Great post, Pollen.Top to bottom garbage post, especially because she is coming off the heels off of an acclaimed album. I don't follow or try to seek out news about racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, etc. for the specific reason that I don't like being reminded that my identity as a biracial pan woman is the cause of ire for a lot of people; I like to believe in the best of people, and that they are capable of changing their minds because no one is borne unto this world with hating other people. But, let's put a pin on that, I'll address this later on why I'm so disappointed, especially now.
The Lana post and white people talking over the concerns of black women is the height of misogynoir. The entire first paragraph of her post invalidated everything she had to say regarding her art. The comparative suffering is unnecessary, and the framing of these, largely, women of color as jezebels that don't receive any slates from society is entirely, observably false. Every single woman, yes, even the white ones, but it's not about them, get pushback for trying to own to own their sexuality. But women of color are especially plagued with being treated as mere items in more recent history. Black women are jezebels, Asian women are submissive, Latina women are oversexualized, etc.
Now, going back to my extreme disappointment. Lana used to be one of my favorite artists. I loved the way her songwriting envisions the world that she's built and the exquisite melodies behind them. I've spent most of my adolescence using Lana's music as a backing track to unwind. Now, as someone that tries their very best to separate the art from the artist, I will now consistently be reminded of the trauma that she's subjected me to when I try to go back to works of art that I know the ins and outs of.
Couple this with the fact that so much of her core fanbase is so willing to tell us to "read the whole thing." I have, several times, just to make sure I was missing something, but the subtext in her message is clear. She frames herself as a "fragile" white women. One that is drowned out by "stronger women"—without a doubt referencing the women of color earlier in her post. This language is so triggering for me, and I'm sure many others.
Also, Lana, it is perfectly fine for you to glamorize abuse, the lolita kink, the whatever, but other women are allowed to call you out on it too. Your art is not immune from criticism, and while I enjoy your work, people are absolutely allowed to take what they're given and then criticize it. Ultraviolence is, by all intents and purposes, an album that glamorizes abuse.
That all said, I'm sorry. But I'm going to have to take a step back from her work. I'm disappointed.
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Lana Del Rey hits back at critics who say she "glamorizes abuse" by dismissing other artists, mostly WOC
- Thread starter krazen
- Start date
Yeah, especially when what she said is basically:
"[List of black artists] make [shitty music] and get nothing but praise, but I make [good music] and have to deal with unfair criticism."
User Banned (1 month): dismissing racism
This is so misleading. it does not add up when you read the title, and what she actually said.
I don't think she's attacking these women and their music in her post. She just mentioned the biggest women in music, and they happen to be mostly black.
I don't think she's attacking these women and their music in her post. She just mentioned the biggest women in music, and they happen to be mostly black.
White people stay getting the benefit of the doubt when it comes to racism.
Man, what must it be like to get the benefit of the doubt even when your words and actions betray that benefit.
I legit can't imagine.
There's a good amount of white women that are also currently really big that she didn't mention, like Billie Eilish.
I don't think it's anything about them "happening to be black" here.
Jesus christ, get over the title and read the content of her comment.
This is ridiculous, and you should be embarrassed. As if a post count has anything to do with the validity of anybody's statements. It also doesn't matter my race. If I am visibly black or not. I am mixed race and get confused for all kinds of things. In either case it does not matter because I experience otherness just the same. I'm not here to dick measure about post count and call my opinion superior to yours because I've got more or less. Get a hold of yourself. I can see you guys are very inflamed about what she said. I'm not excusing it either, I can see how it can be interpreted really badly. However, do I think that was her intention? I'm not sure i'd go that far without having a conversation or a discussion with her about it. But here you all go ready to ASSUME a hell of a lot. Just like you are ASSUMING a lot about me and where I come from. I'm either with you or I'm not, no grey area, no room for other experiences. Absolutely insane.
Oh yes, Kehlani, one of the biggest women in music, with her zero top 40 hits.
Everyone knows there's a shortage of huge white female popstars.
