True , Sick shit.
Yes i can see that
... And Those mom's.... Come on man
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Leaving Neverland, HBO documentary on Michael Jackson's alleged child sexual assaults, review thread: Currently 94% on Rotten Tomatoes
- Thread starter Brian McDoogle
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True , Sick shit.
Yes i can see that
... And Those mom's.... Come on man
If someone like Culkin came forward, I believe that would change the discussion in an irreversible way.
You've repeatedly downplayed the abuse and predatory behavior of Michael. He's a gross, fucked up, evil guy. You call his actions "innapropriate". But it's way, way more than that and you keep ignoring that fact
Edit: and it appears you continue to do so...
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There are few true unforgivable acts in this world. But what those "mothers" did, is one of them.
If he came forward it would be in support of Wade & James, not his own experience. Mac didn't fit MJ's profile.
But idk, I guess 4 hours of illustrating his predatory grooming behavior which can be corroborated across multiple families and fits a psychologically proven pattern of abusers isn't enough.
Nah, he's completely right. There are two sides to this argument. One side that believes he isn't a pedophile, he just slept with little boys... I can't even get over saying that without laughing at how ridiculous the defense is. Try saying that aloud. He did not sexually molest these kids, just slept with them and not get side eye from everyone in your life.
I'm pretty happy about this thread though. I know a lot of people are down on it because of a few, but I see it as the reverse. A lot of posters here who've I've seen over the years aren't falling for the bullshit and letting it slide.
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O Winfrey putting this all in perspective for any doubters that want to put themselves in a position to see how and why it took them this long to say this
Saw it today and it was hard to listen to the accounts sometimes. Awful stuff. Also incredible to me MJ asked the one guy's mom to leave him with her for a year. Glad she shut that shit down immediately.
And yet, she still let him have contact with MJ after that.
If you also notice most of them were pushed by Michael away from there fathers maculy is no exception when he started to blame his father for his career
to be fair to Culkin, his siblings corroborated on how abusive their father was.
Now that I've seen it, I'm not surprised at the reception to it. I realize that a lot of people weren't going to believe the accusers no matter what, but I think the documentary was kind of...weak? I appreciate that they made the doc really focus on the victims and ramifications of their abuse, but they really should have had more...idk informative/explanatory/illuminating parts? Like maybe mentioning the child pornography-adjacent books he had, or that people have acknowledged the toddler voice he did was an act.
The focus should have been on giving insurmountable information that tipped the scale toward it being believable that Michael more than likely did what he was accused of (the R. Kelley doc did it really well) wth a mix of his victims' stories (since people are already pre-disposed to not believe anything they say).
That's just my two cents. It could've been made to be more effective for the average idiot imo.
The focus should have been on giving insurmountable information that tipped the scale toward it being believable that Michael more than likely did what he was accused of (the R. Kelley doc did it really well) wth a mix of his victims' stories (since people are already pre-disposed to not believe anything they say).
That's just my two cents. It could've been made to be more effective for the average idiot imo.
Watching the Oprah interviews... At times during the doc i had doubts wanting "proof" but.... unless you're a horrible judge of character you can see this is real to these men talking to her
Skimming the thread and it's wild how people defending Michael dont see this.
As far as I'm aware, this wasn't an investigatory operation. It was to let the boys/men say their experience. If you wanted it to be something it wasn't trying to be, that's on you.
Yes. Kathy Griffin and some other people I can't remember have stated he used a regular grown man's voice in private.
I feel like Culkin was too big a start and risk for Michael to do those things to. He likely didn't.
The decision making on display by these parents is just.......incredibly bad. But im sure the fame aspect had something to do with it, they must have felt that influence in some way which blinded them just enough.
He still was in bed with him though for days why is that hard to believe? And look where his career turned after.
That's where I was even before the documentary. This guy openly and happily admitted to sleeping with young boys. I guarantee if any man other than Michael Jackson admitted to that, almost everyone would be disgusted, and believe that he's a pedophile. And everyone would believe that he did more than just sleep with them. After this documentary, I'm finding it very hard to believe it wasn't more than just sleeping.
