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Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,878
Nearly every job I've applied for wants me to not only be an expert in my field - but to also have Project Management experience, be familiar with their acronyms etc. I'm wanting to start from the very bottom and learn everything. I see that there is PMP Certification - is there a recommended way to start from scratch?
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,588
Do you have an MBA?
Are you possibly applying for jobs you're not really qualified for? What is your education experience and field?
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
As far as i understand getting a PMP without experience is kind of pointless.

There's a good chance you may have already had some PM experience in your day to day job. I would think back to some projects or groups you lead and extrapolate there. You could also try and take lead on any new initiative or roll out
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,907
PMP is a racket, but it helps unfortunately. Some of the better PMs I've worked with didn't even have the cert and some of the worse did.

Project Management is very varied as well. Are you managing huge infrastructure projects over years? Or are they one month projects?

The best way to define PM is that you're responsible for who does what by when. You don't need fancy tools. Just need to know what to track.

It can get complex if you're working with budgets, which is common consulting.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,878
As far as i understand getting a PMP without experience is kind of pointless.

There's a good chance you may have already had some PM experience in your day to day job. I would think back to some projects or groups you lead and extrapolate there. You could also try and take lead on any new initiative or roll out
I have experience being part of the project experience - I'm a Salesforce Administrator. But the people that are hiring for Salesforce Administrators these days want them to not only have expert level Salesforce experience but also Project Manager experience.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I have experience being part of the project experience - I'm a Salesforce Administrator. But the people that are hiring for Salesforce Administrators these days want them to not only have expert level Salesforce experience but also Project Manager experience.

But as othes have said, PM can be a rather broad thing. If you lead teams or oversaw any kind of plan you technically are leading a project.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,907
I have experience being part of the project experience - I'm a Salesforce Administrator. But the people that are hiring for Salesforce Administrators these days want them to not only have expert level Salesforce experience but also Project Manager experience.
Have you led projects at all? That's PM experience. For example, have you implemented a new process that required more than one person to achieve? That's it.

If you're a Salesforce Admin, I'm 99.9 percent sure you have done this.

If you want to take a formal course, check out LinkedIn learning. Trust me, this stuff is basic.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,849
Don't start with a PMP, but it's a huge benefit if you want to crack the 6 figure PM jobs.

Honestly, I started just by searching and reading everything I could find about project management. Learn the basic phases of a project, understand what a charter is, project scope, etc... It's important to understand the vernacular of the profession. Most importantly, being a good PM is more about being a good leader than anything else. Communication, planning, organization, conflict resolution, etc... are all skills you'd need.

EDIT: I see that you do have some project experience. That's a huge leg up. I'd also take the time just to learn some of the common PM software (MS Project and Jira notably) because many jobs will ask for that experience / knowledge.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,878
Have you led projects at all? That's PM experience. For example, have you implemented a new process that required more than one person to achieve? That's it.
Yes - I've done these but I never learned the formal process. When I did the interviews they were asking me what certain acronyms meant and I had no idea because I've never formally learned Project Management.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,907
Yes - I've done these but I never learned the formal process. When I did the interviews they were asking me what certain acronyms meant and I had no idea because I've never formally learned Project Management.
Take a LinkedIn Learning course or buy some cheap Udemy classes. Actually start for free on YT, just search for them.

It's mega easy stuff. You just need to learn the lingo. Most white collar professionals beyond entry level have done project management. Developers do all the time for example. It's not some crazy thing.
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,724
The PMP is good for being a baseline for employers to look for on your resume. Problem is you need a bunch of experience in addition to passing the exam (like tracking hours that you performed doing projects), but you can get the CAPM certification that is basically just the exam while working on the PMP.

The PMBOK is the driest book I've ever read, but it's probably one of the better sources of material for the PMP. There are a bunch of study guides out there, but I was lucky enough for my employer to send me to a week-long bootcamp that helped get the information in my head.

But yeah, the thing with Project Management is that a lot of it is just formalized common sense. Staying organized and knowing how to keep things on track and forecast how things will go in the future.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,878
Take a LinkedIn Learning course or buy some cheap Udemy classes. Actually start for free on YT, just search for them.

It's mega easy stuff. You just need to learn the lingo. Most white collar professionals beyond entry level have done project management. Developers do all the time for example. It's not some crazy thing.
Thanks - this is good to know. I'll look at LinkedIn Learning now.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,907
This is also an idea. My mother offered to help me get started on my masters degree while I'm out of work. I could rope the project manager studies into that if possible.
You can also get experience working with non-profit orgs btw. I have a coworker that PMed his local library IT upgrade. This was a small neighborhood branch. They needed volunteers for this stuff. He was given a budget, worked with staff, put in orders, did the installations, etc. But he led the whole thing. Had a timeline, budget, and contractors he worked with.
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,519
Not sure about your field but every year I see more jobs that will accept a scrum master cert instead of the pmp. It's much faster to get a doesn't have the same hours requirements.
 
