Labyrinth of Galleria is one of 2020's best games, but you probably won't be playing it until 2022

[Jebusman]

Is it NIS's fate to just release games that never sell?

Admittedly I'm part of the problem. I think the last game I played of theirs was ZHP (which I adored).

 

[Theswweet]

it was under 3k on vita because tracking ended at 2,900 and the game didn't chart. it could have done anywhere between 0 an 2,900. on ps4, it sold 8,700.

the way japan retail works is that they'll buy stock and that'll be that. there's no such thing as a publisher-covered markdown like there is in the us or europe, so 8,700 on ps4 is probably more realistically like 12,000-14,000 overall, eventually. and ps vita would be around 3,000-5,000. add in 10% for digital sales (another 1,000 units) and this game will probably do around 15,000-20,000 overall. it's a massive bomb, a failure of leadership, and probably the end to this franchise, but considering it can still come to ps5 and switch in japan, where it could get another 10k in sales there means that a western version based off those platform releases would be pretty likely.

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Just curious - is there any particular reason you think a PS5 release would be necessary? PS4 games can play on PS5, and it's not like there'll inherently be any benefit from the system's extra power. Would It just be for visibility in storefronts?

 

[Ra]

Is it NIS's fate to just release games that never sell?

Admittedly I'm part of the problem. I think the last game I played of theirs was ZHP (which I adored).

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Someday NIS will realize that Switch and PC should be their prioritized target markets. At least I hope so for their own sake.

 

[Strings]

Someday NIS will realize that Switch and PC should be their prioritized target markets. At least I hope so for their own sake.

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They're doing simultaneous Switch releases for almost everything and it's not really helping. Mad Rat Dead didn't chart on either system and Void Terrarium did ~4k on both. Poison Control (Shoujo Jigoku no Doku Musume) did 1928 fw on Switch and didn't chart on PS4.

 

[MrWindUpBird]

it was under 3k on vita because tracking ended at 2,900 and the game didn't chart. it could have done anywhere between 0 an 2,900. on ps4, it sold 8,700.

the way japan retail works is that they'll buy stock and that'll be that. there's no such thing as a publisher-covered markdown like there is in the us or europe, so 8,700 on ps4 is probably more realistically like 12,000-14,000 overall, eventually. and ps vita would be around 3,000-5,000. add in 10% for digital sales (another 1,000 units) and this game will probably do around 15,000-20,000 overall. it's a massive bomb, a failure of leadership, and probably the end to this franchise, but considering it can still come to ps5 and switch in japan, where it could get another 10k in sales there means that a western version based off those platform releases would be pretty likely.

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I see. Well thanks for the breakdown on how that all works. I never got around to playing the first game but it definitely was on my radar, just haven't found the time to actually grab it. It's a shame that that will be the end for the series unless a port to Switch or PS5 does massively well I'm assuming?

 

[Theswweet]

They're doing simultaneous Switch releases for almost everything and it's not really helping. Mad Rat Dead didn't chart on either system and Void Terrarium did ~4k on both. Poison Control (Shoujo Jigoku no Doku Musume) did 1928 fw on Switch and didn't chart on PS4.

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I guess I'm not really surprised, but Mad Rat Dead was also a really charming game. Honestly? NIS does a lot of really cool smaller projects that I'd argue really deserve to sell a lot better than they end up with. It's a damn shame.

 

[AniHawk]

Just curious - is there any particular reason you think a PS5 release would be necessary? PS4 games can play on PS5, and it's not like there'll inherently be any benefit from the system's extra power. Would It just be for visibility in storefronts?

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in japan it probably won't mean much outside of having a second launch - especially if it's with a nsw sku. in the west, it would be a lot more necessary by the time a western version would exist to have a ps5 sku because retailers like best buy probably won't have shelf space for ps4 games by the time this game is ready.

 

[AniHawk]

I see. Well thanks for the breakdown on how that all works. I never got around to playing the first game but it definitely was on my radar, just haven't found the time to actually grab it. It's a shame that that will be the end for the series unless a port to Switch or PS5 does massively well I'm assuming?

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dungeon crawlers don't cost quite as much to make as other genre games. the reason why visual novels are so prevalent is because you're not paying quite so many people to come up with gameplay systems, level design, sprite work, etc. for the most part, if you have a story that you want to tell, you're good to go. labyrinth may get a third release just to make sure the series is good and dead. they already have a core engine from two previous games, and the budget would to the level design and asset creation, mainly. the cutscenes in these games are just visual novel-like character bust-up conversations, which is all they need to be.

this probably would have done well had it released this year in the west, which might have given a better indication to pursue a sequel right away or not.

 

[foxuzamaki]

They released a new game on Vita in 2020? I wonder what idiot approved that.

