Don't even bother anymore, it's very clear people are purposefully moving the goal posts.
It's not rocket science to see what's wrong with what she said.
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Lana Del Rey hits back at critics who say she "glamorizes abuse" by dismissing other artists, mostly WOC
- Thread starter krazen
- Start date
It's not rocket science to see what's wrong with what she said.
But that's her point. She's making the same kind of music.
She's not saying her music is "better" or "different" at all.
Ariana being the only white woman in the list -> Era going "gotcha, OP, those aren't WoC!". Come on.
I also struggle to see how she's not taking a swing at those other artists. The interpretation of her words as comparing herself positively to them feels almost dishonest to me. She's clearly being at least a bit pretentious, no?
I also struggle to see how she's not taking a swing at those other artists. The interpretation of her words as comparing herself positively to them feels almost dishonest to me. She's clearly being at least a bit pretentious, no?
I don't think goal-posts are moving. OP made a claim in their original title that was a reach, and people called them out. Now, if anything, the detractors are moving goal-posts that Lana Del Rey's comments were at least problematic and hypocritical in general, which wasn't the original topic.
context is important.
She's talking about hits, not entire catalogues. Hits = socially acceptable songs, which therefore gives validation to similar subject matter, such as her own music. Aka what her rant is about.
If the post was framed more this way I would agree on it being reductive:
"Now that Doja Cat, Ariana, Camila, Cardi B, Kehlani and Nicki Minaj and Beyoncé make songs about being sexy, wearing no clothes, fucking, cheating etc –"
I don't think it is tbh.
What I understand from this quote is that "now that singers with more vapid subject matter are celebrated, can I go back to making music about actual relevant/deep/empowering subject matters".
Her point is invalid when those very same artists get the same exact scrutiny, if not arguably worse.
LANA DEL REY is a critically acclaimed artist. She may very well get shat on, but so do those other artists, soo.... what point is she making? She's saying that because they're being 'praised' for it now, she should too, because according to her, she was ahead of her time with that and paved the way.
Beyoncé and Nicki Minaj have been subject to HARSH critical scrutiny since the beginnings of their career, and still are!
you're forcing that reduction tho, she just said they have songs about not that they only have songs about or that having songs about is a bad thing
her issue is not with the other artists that she name dropped. I think that's the main source of confusion here.
Eh, I kind of interpret "can I go back to making songs about being embodied, beautiful and in love" as looking down on them.
You're still wrong.
All of those topics have been 'socially' acceptable for the past few decades, come on now. Her issue is with critics, and she's taking it out on other artists as if she's unfairly persecuted and they're not.
That's how I read it too. I'm honestly surprised some people don't see it. It's pretentious or condescending at the very least.
That she also has crass songs about sex (...which was about Weinstein?? WTF?!) makes her a hypocrite in addition to all of the above.
The things most confusing to me are: why she included Kehlani, who I'm pretty sure doesn't even have a single top 40 hit. That doesn't really help me believe she's not specifically (even if unintentionally) targeting WoC.
Plus, the things she's crying about being criticized for - literally every successful female popstar in history has gotten criticized for, going back decades. Songs that she's describing have been topping the charts forever. This statement is clearly a reaction to the last few weeks, when the remixes of Say So and Savage were fighting for #1, and it's suspect that Lana chose this moment, when two pairs of black women with songs in which they all rap are dominating the charts, to make this sort of statement.
Plus, the things she's crying about being criticized for - literally every successful female popstar in history has gotten criticized for, going back decades. Songs that she's describing have been topping the charts forever. This statement is clearly a reaction to the last few weeks, when the remixes of Say So and Savage were fighting for #1, and it's suspect that Lana chose this moment, when two pairs of black women with songs in which they all rap are dominating the charts, to make this sort of statement.
Ok so let's say your assessment of her statement is correct, what does that add to her point?
Why is she acting as if white women alone before her haven't talked about every single topic in the book she has already spoken about, JANIS JOPLIN anyone?!
That's her problem. She thinks what she's doing is new, and it's not. Nothing about it is.
That's her problem. She thinks what she's doing is new, and it's not. Nothing about it is.
No, if anything she's implying they had it different in the past with using "Now that". You can read any review of her first album to find criticism regarding the subject matter.