OP
OP
Dalek

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,878
You need to know how to be a PM but not to be a PM? That's kinda strange.
It's very common for some companies when it comes to hiring Salesforce Administrators. They can't just hire one person for one job. They want you to "wear many hats". They want to hire a Salesforce Administrator but also have them be a Salesforce Developer (Much more challenging and much more expensive) and also a Project Manager.

Essentially they want to pay one person to do three jobs:
Salesforce Admin
Salesforce Developer
Salesforce Manager

When I worked at a proper company with a proper setup we had all three positions filled by a separate person. But many smaller companies want one person to do all three.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
The knowledge from the PMP is useless. Its only value is in having it to look good.

I would suggest starting with lean or agile. The CSM should be easy to get, and the knowledge base from it is actually useful and applicable.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
Honestly? And I mean this in all sincerity, Project Management is basically herding cats.

As a PM you're responsible for:
1) Defining the product requirements, usually in a PRD (product requirements document).
2) Assigning work to engineers and UX folks (or working with those teams to get the work assigned).
3) Ensuring that work is properly scoped.
4) Ensuring that work is properly tracked. (Jira!)
5) Reporting metrics and updates. (Roadmaps!)
6) Setting goals at the start to define success. (OKRs!)
7) Verifying that everything works before launch. (You did schedule QA time in your project plan, right?)
8) Celebrating the work of the eng teams.
9) Doing it all over again.
 

rokkerkory

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
14,128
As a PM in my current role and experience in last 10+ years, PMP is pretty useless except for having it on your resume. The real skills to focus on are risk management, financial management, conflict resolution, stakeholder management and building relationships.

I would say learning to be a scrum master is more important these days than PM skills. PM skills tend to denote waterfall which barely any company uses anymore and if they do, I'd avoid that company like the plague.

I have been a scrum master in the past and now incorporate agile concepts and principles in my PM activities.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,849
The knowledge from the PMP is useless. Its only value is in having it to look good.

I would suggest starting with lean or agile. The CSM should be easy to get, and the knowledge base from it is actually useful and applicable.

I disagree that it's useless. A lot depends on what PM model your specific job requires. I've had government jobs that required full EV analysis, float calculations, etc.. that would have been a lot tougher without the PMP background. Beyond that, yeah, it's important mainly for the purposes of having it. But it has opened so many doors for me, career-wise, that I still recommend it despite the sheer work required to earn it.
 

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,519
It's very common for some companies when it comes to hiring Salesforce Administrators. They can't just hire one person for one job. They want you to "wear many hats". They want to hire a Salesforce Administrator but also have them be a Salesforce Developer (Much more challenging and much more expensive) and also a Project Manager.

Essentially they want to pay one person to do three jobs:
Salesforce Admin
Salesforce Developer
Salesforce Manager

When I worked at a proper company with a proper setup we had all three positions filled by a separate person. But many smaller companies want one person to do all three.

For SFDC development I'd definitely recommend getting the scrum master cert instead of a pmp. Unless you're looking for a specific job that still uses waterfall. I thought you might be in construction or something.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
I disagree that it's useless. A lot depends on what PM model your specific job requires. I've had government jobs that required full EV analysis, float calculations, etc.. that would have been a lot tougher without the PMP background. Beyond that, yeah, it's important mainly for the purposes of having it. But it has opened so many doors for me, career-wise, that I still recommend it despite the sheer work required to earn it.
Yeah, I suppose it varies. For me, the only things that actually touch it are just jargon. Oh, I need to do a root cause analysis? I can use an Ishikawa diagram! And that's about it.
 

TheRagnCajun

Member
Oct 29, 2017
590
Project management is a lot more about what kind of person you are and less about learning the tools/lingo. If you have strong leadership skills, who wants to decide what needs to be done rather than be told what to do, and you treat your project like your baby and take responsibility good or bad, then you are more than halfway there to becoming a project manager. You have to figure this stuff out in the job. No schooling is going to make you good at this from the start.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Honestly? And I mean this in all sincerity, Project Management is basically herding cats.