That there are still people defending his behaviour and downplaying him and his acts as merely "inappropriate" is gross.
"Inappropriate" is making dirty jokes at work.
Grooming and sleeping in the same bed as children is fucking abuse, so I'd really appreciate if people would stop calling it something less.
But anytime the subject is brought up, the defense force vanishes into the night.
Grooming and sleeping in the same bed as children is fucking abuse, so I'd really appreciate if people would stop calling it something less.
But anytime the subject is brought up, the defense force vanishes into the night.
I honestly believe Jackson's friendship with Macauley Culkin was intended to make him look normal as strange as it sounds. Jackson intentionally didn't abuse Culkin, and other child actors he had befriended so he could use them later on to testify as character witnesses that could help him in a court case. We'd see in part two of the documentary that Culkin would in fact be used by the defense in the second court case, testifying that Jackson had never sexually abused him.
The way this documentary was presented, focusing on both men, their grooming by Jackson, the gifts, threats, promises and the way their families back up the stories (and were also manipulated by Jackson), I believe both men are telling the truth. They have nothing to gain from telling their story and they have put a lot at stake with regards to their own safety and families.
If anyone wants a similar documentary to watch on pedophile behavior in Hollywood, just find "An Open Secret" on YouTube, there are so many similarities in the predatory behavior in both documentaries.
I truly feel sorry for both men and I hope that with time and therapy they can begin to lead normal lives. I also feel sorry for Jackson's three children, they must be going through a lot of mixed emotions about the father they thought they knew.
This whole thing is a study of how society worships individuals who put themselves up on pedestals, portray themselves as God-like or like royalty and can do no harm. Michael Jackson was truly the Pied Piper. All the good that Jackson did through his music and charitable donations is tarnished now. Jackson's wealth and image fooled a ton of people, and the Hollywood machine of music, movies and PepsiCo tolerated and defended his behavior because Jackson was a money-maker for so many people.
It's my hope that Neverland ranch, currently on sale for $30 million, will be bulldozed to the ground.
The way this documentary was presented, focusing on both men, their grooming by Jackson, the gifts, threats, promises and the way their families back up the stories (and were also manipulated by Jackson), I believe both men are telling the truth. They have nothing to gain from telling their story and they have put a lot at stake with regards to their own safety and families.
If anyone wants a similar documentary to watch on pedophile behavior in Hollywood, just find "An Open Secret" on YouTube, there are so many similarities in the predatory behavior in both documentaries.
I truly feel sorry for both men and I hope that with time and therapy they can begin to lead normal lives. I also feel sorry for Jackson's three children, they must be going through a lot of mixed emotions about the father they thought they knew.
This whole thing is a study of how society worships individuals who put themselves up on pedestals, portray themselves as God-like or like royalty and can do no harm. Michael Jackson was truly the Pied Piper. All the good that Jackson did through his music and charitable donations is tarnished now. Jackson's wealth and image fooled a ton of people, and the Hollywood machine of music, movies and PepsiCo tolerated and defended his behavior because Jackson was a money-maker for so many people.
It's my hope that Neverland ranch, currently on sale for $30 million, will be bulldozed to the ground.
I think the answer is simpler than that; MIcahel had a fixation on kids that wasn't just sexual. Keep in mind that in this documentary they discuss the sheer amount of time he spent hanging out with or talking on the phone with these boys. He got something out of all of it, and I doubt it was all 100% grooming them for something more nefarious. You don't need to spend that much time to accomplish that, the friendships he had were also important to him.
If he did molest some boys, he was also smart enough not to do that to the somewhat less vulnerable ones. And he could have gotten something sexual out of spending time with them, in bed with them, etc. without ever molesting them.
I doubt Micahel ever imagined he'd need to call them as character witnesses; he may have used them to some extent to normalize the idea of him having friendships with chilldren, but beyond that I doubt it was that far thought out.
Michael Jackson's song 2000 Watts has him singing in his real voice the entire time. Very deep.