And your own point doesn't make sense. Yes, her issue is with critics, so how is she "taking it out on artists"? There is no negativity towards those artists listed, no shade, if anything it's a celebration of what they are doing and how they are making the music they want to make and have it be successful. She's using their success to validate herself, not really the other way around.
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Yeah..... no. Just no. That's not what it is at all.
Those artists still get ravaged by people today. It's not new or just now becoming socially acceptable for artists to talk about the stuff she has, they've done that for quite a while now.
Reading her Instagram post she comes across more like she thinks she's a victim of unfair judgememt. It sort of spins both ways when I read it because when she brings those artists up it half sounds like she is saying now that they've made it acceptable through popularity will yall get off my back and half, they dont get criticised the way I do. And the thing is like, who is really in good faith arguing Nikki Minaj was not criticised for the type of music she was making or promoting for example? There has always been a bias in music against women talking about sex or revealing their bodies or the types of relationships they have.
Lana isn't new in this regard. So I'm of 2 minds about this. She doesn't need to name drop to make her point. And her point is not wrong when it comes to criticism of her music as an individual. But all the women she name dropped specifically the black ones get criticized all the time for the topics they sing about. I dunno. The tone of the post rubs me the wrong.
Lana isn't new in this regard. So I'm of 2 minds about this. She doesn't need to name drop to make her point. And her point is not wrong when it comes to criticism of her music as an individual. But all the women she name dropped specifically the black ones get criticized all the time for the topics they sing about. I dunno. The tone of the post rubs me the wrong.
Lana Del Rey name-dropping the names of 6 WoC and of 1 white woman doing her very best to not look white for years now (to the point people are shocked when they see pictures of her from 10 years ago), has got to be the most eyebrow-raising thing ever in this story. She already looked pretty damn dubious to me for some time now, but damn she's really digging her own hole with that one.
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I agree the tone is bad and she certainly could have worded the entire thing better, but I don't find it nearly as problematic as the Alison Roman debacle, for one, or like the way the OP was originally framed. She's implying that everyone reading this is familiar with her career intricacies, so that's making it harder for her to get a point across.
OP
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I said she inadvertently threw female POC's under the bus similar to Chef Roman in my OT and I 100% stand by it (I think I even said inadvertently for Lana giving her even more benefit of the doubt). And I have subsequently provided receipts. In both their cases the basic points (anti-commercialism in Roman, misogyny in Del Rey) are solid, but their examples are very telling and hop, skip and jump into short sighted privileged at best.
We can debate it, of course, but I do feel insulted when people are like 'CLICKBAIT' when I have posted up outside opinion pieces explaining the perspective and all I get is 'feels' in response with someone trying to derail the thread with 'but Ariana!'.
I think her IG post is much more clear about what she wants to say and the Lana Del Rey music from 10 years ago was definitely a lot of about sex, cheating, abusive relationship etc.
She didn't need to name drop these female artists, but on the other hand if Miley Cyrus and Iggy Azelea were still relevant in 2020 they would have probably made that list too.
I think there is a good discussion to have about how Lana Del Rey music was treated back in the day, maybe it wasn't the right way to talk about it though.
You seriously can't be this naive.
This place still has a long way to go when it comes to discussing microagressions.
I'm not familiar with the Alison Roman debacle. I was just commenting based off reading the entire article and then he full instagram post. Lana isn't an artist I am particularly familiar with, heard a song here and there. But yeah, it reads half way between the perspectives I am reading in this thread for me. People saying her music was toxic or glorifying abuse or whatever, I dunno, never really got that from my brief listening. Felt more like a Danny Brown type thing where it acknowledges shit is fucked but it is what it is, there are things about this that are inherently me.
But calling her contemporaries into question just hurts this because it's not like people dont criticize Beyonce or Minaj or Cardi all the fucking time. Just let Lana make whatever the fuck she wants to make without trying to invoke this poisonous bullshit.
you realize she's using them as an example because... she's been writing music of the same subject matter her entire career. If there is a micro aggression here, then it would also be aimed at herself. There is no negativity implied towards what those girls are doing, the opposite actually. This is why context is important and why Lana's argument is challenging to get across since people reading it don't really know enough about her.
