exhibited by MJ's behaviour because they can't get enough of his music, and never left the possibility that MJ is a human being, and human beings are known to do absolutely vile things to another human being.
Imagine this, supposed MJ was replaced with a random Joe Schmoe and everyone in his neighbourhood hears about how he allows random young children to bed with him because he justifies it by saying he was reclaiming his lost childhood by being around young children, and that his father had abused him for years and left him feeling lonely. Every single one of us would side-eye Joe Schmoe as a potential pedophile because of his flimsy justification. And yet, people suddenly think this makes any shred of sense for MJ to do. Like you said, loads of people have fucked up childhoods and yet they don't resort to pedophilia.
To make matters worse, and one of the biggest red flags for me, the man kept a so-called "artbook" of nude children. Here comes the "A BLU BLU BLU THOSE WERE LEGAL." Okay and? Am I just supposed to take that at face value, knowing full well that people can take legal stuff and be sexually aroused by something that wasn't supposed to be sexually arousing in the first place? Animated stuff is legal, but that doesn't mean that people can't find a way to twist animated stuff into something vile and get off of it (for instance the nonsense and meme that is 1000-year old lolis).
It's about time that people see Michael Jackson for what he really was: a liar, a manipulator, and a pedophile.
Not at all defending MJ but I don't think you can divorce his celebrity from who he was. And no I don't think this is analogous to something like R Kelly who largely ascended to fame in adulthood.
I'm just saying...I absolutely do believe there was some arrested development compounded by other worldly child stardom.
Yeah, I'm honestly surprised this thread is still going back-and-forth. Even if you took out the sexual abuse there's still more than enough to cancel him forever, it's frankly incredible that people are still trying to salvage any sort of dignity for him
I like this post, but it makes me ask the question. "What is the difference between Brett Kavanaugh and Michael Jackson?"
I think most people on this forum were saying he is a rapist without the "definitive proof," yet MJ is getting the benefit of the doubt despite admitting to sharing his bed with children etc. What is the difference here?
What about all the other child celebrities deprived of a normal childhood who grew up to be adult stars? Sure a lot of them ended up with issues of some sort, but nothing to the level of what Jackson did.
The "he was robbed of a normal childhood" horseshit just seems to be the easy cover that he relished in so he could get away with his shit.
It's their own dignity they're worried about. They've been up to bat for Jackson for most of their lives, it's attempting to save face by not having to admit that MJ hoodwinked them as much as he hoodwinked the kids and their families. It's hard to admit being duped.
I know it's probably been asked multiple times, but can anybody tell me where to watch the Oprah special or can we get a link in the OP?
Ringo Starr had one of the worst childhoods I've ever read about - there's too much to detail here but he was at death's door on a number of occasions and grew up during the bombings of the second world war - and he's one of the most harmless men in the world by all accounts. Lennon and McCartney's mums both died when they were young with John's Dad abandoning the family. John was a bit of a cunt sometimes, as I'm sure McCartney is in private on occasion, but neither of them as far as anyone knows did the sort of business Jackson was involved in.
Cuz people like MJ and/or his music.
The way I watched it was on HBO Now. You can sign up for a free week and catch all three parts (two part doc, interview).
Surprise surprise the replies to an h3h3 thread are garbage
He cultivated his shithead base and now he has to live with it
I don't know enough to really have an opinion here (haven't seen the documentary) but I'd guess the difference is MJ is not nominated for the supreme court. People weren't suggesting we lock Kavanaugh up as a rapist, only that a minimal effort was made in researching the accusations to limit the odds of a rapist ending up on the supreme court as much as possible.
I don't know. I'm not claiming to understand any of this and I'm disheartened. He's an enigma but honestly the whole family is. None of it ever seemed right. If I recall two of the brothers married and impregnated the same woman. Most of the family lightened their skin. Butchered their faces. Clearly something is fucked up.
I wonder where we draw the line with personal accountability and creating these type of sick individuals. You might argue this is all on MJ, and that's absolutely fair, but I can't help but feel like WE (society) played some role in it...we consumed him for his entire life. And I know, I know..."but he was rich!" I feel awful for his victims. I feel awful for him. I just feel fucking awful about this situation. Once again, not absolving him of anything alleged...just saying it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest he's just another weirdo like the pedophile down the street. Or maybe y'all don't see the value in making the distinction? Fair enough.