As a PM you're responsible for:
1) Defining the product requirements, usually in a PRD (product requirements document).
2) Assigning work to engineers and UX folks (or working with those teams to get the work assigned).
3) Ensuring that work is properly scoped.
4) Ensuring that work is properly tracked. (Jira!)
5) Reporting metrics and updates. (Roadmaps!)
6) Setting goals at the start to define success. (OKRs!)
7) Verifying that everything works before launch. (You did schedule QA time in your project plan, right?)
8) Celebrating the work of the eng teams.
9) Doing it all over again.

whats funny about this is in a lot of orgs they've swapped Project with Product, but expect the same thing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Just throw around the words "agile", "scrum", "jira" and you'll be like every other team I've worked on who claims to have their shit together.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,907
whats funny about this is in a lot of orgs they've swapped Project with Product, but expect the same thing.
Yeah, tech is a little different. Consulting has much more delineated roles I've noticed. Tech is a free for fall lol. I've in both consulting and tech (prefer tech by factors lol).
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
whats funny about this is in a lot of orgs they've swapped Project with Product, but expect the same thing.

Product is really supposed to handle step 1 in that list (and do all the heavy lifting for research, customer outreach, etc.), but I've seen it get rolled in one too many times.

As you note, Project and Product have become very blurred.
 
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Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Just throw around the words "agile", "scrum", "jira" and you'll be like every other team I've worked on who claims to have their shit together.
Yeah, that happens all the time. Here's the thing: Scrum is a type of agile framework, and Agile is just a concept, but the two get conflated, and then places don't want to invest the time to do it right or abandon the ways they're used to, so you end up with this hodgepodge mess that works because the team brute force their way through it.

That's where this situation comes from.
 

Porco Rosso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,205
Canada
Echoing PMP being useless. I did just fine in my last PM role without it, while the one employee who did have it really didn't make any use of it.

Unfortunately, for me anyway, it was just something I needed to develop on the job. I took some courses but they were useless
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Yeah, so on that note, don't bother with CAPM. It's basically a PMP (same material, even, but I heard the test is easier) without the prestige or permanence, as you have to retake the test every few years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Yeah, that happens all the time. Here's the thing: Scrum is a type of agile framework, and Agile is just a concept, but the two get conflated, and then places don't want to invest the time to do it right or abandon the ways they're used to, so you end up with this hodgepodge mess that works because the team brute force their way through it.

That's where this situation comes from.

My personal favorite is "we use jira because we're agile" and then I go into a project in Jira and it's 5 years old with 500+ backlog tickets. I'm not even a PM by any means I know using Jira tihs way is just wrong; i personally don't think it's a bug tracking system
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,724
Yeah, that happens all the time. Here's the thing: Scrum is a type of agile framework, and Agile is just a concept, but the two get conflated, and then places don't want to invest the time to do it right or abandon the ways they're used to, so you end up with this hodgepodge mess that works because the team brute force their way through it.

That's where this situation comes from.
This is literally how the government does project management, until they somehow twist Agile into just being Waterfall all over again.
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
Honestly? And I mean this in all sincerity, Project Management is basically herding cats.

As a PM you're responsible for:
1) Defining the product requirements, usually in a PRD (product requirements document).
2) Assigning work to engineers and UX folks (or working with those teams to get the work assigned).
3) Ensuring that work is properly scoped.
4) Ensuring that work is properly tracked. (Jira!)
5) Reporting metrics and updates. (Roadmaps!)
6) Setting goals at the start to define success. (OKRs!)
7) Verifying that everything works before launch. (You did schedule QA time in your project plan, right?)
8) Celebrating the work of the eng teams.
9) Doing it all over again.
Most of this is product management, which kind of incorporates project management as a requisite skill but is very different in scope and expectations. Project managers absolutely don't necessarily scope product work, make PRDs (PRODUCT requirements document), define product direction, etc.

All "project" management means is you help implement processes and ensure follow-through on goals and metrics for a particular project. It could be anything at a company, and not necessarily within the purview of product.

My first suggestion to anyone wanting to be a "PM" is first learn which one you're referring to.

A project manager helps define metrics and enable follow-through and completion on a project.

A product manager is responsible for the success and shaping of a product, including things like setting roadmaps, market research and knowledge, customer outreach, and product intuition (this typical being the most important skill). Product managers typically also project manage their product, in addition to all this.

Learning project management skills is very different from becoming a product manager, but would help.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
My personal favorite is "we use jira because we're agile" and then I go into a project in Jira and it's 5 years old with 500+ backlog tickets. I'm not even a PM by any means I know using Jira tihs way is just wrong; i personally don't think it's a bug tracking system
My personal theory on this is that Jira is the standard because it's cheap and flexible, but, man, I don't think I've met a single person who actually likes it.
 