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It kept getting pushed back and instead of moving development over to the switch, despite the switch port being a success for them, they were too stubborn and kept with vita in order to keep costs down

 

[Weebos]

I bounced off Refrain but it sounds like I should give it another shot.

I just don't like NIS's humor, but maybe playing with Japanese audio would help.

 

[Theswweet]

in japan it probably won't mean much outside of having a second launch - especially if it's with a nsw sku. in the west, it would be a lot more necessary by the time a western version would exist to have a ps5 sku because retailers like best buy probably won't have shelf space for ps4 games by the time this game is ready.

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Yeah, that makes more sense. I'd imagine a digital PS4 release might happen to cover bases, considering there'd be no real reason not to.

 

[Zen Hero]

Sigh I want to play a good dungeon crawler but I was turned off from this series by the character designs being too perverted on the one hand, and the monster designs being too creepy on the other hand. I wish the dungeon crawler genre would take itself more mainstream instead of continually driving further into niche.

 

[xir]

what's a drpg?

 

[plau]

1000 year old dragon.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

I recently bought Refrain, this just means that I have two years to play it.

what's a drpg?

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Dungeon RPG

Usually this means First Person Turn Based RPG like Etrian Odyssey.

 

[xir]

Dungeon RPG

Usually this means First Person Turn Based RPG like Etrian Odyssey.

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that was my guess, but never heard it. usually dungeon crawler

 

[Theswweet]

1000 year old dragon.

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There's a reason why I said the game isn't bad "except for the Facet designs".

Those are bad, but thankfully you'll only see them for like 0.1% of the game. The rest of it is actually good about lacking fanservice - I don't know why these designs are really in the game, other than just re-using art from Refrain.

 

[OmegaDL50]

So I guess similar premise as Witch and the Hundred Knight. Sequel in the same world / universe but with completely new characters and no one returning from the first game.

I got very far in Labyrinth of Refrain, I actually was working on my ideal setup for my Puppets a lot of reincarnation and job class switching to get ideal abilities, but for some reason I put the game down. I definitely need to return to it but what I've played I enjoyed very much.

A shame about what they did with the sequel's release. Bit of unfortunate mess releasing on the Vita of all things in 2020. I have a feeling NISA is also doing the same thing with Disgaea 6 to be honest by releasing solely on the Switch and completely ignoring a PS4 / PS5 and PC release.

This company already lost a lot of staff due to some disagreements. Would be a terrible shame if they closed up shop because continued trend of bad decisions. I am huge fan of Disgaea too.

 

[Theswweet]

So I guess similar premise as Witch and the Hundred Knight. Sequel in the same world / universe but with completely new characters and no one returning from the first game.

I got very far in Labyrinth of Refrain, I actually was working on my ideal setup for my Puppets a lot of reincarnation and job class switching to get ideal abilities, but for some reason I put the game down. I definitely need to return to it but what I've played I enjoyed very much.

A shame about what they did with the sequel's release. Bit of unfortunate mess releasing on the Vita of all things in 2020. I have a feeling NISA is also doing the same thing with Disgaea 6 to be honest by releasing solely on the Switch and completely ignoring a PS4 / PS5 and PC release.

This company already lost a lot of staff due to some disagreements. Would be a terrible shame if they closed up shop because continued trend of bad decisions. I am huge fan of Disgaea too.

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Actually, seems like it's a Final Fantasy-type sequel. Different universe.

 

[Joseph Flemming]

Is it NIS's fate to just release games that never sell?

Admittedly I'm part of the problem. I think the last game I played of theirs was ZHP (which I adored).

Click to shrink...

i loved ZHP, I was playing that and my PSP broke before I got a chance to finish it. Wish that got ported to the Switch.I was always curious about Refrain even though I questioned the design choice of creating "puppets"as opposed to constructing a normal party (I know that's just a narrative conceit).

So I download the demo and starting to get into things when you meet the one- eyed sister... ahem, that was reallybad and borderline to much for me, I don't think forceful and unwanted touching should be played for laughs. I almost stopped playing, is there a lot more of this going forward?

 

[Viale]

I'm usually not into DRPGs, but you have my curiosity. Let me see the eshop. Is the first one on sales often enough?

 

[FinFunnels]

Oh wow, this is the first I'm hearing of this game series and I used to be a big NIS fan.

Is Coven of Dusk the first game? I see that it's $30 on Steam.

Is it NIS's fate to just release games that never sell?

Admittedly I'm part of the problem. I think the last game I played of theirs was ZHP (which I adored).

Click to shrink...

ZHP was amazing! I loved the story/humor and the gameplay managed to hook just as well as the Disgaea games. I wish they'd port it to PC or modern consoles, I'd love to play it again.

 

[Theswweet]

i loved ZHP, I was playing that and my PSP broke before I got a chance to finish it. Wish that got ported to the Switch.I was always curious about Refrain even though I questioned the design choice of creating "puppets"as opposed to constructing a normal party (I know that's just a narrative conceit).