It's so insane to see Jackson running around being chased by paparazzi all while surrounding himself with these boys.
Okay, he has a boy dancer for the tour, fine, but it's not like he was going to zoos with his bass player or something. And yeah, if I saw Usher going places and just *one* of his backup dancers was getting out of/into the car with him, we'd all be thinking "Usher is definitely fucking them."
It's so out in the open.
Okay, he has a boy dancer for the tour, fine, but it's not like he was going to zoos with his bass player or something. And yeah, if I saw Usher going places and just *one* of his backup dancers was getting out of/into the car with him, we'd all be thinking "Usher is definitely fucking them."
It's so out in the open.
Imagine this being your response to the documentary.
Imagine this being your response to the faxes while knowing the context of what was going on.
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Man, just finished watching both parts in one go. What a fucking brutal watch. As someone who's suffered from sexual assault, the testimonies of both Wade and James were very convincing. The feelings and thought processes they had were so familiar, the grooming, the way that it feels good at the time so you're confused about it being harmful. It's exactly what I felt when I went through my own experience and healing from it.
If they're lying for the money, they're unbelievably well researched and rehearsed. To the point I really just can't believe that anyone would do that. These men were suffering mental breakdowns, their families were crumbling, why would these two men add an element as stressful as trying to lie about something so monumental to their lives?
You can see that both of them are loving fathers to their children and it's the birth of their kids that drives them to the point of being brave enough to speak their stories, kids they did not have in 2004 or 1994. It's just so so relatable, every part of their story was exactly on point. Nothing felt fabricated or false about their emotions or how they rationalized their choices. Definitely had tears running down my cheeks for most of the second part. Gonna watch the Oprah segment when I can, but at this point, yeah, they're telling the truth. I got up and trashed my collection of Michael Jackson CDs as soon as it ended. Fuck him.
If they're lying for the money, they're unbelievably well researched and rehearsed. To the point I really just can't believe that anyone would do that. These men were suffering mental breakdowns, their families were crumbling, why would these two men add an element as stressful as trying to lie about something so monumental to their lives?
You can see that both of them are loving fathers to their children and it's the birth of their kids that drives them to the point of being brave enough to speak their stories, kids they did not have in 2004 or 1994. It's just so so relatable, every part of their story was exactly on point. Nothing felt fabricated or false about their emotions or how they rationalized their choices. Definitely had tears running down my cheeks for most of the second part. Gonna watch the Oprah segment when I can, but at this point, yeah, they're telling the truth. I got up and trashed my collection of Michael Jackson CDs as soon as it ended. Fuck him.
I understand there's some wrinkles in various details and motivations in their stories, but I watched it, and I entirely believe them. I thought it was a really hard to watch, and fascinating in how the birth of their respective children informed how they felt about it. How it 'broke the spell' of indoctrination or however you'd favour describing it. I watched an interview with one of Jackson's brothers on YT and it made me so angry. The idea that because they lied under oath we should take that version of events as true over this version, or that they can't be trusted because of it. I understand that it might be hard to stomach for his family, or his die hard fans, and I can't imagine the weight of having to go through all this over and over, but personally, I entirely believe the two victims in the film, and I wish I believed in a hell to hope Jackson currently resides in it.
The responsibility of parents is tough. I am not a parent, and it's all too easy for me to say who the fuck would allow their child to sleep with a grown man, and you can see that at least one of their mothers is hurt deeply by her actions or inactions, and I can understand the older brother's perspective on his mother fucking up, certainly, but I don't know how I feel about it. Certainly the safe thing is to presume everyone is a potential threat to your children, but I can somewhat understand the lapse in judgement in the context, as damaging as the repercussions were.
The responsibility of parents is tough. I am not a parent, and it's all too easy for me to say who the fuck would allow their child to sleep with a grown man, and you can see that at least one of their mothers is hurt deeply by her actions or inactions, and I can understand the older brother's perspective on his mother fucking up, certainly, but I don't know how I feel about it. Certainly the safe thing is to presume everyone is a potential threat to your children, but I can somewhat understand the lapse in judgement in the context, as damaging as the repercussions were.
