for people who were wondering why certain trans posters didn't want to give Swery the benefit of the doubt in the last thread, this is why.
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Laura Kate Dale: "A trans woman discusses SWERY, representation and Deadly Premonition 2" (SPOILERS for DP 1/2, The Missing) [UP: SWERY responds]
- Thread starter MinusTydus
- Start date
Wow at the doubling down. People really need to learn that in these situations the very best thing they can do is just shut up and listen to what others are saying.
there's definitely a language barrier, but this is a really bad look, even with "propaganda" changed to "opinion"
cis people ITT please stop defending SWERY. you can't be blatantly transphobic, do the absolute bare minimum to change anything while whining about it the whole time, and expect people to still take you seriously as an ally.
cis people ITT please stop defending SWERY. you can't be blatantly transphobic, do the absolute bare minimum to change anything while whining about it the whole time, and expect people to still take you seriously as an ally.
To be fair, there's no indication that anyone said it was OK, only that "he did everything he can for Deadly Premonition 2".
As in, this is all he could have done without dedicating extra resources to even begin fixing this mess. He promised a fix not understanding the extent of the issue, thinking that he could alter some dialogue and call it a day as if there weren't issues with literally everything about that character.
It's a murderous sister fucker. Again.
Swery is clearly a big fan of a very specific harmful trope.
This isn't a great excuse given both his other major titles have dealt in transgender themes.
I sadly think he's being genuine here. But if he feels transgender needs 'explaining' by creating a clear gendered distinction between then and now that is factually incorrect and blatantly transphobic, maybe don't put trans people in your games.
it's difficult to trust what SWERY is saying at face value. Clearly, he understands the issue to a degree. He did, in fact, make a change to DP2 in response to LKD's video (edit: correction, the fix may have been in the works well before the video). But that just makes his refusal to do further changes so damning. He acknowledges the problem, doesn't even make a genuine effort to fully resolve it, and then washes his hands of it saying that his decision has been validated.
Further, SWERY isn't saying that the game is flawed and that there are examples of unintended transphobia in the game that should not be there. That it should be fixed but isn't going to be -- which could be understandable given limitations on money + time + etc. Rather, he's saying that this is the right choice for these characters now.
None of this follows to reason. He's gone back and forth regarding acknowledging what the actual problem is. And worse yet, in my opinion, has shown no genuine effort or intention to actually do better going forward.
That said, I hope he does continue a dialogue on the issue. I hope, even with all of his mistakes, he keeps trying to learn. Because the absolute worst thing he could do write now is shut down the trans community while it's very sincerely trying to help SWERY do better.
Further, SWERY isn't saying that the game is flawed and that there are examples of unintended transphobia in the game that should not be there. That it should be fixed but isn't going to be -- which could be understandable given limitations on money + time + etc. Rather, he's saying that this is the right choice for these characters now.
None of this follows to reason. He's gone back and forth regarding acknowledging what the actual problem is. And worse yet, in my opinion, has shown no genuine effort or intention to actually do better going forward.
That said, I hope he does continue a dialogue on the issue. I hope, even with all of his mistakes, he keeps trying to learn. Because the absolute worst thing he could do write now is shut down the trans community while it's very sincerely trying to help SWERY do better.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna pass on this. One of the YouTubers I watch is always talking about how the first deadly premonition was his favorite game ever and he's been super looking forward to this, making me want to play the first one but it sounds like I'm going to have to take a hard pass on this franchise.
Swerys comments keep making it worse and worse.
Swerys comments keep making it worse and worse.
I wish people would just fucking hire folks when they are trying to navigate spaces that arent clearly theirs, you don't fuck up, you make your work have more meaning and you put cash in the pockets of the underepresented. It's a triple win.
I wasnt gonna buy this janky ass game but this pretty much means i'm avoiding Sweary stuff.
I wasnt gonna buy this janky ass game but this pretty much means i'm avoiding Sweary stuff.
not that it matters but he acknowledged that specific issue before laura's video and the patch must have been in the works before that video as well. other people pointed out the issue with the dead naming in that scene pretty much the day the game launched. (edit: actually, before the game launched, in the reviews).
cheers, thanks. i added an edit. all the more frustrating considering how dismissive he's been of Laura.
this really fucking sucks and i can't believe it got worse as I actually believed the issue was going to be genuinely fixed.