This 1000%. I have 0 desire to ever listen to her music again.
User Banned (1 Month): Accusations of virtue signaling and dismissive rhetoric over a series of posts. Previously banned for similar behaviour.
Dumb arguments like those in the OP trivialize real problems. Virtue signaling in bad faith only hurts the liberal cause.
She name dropped famous female artists. They happen to be POC. OK. Maybe if more white women were topping the charts she would be naming them.
She name dropped famous female artists. They happen to be POC. OK. Maybe if more white women were topping the charts she would be naming them.
LDR is a fantastic artist who has been needlessly shit on because of misogyny and gatekeeping about who gets to make art.
I also don't see anything really wrong with the quote and don't think she was swiping at those artists.
I took it as more or a 'ok, there are plenty of artists making lots of music, can I just make my depressing shit in peace'
I also don't see anything really wrong with the quote and don't think she was swiping at those artists.
I took it as more or a 'ok, there are plenty of artists making lots of music, can I just make my depressing shit in peace'
Say what you will about the stuffy prog rockers that LDR is cribbing her musical tone from at the moment, most of them knew that they were on commercially shaky ground and to my knowledge I don't think any of them did shit like, I dunno, cheer on the disco demolition night. She's either being massively, aggressively ignorant or willfully obtuse here. This is always how the industry has been! Most popular music is simple and straightforward with relatable lyrics, usually about romance.
Lmao right, white women are rarely ever at the top of the charts. I can see how it would be hard for Lana to think of any.
this is why I'm confused. why would lana shit on something she does all the time? some of her lyrics have been posted in this thread, clearly she has no issue with songs about being sexy, naked, or fucking but so many people keep trying to force it
Imagine if LDR and Billie Eilish teamed up to make a record. Maybe they could call it something like "Music to seduce your BFF's dad by"
It's not the subject matter, it's the fact that her argument basically boils down to "how come they get to do it with no backlash and not me?" Which is simply not true.
OP
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Yup.
Imho when she was coming up the critics/music journalists were mainly white males of privilege (and still are) who didn't have the cultural understanding for what she was doing on top of their usual misogyny. Now there's been a critical re-alignment where pop music, hip-hop, and R&B are a bit more fairly reviewed...or at least considered in the broader musical landscape so I hope they wouldn't make the same mistake (misogyny is a bitch tho).
Bu ten years ago Rihanna was seen as silly disposable pop music but Bon Iver? Genius!
Lana being the scorned women, talking about toxic men and still loving the toxicity is something of Black R&B singers (who they ignored because of it's closeness to pop in the 21st century) and of white female country singers (who they had no cultural connection due to them being so far down the socioeconomic line).
It was weird to see them praise Weeknd's fuckboy-isms (which I guess they understood because it was just misogyny remixed as cool, and I say this as a fan), but get confused at Lana's same exact take, lol.
She name-dropped specifically "urban"/R&B artists, and claimed that since they've had their time in the limelight, she's entitled to the same attention. Why?
She's acting as if the artists she named never faced any criticism of their own, when in reality, they faced more.
User Banned (Permanent): Threadwhining, backseat modding, long history of related and serious infractions related to racism and sexism
Normally I'd just say to report click-bait thread titles,but it doesn't look like that'll be a viable option in this case.
what she said only works under the pretext that none of those artists got rap for the songs they put out, hits or otherwise.
all those sisters pushed through and got hits in spite of the shit
is that what her argument is? I took it more as "hey since this stuff is clearly commercially viable can I just make my music without all the bullshit?"
at least we can move beyond the notion that she thinks those subjects are inherently negative or that she's shitting on the other artists
Don't you dare disrespect my mother.
I don't see the issue. Stan Twitter is blowing it out of proportion. She definitely could've made her point without name dropping other artists though.
I don't see the issue. Stan Twitter is blowing it out of proportion. She definitely could've made her point without name dropping other artists though.
Like I said, this place has a long way to go when it comes to discussing microaggressions.
Why do you put words in her mouth? She's literally asking for people to stop criticizing the sexual themes in her songs now that mainstream female artists are openly embracing her sexual freedom. That's, literally, what she's saying. Everything else is conjecture in the best of cases.