Oct 30, 2017
943
if you want to start from the bottom, apply for Project Analyst positions. From there, you can hopefully shadow a PM, do all the bullshit work, and learn the ropes. I like to envision it as a squire/knight kind of relationship. Some Project Analysts are not quite like that, doing intake work or Project Admin kind of stuff, but it's a foot in the door
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
It's fine when configured properly for your team/workflow 🤷🏻‍♂️

It's more an issue of orgs using it as full blown bug trackers and it bogging down from hundreds and thousands of tickets. It's a lot like Sharepoint to me in the interface where it's such a mess to configure and move around that you almost need someone fully administer it and keep it in line.

Mostly my issue is Atlassian products feel like the literal definition of product creep
 

Swig

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,494
PMP is a racket, but it helps unfortunately. Some of the better PMs I've worked with didn't even have the cert and some of the worse did.

Project Management is very varied as well. Are you managing huge infrastructure projects over years? Or are they one month projects?

The best way to define PM is that you're responsible for who does what by when. You don't need fancy tools. Just need to know what to track.

It can get complex if you're working with budgets, which is common consulting.

I don't know how valuable the PMP actually is. I work with PMs all the time and they're most often clueless and terrible at their job. Sometimes I really wonder what they do with their time other than schedule and attend meetings. The few that aren't are probably decent because they're actually smart and diligent people. That said, the PMP is often a requirement for PM work.

I'd start by looking for PMP study materials. Depending on the job and if it's related to software, Scrum Master training might also be worthwhile, but that really depends on if you're working anywhere near software dev.
 

Swig

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,494
Honestly? And I mean this in all sincerity, Project Management is basically herding cats.

As a PM you're responsible for:
1) Defining the product requirements, usually in a PRD (product requirements document).
2) Assigning work to engineers and UX folks (or working with those teams to get the work assigned).
3) Ensuring that work is properly scoped.
4) Ensuring that work is properly tracked. (Jira!)
5) Reporting metrics and updates. (Roadmaps!)
6) Setting goals at the start to define success. (OKRs!)
7) Verifying that everything works before launch. (You did schedule QA time in your project plan, right?)
8) Celebrating the work of the eng teams.
9) Doing it all over again.

Yeah.. This is Product Manager work. There's a little overlap, but not much. A Scrum Master is closer to a software project manager than a Product Manager, typically. PMs more often deal with scheduling resources, setting up meetings and tracking project progress rather than the development lifecycle of software.
 

Swig

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,494
My personal favorite is "we use jira because we're agile" and then I go into a project in Jira and it's 5 years old with 500+ backlog tickets. I'm not even a PM by any means I know using Jira tihs way is just wrong; i personally don't think it's a bug tracking system

We used to use Jira. It can be used for bug tracking, but it depends on how it's set up. We had "projects" in Jira set up for each dev team. This is where a Product Manager would "build" their Epics/Stories to define a new product. But we also had a "bug" type in Jira to track bugs, even for released and legacy products. We used a different term for bugs that were found during the development process to differentiate new bugs that we had to fix immediately versus bugs that were reported from support/customers/other non-dev stakeholders. Each quarter would contain a "Maintenance" Epic that the bugs for released products would be put under. Jira worked really well for us. We switched to Azure DevOps, which I don't like as much for a variety of reasons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
We used to use Jira. It can be used for bug tracking, but it depends on how it's set up. We had "projects" in Jira set up for each dev team. This is where a Product Manager would "build" their Epics/Stories to define a new product. But we also had a "bug" type in Jira to track bugs, even for released and legacy products. We used a different term for bugs that were found during the development process to differentiate new bugs that we had to fix immediately versus bugs that were reported from support/customers/other non-dev stakeholders. Each quarter would contain a "Maintenance" Epic that the bugs for released products would be put under. Jira worked really well for us. We switched to Azure DevOps, which I don't like as much for a variety of reasons.

It can be a bug tracker for an indevelopment project, i think it falls apart when it turns into your defacto bug tracker for the entire product/company. It's not really well designed for that and when the backlog grows it really begins to drag down the performance of the entire instance, not just your own project.
 

Swig

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,494
It can be a bug tracker for an indevelopment project, i think it falls apart when it turns into your defacto bug tracker for the entire product/company. It's not really well designed for that and when the backlog grows it really begins to drag down the performance of the entire instance, not just your own project.

I don't know. I like it better than DevOps, that's for sure and it seemed to work fine for tracking bugs, even long term. It's so configurable that one company/teams Jira can look completely different than another. I really liked how we had it set up, but I saw another teams Jira and it was set up completely differently.

It also helps if you have dashboards and views set up. I had a Bug Tracker view that showed all of the bugs for my team, along with priority that I assigned and some other stats. I checked that several times per day in case any new bugs came in that I needed to triage.