I don't think anythings been confirmed yet, but the original pitch definitely had a gay character, so probably.
I don't think anythings been confirmed yet, but the original pitch definitely had a gay character, so probably.
I think in general much of Japanese society doesn't have the complete grasp on the sensitivity of social issues in the west.
The average Japanese person doesn't even think racism exists because they never encounter it in their daily life.
But still, there are no excuses for the trans representation issues in his games. He needs to reach out to trans voices if he wants to continue using trans characters -- I think he really doesn't understand the nuance necessary to portray theses things the correct way.
The average Japanese person doesn't even think racism exists because they never encounter it in their daily life.
But still, there are no excuses for the trans representation issues in his games. He needs to reach out to trans voices if he wants to continue using trans characters -- I think he really doesn't understand the nuance necessary to portray theses things the correct way.
this is were the publisher comes in. rising star, a western company, should feel responsible for the content they're publishing.
How many free passes can we keep giving him though? He seemed genuine when he admitted to have made mistakes, but then once it was pointed out to him that the fixes weren't enough, he just declared that he was done making changes and that the game is fine as it is.
I absolutely agree with you. There are cultural and language barriers here, and it is the localization/publishing companies responsibility to critique SWERY's writing in terms of proper representation.
True, his wording confused me a bit but what you are saying is more than likely the correct interpretation.
That's the thing though, he clearly felt compelled to properly represent a trans character in The Missing to the point that of reaching out to trans people to get their voices on the matter.
Why did he felt that not doing the same for a major trans character in his next game would be the correct way of handling things is what I find baffling, and the only explanation I can think of is that he honestly thought that he had a grasp into how a trans character should be written which is just all kinds of wrong.
I have never played the game, so is it about a man working through his ignorance and bigotry, or is the writing more reflecting of the dev himself?
As long as SWERY continues to engage in the dialogue, I'm hopeful for progress. His heart seems to be in the right place. His responses are kind of damning even if it's difficult to parse exactly what he's trying to say through the language barrier since he ostensibly uses "google-Sensei" to translate for him.
Not really no, the main character is an outspoken defender of trans rights who vocally admonishes the small town mentality and bigotry of the townsfolk, which is great.
But then the same character goes on to use the trans characters deadname and refers to their past gender which is at odds with the previous actions.
Its not really a massive part of the plot though the villains motivations are influenced by the bigotry of her family and the townsfolk
for all of his talk of a diverse group to help him fix things, he is sure ignoring the diverse group trying to tell him his job isn't done while he claps the dirt from his hands.
maybe he should spend less time drinKING and spend more time thinKING.
maybe he should spend less time drinKING and spend more time thinKING.
this. in swery's now-deleted tweets, he makes clear that he doesn't believe deadnaming is deadnaming. in other words, york isn't meant to be bigoted and only is so because swery doesn't believe what he's writing is hateful.
Well hope he grows from this, though it's too bad he's not being open minded with his response to criticism. I mean yeah, there are people like that in the real world, but usually in a game narrative you wanna be consistent with your message or at least aware of a character's own faultsthis. in swery's now-deleted tweets, he makes clear that he doesn't believe deadnaming is deadnaming. in other words, york isn't meant to be bigoted and only is so because swery doesn't believe what he's writing is hateful.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of everything going on but it seems that Swery is woefully uninformed on a lot of LGBTQ issues which is not really surprising given that he is Japanese where much of this is hush hush and still pretty new to lots of people as more awareness is being raised in Japan. I imagine he thought he was being an ally by trying to include LGBTQ characters in his games but ultimately fucking that up a lot of the time.
It's too bad he can't be more open to the criticism and concern if he really wants to do right. And I am not suggesting people go easy on him but at least understand the type of background he is coming from.
It's too bad he can't be more open to the criticism and concern if he really wants to do right. And I am not suggesting people go easy on him but at least understand the type of background he is coming from.
I don't know what I expected, or why I expected anything else...
I'm sick of this fucking shit, and then on Laura's tweet replies and there's a bunch of pieces of shit vermin harassing her and trans people...
Fuck, just fucking stop putting trans characters in your game if you're going to refuse to listen to trans people, we might genuinely be safer if you stopped doing that...
I'm sick of this fucking shit, and then on Laura's tweet replies and there's a bunch of pieces of shit vermin harassing her and trans people...