There is a lot to unpack here but I'll go with what was immediately evident when I first read your post: Lana is using black women as a weapon to validate her talking point. If she wanted to specifically talk about patriarchal white music media patronizing her art, then she should have named them rather than shamelessly single out some of the biggest black women in music to make her point. It was needless to name those women in her first paragraph.
Sure, she acknowledged that they're all successful, as you said, but the way she described their success and belittled their own art as songs about "fucking" and "cheating" is both bad framing and bad optics.
Now, I am not one to hold women accountable for what their partners have done, but Lana is also dating a white cop and has been making excuses for him. She has a history of using indigenous imagery in her videos (see: Ride), using chola images in her music (see: most of NFR and her career), using trap music (see: High By the Beach/Freak), and tangentially related, even she makes music about how her "pussy tastes like Pepsi Cola." The last bit is important because, in her post, she says she's just trying to be a "glamorous woman," she's more than just whatever those other black women are writing about when they sing about fucking per her own words.
Take these things and combine them into a whole and it paints a very unflattering image of her. I say this as a former fan. I am willing to forgive her if she backpedals on what she's said and shows a concentrated effort to change, but you need to also understand that there is justifiable anger and hurt coming from women of color here.
When you go into a thread and say people are looking to bring race into a discussion just for the kick of it you can't really get defensive when people look at you suspect or call you out.
It was you who soured the discussion when you basically said people are playing the race card.
Just so we are totally clear on why you're getting a hard time from people.
Right. That part I can see. The invalidating is different though. Look, I wasn't trying to come in here and get a rise out of people or make people upset. All I was trying to do was raise the point that we don't really know what she was thinking until we get a follow up. I can see how it could be interpreted a couple of ways. However, I can see that this is a sensitive topic and I don't want to inflame people further. It was my mistake to suggest that people were bringing race into the discussion and I apologize for that.
You came into this post completely dismissive of the topic, claiming it was looking for a reason to be offended and later tried to use "being a poc" to excuse it
while conspicuously ignoring all of the well stated posts that break down the multiple ways her statement doesn't even make sense and is obviously racially coded
Since it clearly needs to be explained to you: just because you are a person of color does not mean you can't be racist against black people.
You are the one who brought up your color as if it made your dismissive and ignorant opinion any better
You're absolutely right, and I believe I spoke ill and I can see how my initial post can be construed as being in bad faith. That is absolutely my bad.
Well, I wasn't expect you to apologize so I'll take it. lol Thanks
FYI: The only reason I brought up your post count is because posters who say things like "your looking for a reason to be offended" in a post about racism and have weirdly low ass post counts are usually sleeper trolls so lol
I gotta be honest as someone who has only the most casual of interest in her work, learning that she wrote a song romanticizing Harvey Weinstein is going to sit with me a long time.
"I don't think she was comparing herself to the artists she mentioned"
Artists she mentioned
She mentioned
It's her fault. She mentioned the artists. She and her fans don't get to turn around and say it's not about the artists she mentioned.
Without the mentions, this would've been, at worst, laughed off as a needless display of self-victimization. She went ahead and decided to dump kerosene on it with the "shout-outs". Jfc Lana
Artists she mentioned
She mentioned
It's her fault. She mentioned the artists. She and her fans don't get to turn around and say it's not about the artists she mentioned.
Without the mentions, this would've been, at worst, laughed off as a needless display of self-victimization. She went ahead and decided to dump kerosene on it with the "shout-outs". Jfc Lana
Michael Jordan used to fabricate critics to motivate himself. Lana gunning for GOAT.
I mean, I don't have any hard feelings, it's cool. I just wanted to highlight why people were getting upset. The fact you're just straight up apologizing is legit my guy :)
That's alright, I get it. It's a very sensitive and complex topic, there is no easy answer. And times are rough right now, so it was shitty of me to try to downplay that aspect off the bat.
I've got no problem admitting when I'm wrong, because I'm often wrong lol
I actually don't think it's that complex a topic: this white girl didn't need to throw a group of black women(and Ariana blackfish) under the bus to act like a victim.
that's white feminism 101
It's actually a very easy answer lol
I don't understand why she is framing this as twisting her words or being attacked. She posted a pre typed message to instagram. She had all the time in the world to bake in whatever context she wanted or refine her point. If people are misinterpreting it it isn't because they are out to get her, it's because she did a poor job expressing her points.