I haven't watched the documentary nor have much interest in something like it. But if what the victims stated about Jackson is true, didn't they commit perjury in a federal court?
Really? Sweeping generalization much? The majority of performers, actors and actresses had perfectly normal upbringings and home lives.
I'm so glad you're in here to ask these important questions. Horribly abusing children is nothing compared to lying in court.
If you haven't watched the documentary, why do you feel the need to comment?
It's on brand to hate republicans no matter what, but "nice" people who made things you like isn't.
No tea, no shade but...it's also why James Gunn's pedophile jokes were met with nonchalance. Yes, I'm aware he isn't an actual abuser (I think).
Don't comment on shit if you're going to refuse to watch the documentary explaining the victims situation and reasoning. You have no interest in listening but sure want to ask the important questions regarding two horribly abused children lying at the time for their abuser due to the extreme grooming and manipulation done to both.
Which they address in the doc because they both became fathers and had that realization, on top of everything else the doc covers.
User Banned (3 Days): Disingenuous commentary and concern trolling in a sensitive thread. Asking questions that are already covered in the source material
They weren't the only victims. Lying under oath discredited other children Jackson molested. And possibly could've created new victims. I'm not defending Jackson.
I have a pair of cousins, both women, on my mother's side of the family. They are separated in age by 2 years. When the oldest was 17 years old, she came out and said that her father had been molesting and raping her since she was 13. This began an extremely ugly trial that ripped the family apart. Her father's lawyers recruited the younger sister as their main witness, she was 15 at the time. The younger cousin testified in court for days that her father was a good man, that he had never molested her or her sister, that he loved them both with all his heart. She claimed the trial was the result of my aunt coaxing her sister into this, that my aunt wanted a divorce and also to retain the kids and "revenge" against her father, that my aunt had brainwashed her sister. She would even tell stories that would directly refute the experiences of her sister, i.e. "he couldn't have been raping her that day because he and I were out watching a movie together during this supposed event."
He was found not guilty. The older cousin went to live with her mom, who obviously got a divorce. The younger cousin said she disowned our family, and remained with her father. At 18, she moved away to college, and at 19, he committed suicide.
10 years later, at age 29, my cousin, the younger one, finally admitted that she too had been raped and molested, beginning at age 11. That, even after the trial, when she went to live with him, he'd continue to rape and molest her. She said she loved him with all her heart, it was her daddy, she felt like the trial was pitting her against her father. She claimed, at the time, she actually didn't mind the abuse to much because during the periods of non-abuse, he was loving and doting to her. She lied for him, made up stories on trial for him, because in her mind the alternative was sending her dad to his death in prison. She just wanted her life to be normal, for it not to fall apart due to allegations. It fucked her up in the head, she's still in therapy today. She's tried to commit suicide many times. Her sister has since forgiven her, recognizing that she was a victim too. Nobody wins, everybody hurts even to this day. There are still deep family scars, well after he killed himself.
Reading the replies in this thread are absolutely infuriating. None of you guys wondering about why someone would """"perjurer"""" themselves knows fucking shit. I truly hope none of you ever have to go through something that would help you gain perspective that, the way these guys acted, is completely fucking normal with abuse victims. Your ignorance is a badge that shows you haven't had to endure this shit. But you guys should really shut the fuck up.
He was found not guilty. The older cousin went to live with her mom, who obviously got a divorce. The younger cousin said she disowned our family, and remained with her father. At 18, she moved away to college, and at 19, he committed suicide.
10 years later, at age 29, my cousin, the younger one, finally admitted that she too had been raped and molested, beginning at age 11. That, even after the trial, when she went to live with him, he'd continue to rape and molest her. She said she loved him with all her heart, it was her daddy, she felt like the trial was pitting her against her father. She claimed, at the time, she actually didn't mind the abuse to much because during the periods of non-abuse, he was loving and doting to her. She lied for him, made up stories on trial for him, because in her mind the alternative was sending her dad to his death in prison. She just wanted her life to be normal, for it not to fall apart due to allegations. It fucked her up in the head, she's still in therapy today. She's tried to commit suicide many times. Her sister has since forgiven her, recognizing that she was a victim too. Nobody wins, everybody hurts even to this day. There are still deep family scars, well after he killed himself.