Fuck, just fucking stop putting trans characters in your game if you're going to refuse to listen to trans people, we might genuinely be safer if you stopped doing that...
"SWERY was uninformed"
LOL no he wasn't, he's had this in his games consistently. He's made one of the most critically praised games of all time. He's a sophisticated person. He can be held to account for his views. Your infantilizing of him is entirely divorced from reality.
Agreed on both points. It's really baffling, those two steps seem like the obvious things to do right now but he's just making it worse with his tweets.
Now that I can actually comment on this, all I can say is that I'm so, so disappointed. It's clear the Missing was a minor miracle due to the consultants and not Swery himself.
If he won't have consultants for any future projects, I'd rather not have any trans representation at all. No representation is better than bad representation. Sorry, I don't want representation to be a murderous sister fucker who gets deadnamed and misgendered.
If he won't have consultants for any future projects, I'd rather not have any trans representation at all. No representation is better than bad representation. Sorry, I don't want representation to be a murderous sister fucker who gets deadnamed and misgendered.
looks like he also deleted even more tweets, including the one where he said they did all they could, but he left the one up asking why he was still being attacked.
Why? I don't get it.
Especially as Swery has emphasized that he doesn't want people to dislike his characters.
Like, what the hell? Don't introduce this unlikable aspect to York then?
And I haven't played the game, but apparently it never frames the deadnaming as a bad thing. It's just presented as something that's normal and fine?
Oh, now things make more sense.this. in swery's now-deleted tweets, he makes clear that he doesn't believe deadnaming is deadnaming. in other words, york isn't meant to be bigoted and only is so because swery doesn't believe what he's writing is hateful.
There's still a chance he learns something from all this, but he should probably definitely hire consultants if he's going to handle this topic and characters again.
so what are the issues now? He corrected the pronouns but he still deadname the character when he talks about the past?
he still uses the same damaging stereotype against trans people for a second time (in his carrer) in the big spoiler of the game
Reading all about this, this sucks and it's a massive shame and disgusting how many people are going after Laura for this, like Twitter, why the f*** are your top results for Dale transphobic people making s*** up are trying to dig up dirt (or can't let go of the Persona 5 music mistake).
My disappointment with Twitter continuing to be a breeding ground and supporting transphobia aside, all of this has been depressing to read, wanted to play the original Deadly Premonitions but won't now. Hope the hate and abuse isn't affecting Laura.
My disappointment with Twitter continuing to be a breeding ground and supporting transphobia aside, all of this has been depressing to read, wanted to play the original Deadly Premonitions but won't now. Hope the hate and abuse isn't affecting Laura.
Finished this game today and wanted to chime in. The weirdness that exists in this game now -- and most certainly before the edits, a version I didn't see -- is kind of crazy. Like, this game is actually really bad on kind of all fronts, right? With the exception of York having a strongly positive attitude in one or two scenes, the game is *filled* with some vile, racist, transphobic, ableist stuff. Like in between York doing, what, "Voodoo voice", the constant stereotyping of black people, how the entire subplot of Lena is dealt with, and the final boss being every upsetting trope of mental sickness kind of wrapped up into one... it's just sort of nuts that this game exists in this form and that Swery thinks he's some kind of progressive icon. Getting back to Lena, though, the edit is a hatchet job. For one, there's still dead-naming, which I'm sure everyone here knows already, but the text is still actually in the game so you're just kind of reading everything that was removed (I think). It's a really lazy approach to fixing a serious problem, and unfortunately it rings true to the other issues prominent in the game that remain unfixed.
I've seen some takes that somehow what's on display here is somehow great. I realize it isn't my lane to say with any kind of certainty than the outcome here is nefarious, or whatever, but the tone and sense of the work that I was able to extract is kind of overwhelmingly negative. This game is so filled with questionable content, though, that I just don't see how it could be fixed even if there were 10 patches. Some of what's here seems rotten at its core.
I've seen some takes that somehow what's on display here is somehow great. I realize it isn't my lane to say with any kind of certainty than the outcome here is nefarious, or whatever, but the tone and sense of the work that I was able to extract is kind of overwhelmingly negative. This game is so filled with questionable content, though, that I just don't see how it could be fixed even if there were 10 patches. Some of what's here seems rotten at its core.