And I mean, the more she types the more it feels like she just wants all the fame admiration and respect but any criticism is invalid and mean spirited. Like people are free to make good natured criticism of you or your work. You aren't God.
There is no excuse. A letter is an opportunity to make sure shit doesn't get twisted. That's your choice to be as clear and concise as possible.
You curate every single one of your words and sentences to get a message across. You can't get mad at people for calling you out on that message. You still did what you did. Be annoyed with your critics but when you start with "question for the culture" and name drop a bunch of WOC who apparently-- according to you, freely express themselves with no backlash (10000000% untrue btw) you cannot expect anyone to take you seriously the way you're flipping your shit...
That's the problem with society-- white people have to be held accountable for saying dumb shit now! Boohoo.
You curate every single one of your words and sentences to get a message across. You can't get mad at people for calling you out on that message. You still did what you did. Be annoyed with your critics but when you start with "question for the culture" and name drop a bunch of WOC who apparently-- according to you, freely express themselves with no backlash (10000000% untrue btw) you cannot expect anyone to take you seriously the way you're flipping your shit...
That's the problem with society-- white people have to be held accountable for saying dumb shit now! Boohoo.
Lana just stop while you are slightly less behind....
OP
OP
Man. MAN. MAN
R&B Singer Kehlani Attempts Suicide After Instagram Harassment
Speculation about the singer's relationship with NBA star Kyrie Irving made her the focus of internet trolls
BUT LANA IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE "CULTURE" GETTING CALLED OUT.
Like how far up your ass do you have to be to miss all the shots Beyonce, Minaj, etc get. Can you even breathe in there?
Lmao, I was waiting for you to post it because I couldn't find it myself.
LOL at all of those people who jumped to her defense.
It happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. Young and Beautiful did not deserve to go in the trash bin for me, but that's where it's going now.
"There are certain women that culture doesn't want to have a voice".
She's riding that freedom of speech white oppression train.
Page 1 keeps looking worse by the minute.
She's riding that freedom of speech white oppression train.
Page 1 keeps looking worse by the minute.
oh I only just now put together that the weinstein song is the cola one, the ones people are posting as "really this is the art that's supposed to be better than what women are doing in hip hop right now?"
i need to lie down
i need to lie down
In her instagram story she said that she hates that people make issues about race when there isn't
She was like don't call me racist
She was born rich and everybody giving her what she wants
I would like to apologize to everyone I was talking to in this thread
while my main point of contention was that she wasn't throwing shade on the artists she name dropped (which given the scope of the thread is a pretty minuscule thing to focus on, I admit) I was also taking it as a given that she had, fuck man I don't know, a little bit of common sense or something. I figured that someone who has gotten as far in the music industry as her would just know better and I felt pretty comfortable in making that assumption. clearly I was wrong. holy shit how wrong I was. god damn. "I would also like to have some of the same freedom of expression without judgement" is making my head hurt.
sorry yall
while my main point of contention was that she wasn't throwing shade on the artists she name dropped (which given the scope of the thread is a pretty minuscule thing to focus on, I admit) I was also taking it as a given that she had, fuck man I don't know, a little bit of common sense or something. I figured that someone who has gotten as far in the music industry as her would just know better and I felt pretty comfortable in making that assumption. clearly I was wrong. holy shit how wrong I was. god damn. "I would also like to have some of the same freedom of expression without judgement" is making my head hurt.
sorry yall
lolol
White people always be like, "It's not about race."
PoCs be like, "Literally every aspect of my life is about race."
Maybe she should think about how privileged she is to be able to utter that sentence.
well going by Lana's response, fuck her lol. feel bad even trying to make sense of her mess. she dug herself a hole that will be very hard to get out of now.
In her comments it's a bunch of rich women defending her and believe it or not one of them said that nobody understands the hardships that Lana had to go through, she mentioned her having to go to boarding school.
yup I was like I'm done with that, no time for that