Reading the replies in this thread are absolutely infuriating. None of you guys wondering about why someone would """"perjurer"""" themselves knows fucking shit. I truly hope none of you ever have to go through something that would help you gain perspective that, the way these guys acted, is completely fucking normal with abuse victims. Your ignorance is a badge that shows you haven't had to endure this shit. But you guys should really shut the fuck up.
This is sexual abuse perpetuated by long-term grooming and emotional abuse.
Abuse victims often defend their abusers and it can take years and years of intensive therapy for them to even acknowledge themselves as victims.
Not to mention that they directly talk about this in the documentary. How Wade feels guilty and begs the other kids for forgiveness because he wasn't in a place yet mentally where he could admit what happened to him.
Like nearly every "gotcha" that defenders have posted ITT have been directly brought up in the documentary.
had a water cooler conversation about this at work. i didn't come away quite as enraged with them... 'slumber parties' with any grown man is inexcusable but i can see how they fell into that rabbit hole. like what if dwayne johnson invited little jimmy and his family over to his mansion for pizza and a movie, you'd think he was being good guy celebrity. then months later offers to take him to six flags and then another thing and another ... over course of time being in a starstruck bubble things just may not seem off though on paper what's going on is alarmingly suspicious
One of the families said they had known him for 4 hours before their kids were sleeping in his bed. 2 days later, they went half way around the country without their kid and left him with Jackson for 5 days alone.
There's no excuse for that.
Obviously you've said you aren't going to watch the documentary, but it answers your questions. They actually talk about how they felt certain Michael would be killed if he went to prison and that they would have been responsible if they sent him there. They both talk about not fully realizing how wrong what he did to them was until they had children of their own. They talk about the complicated love they still had for him for so much of their lives, how central he was to their development. They talk about what it's like for the first person you feel romantic love for to be your abuser and how that changes the way you view his actions. They talk about how Michael had convinced them that if the truth ever got out it would destroy his life, but their own too.
It seems obvious he moved so much faster with Wade than he did with Jimmy because of Wade's position as the more starstruck one was already in entertainment. It was probably obvious to Michael how his family viewed him as a means of making Wade famous. The grandma even said something about how during that five day trip she thought how lucky Wade was to be learning dance moves from one of the best entertainers in the world. They really seemed to view this as a kind of business venture... for a seven year old.
sure but i was talking about the two mothers in the doc, who'd seem to have quite a rapport with him well before the abuse started, unless i'm misconstruing the timeline
I'm talking about one of the mothers in the documentary. You have misconstrued the timeline.
Jesus watch the documentary and then youll realize how he psychologically brainwashed these kids into protecting him. Its the bare minimum we should expect from people in this thread who are just asking questions.
Even today, even in the documentary, when they talk about the actual abuse, you can see it still has a profound psychological effect on them. They admit in the oprah interview that often times the abuse "felt good" in the moment. This is something many abuse victims, especially male, struggle with for the rest of their lives. It's where the shame and confusion stems from. They describe their time with Jackson and sound like people reminiscing about their very first girlfriend. All that plays into the emotional abuse that came from being dumped and moved on from by Jackson. He fucking "married" one of them. One of them had mentally and physically replaced his father with Michael Jackson.
These are 7 year old kids. I remember being dumped by a girlfriend right before christmas dance in highschool, and it fucked my psyche straight up. "what did I do wrong?" And I was much closer to an adult, having already exited puberty at that point. I can't imagine trying to grapple with that shit as an 11 year old kid. And then, when Jackson comes back and asks for your help in a trial, and it sparks all these feelings in the kids that they can get back with jackson, that things will go back to what it was like.
These poor, poor guys.
I'm so glad you're thinking about the victims here. You're a great guy.
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