I don't know how anyone can watch the documentary and walk away unconvinced. The part about the wedding rings especially captured the mixture of emotions involved. The dude's hands were shaking ffs. They sincerely loved MJ at one point in their lives.
Holy shit! That's creepy af. I don't know how anyone can continue to deny that he was a master manipulator. This is the same guy who said with a straight face that he never got plastic surgery or his skin bleached. It's a perfect example of people willing to believe what they want to believe.
Holy shit! That's creepy af. I don't know how anyone can continue to deny that he was a master manipulator. This is the same guy who said with a straight face that he never got plastic surgery or his skin bleached. It's a perfect example of people willing to believe what they want to believe.
NY times wrote about the fans of MJ on twitter etc. who insist he's innocent and run those weird MJ verdict blogs
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/arts/music/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-fans.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/arts/music/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-fans.html
I watched like 75% of the first episode last night with my wife and we were both devastated. We both don't want to believe it, just like many posters ITT. But the facts kinda speak for themselves.
We were both born in the mid 80s, so we experienced the height of MJ's power. During that time (late 80s to late 90s) he was as big as Spiderman and Justin Bieber combined. Not sure if any superstar will ever be as big as MJ was back then. OTH we were too young to understand the rumours about stuff with little boys. It was super hard to even think of MJ as an actual person.
But hey, he's a perv. fuck him.
Now the question is, how will the world handle MJ and his legacy going forward. Will there be a #muteMJ like #muteRKelly?
I kinda doubt it:
a) R Kelly only had one global hit "believe I can fly", MJ had like 20+ of those. For Spotify, labels etc. it's easy to move forward without R Kelly content & revenue. With MJ tho?
b) there's already enough doubt about these allegations out there. During MJ's lifetime the matter was never settled once and for all, so debates will linger on.
Thing is, I was listening to an "old people radio station" in the car this weekend and they were playing "I believe I can fly".
We were both born in the mid 80s, so we experienced the height of MJ's power. During that time (late 80s to late 90s) he was as big as Spiderman and Justin Bieber combined. Not sure if any superstar will ever be as big as MJ was back then. OTH we were too young to understand the rumours about stuff with little boys. It was super hard to even think of MJ as an actual person.
But hey, he's a perv. fuck him.
Now the question is, how will the world handle MJ and his legacy going forward. Will there be a #muteMJ like #muteRKelly?
I kinda doubt it:
a) R Kelly only had one global hit "believe I can fly", MJ had like 20+ of those. For Spotify, labels etc. it's easy to move forward without R Kelly content & revenue. With MJ tho?
b) there's already enough doubt about these allegations out there. During MJ's lifetime the matter was never settled once and for all, so debates will linger on.
Thing is, I was listening to an "old people radio station" in the car this weekend and they were playing "I believe I can fly".
People have trouble even condemning him for sleeping in the same bed as little boys, let alone everything else.
People in this very thread have excused an adult man calling a seven year old boy he's unrelated to every day for two years, calling said unrelated child 'little one' in abundant faxes sent daily, sleeping in bed with children and debating the meaning of "share" in the context of sharing a bed, having a security system installed so he knows who's coming to his bedroom despite using the bedroom to sleep in bed with young boys. Have victim-blamed with numerous "if it was that bad why did he do x". Have criticized child abuse victims for the length of time they took to come out and for not revealing they had been Michael Jackson's plaything when asked.
Each trying to say how meaningless one grain of sand is while standing on a beach.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong but I can't see there being any overarching rebuke of Michael Jackson and his work.
Yup. According to this (based on Forbes):
https://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/highest-earning-dead-celebrities
MJ generated 115 million $ in earnings just in 2015. That's a pretty big incentive to "fight for his legacy".
Yet to some here it's the victims of child abuse – who were sold the dream of fame, wealth and the lifestyle they were experiencing at the time before being dropped like a brick in favour of the company of younger boys – that are greedy.
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