So I download the demo and starting to get into things when you meet the one- eyed sister... ahem, that was reallybad and borderline to much for me, I don't think forceful and unwanted touching should be played for laughs. I almost stopped playing, is there a lot more of this going forward?

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Thankfully, there's not - that scene, in particular, is especially odd considering a story beat later.

Oh wow, this is the first I'm hearing of this game series and I used to be a big NIS fan.

Is Coven of Dusk the first game? I see that it's $30 on Steam.

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Yeah Labyrinth of Refrain is the first in the series.

 

[Joseph Flemming]

Thankfully, there's not - that scene, in particular, is especially odd considering a story beat later.



Yeah Labyrinth of Refrain is the first in the series.

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Ok, so I love Etrian Odyyans years ago I was a lot more tolerant of NIS's "fan service", that said I've grown as a person and I am frankly tired of that kind of stuff. If that's the worse of it, I'll go ahead and continue. Does the progress you make in the demo carry over into the main game?
Edit : correct some typos.

 

[sredgrin]

I'm so exhausted by the "it's a good game, even if it has obvioust pedobait in it" like that's a mild thing, like oh the traffic is bad but the food is worth the drive.

 

[AniHawk]

Ok, so I love Etrian Odyyans years ago I was a lot more tolerant of NIS's "fan service", that said I've grown as a person and I am frankly tired of that kind of stuff. If that's the worse of it, I'll go ahead and continue. Does the progress you make in the demo carry over into the main game?
Edit : correct some typos.

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demo data does carry over.

if you're worried about non-consensual sexual content, there is more of it in the game, but it isn't played for laughs. i feel like it would be good to point it out because this can still be a problem for people even though the story treats it seriously. on the whole, i think it's handled fairly well, even though it falls into some crappy tropes (namely, bury your gays).

the scene with marietta is supposed to serve a couple purposes in the overall context of the story. one is clearer on a replay for internal story reasons. externally, i think it's meant to make the world seem a lot more lighthearted and sillier before the heavier stuff comes in. the director similarly made metallia in the witch and the hundred knight an awful person so that her redemption would have more meaning in the very end (note: i haven't actually played this one - just watched the ending cutscenes for context). not that i think it makes the scene good. with the full context, there were other ways to do what the director was trying to achieve.

 

[Instro]

I think I either bought Refrain, or have it on a wishlist somewhere. Regardless I need to get around to it. Good to hear that the followup is solid, albeit the release seems to be quite an unfortunate blunder on NIS's part.

 

[Theswweet]

demo data does carry over.

if you're worried about non-consensual sexual content, there is more of it in the game, but it isn't played for laughs. i feel like it would be good to point it out because this can still be a problem for people even though the story treats it seriously. on the whole, i think it's handled fairly well, even though it falls into some crappy tropes (namely, bury your gays).

the scene with marietta is supposed to serve a couple purposes in the overall context of the story. one is clearer on a replay for internal story reasons. externally, i think it's meant to make the world seem a lot more lighthearted and sillier before the heavier stuff comes in. the director similarly made metallia in the witch and the hundred knight an awful person so that her redemption would have more meaning in the very end (note: i haven't actually played this one - just watched the ending cutscenes for context). not that i think it makes the scene good. with the full context, there were other ways to do what the director was trying to achieve.

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This is a good assessment, I think. Far as I can tell Galleria handles the tone much, much better - I feel it'll be even more palpable for most players if and whenever it comes over.

 

[GarudaSmiles]

I really enjoyed the first game. In fact it's the first NIS game I've really liked since Soul Nomad. Glad to hear the sequel is good. Shame that it's bombing.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

I just got my ass kicked by the final boss.

 

[Theswweet]

I just got my ass kicked by the final boss.

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oh no

 

[RedNine]

Galleria is great, one of my favorite titles this year, but I actually think it's a lot harder to recommend than Refrain, there's a lot of things in the structure of the game that are more likely to annoy people.

Spoiler: Game structure

Having more than half of the game being randomly generated dungeons probably won't sit well with people who are expecting more carefully designed dungeons like the ones in the prologue. There's a lot of patience required in order to clear the random dungeons in the game, especially the second postgame one, which is 3651 floors long.

And unlike Refrain, Galleria doesn't have a conclusive ending in the main game, it requires you to play the postgame in order to finish the story.

Second half

Spoiler: not really spoiler but just in case

happens when you overheard people having sex

Spoiler: actual spoiler

it reveals Eureka's sexual history. I know it's designed to be part of Eureka's characterization, that she knows she's seen as an idiot and she wants others to like her, but it really doesn't work here. I've seen people posting screenshots of that scene and it's treated as an anime joke. It can be executed better.

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A lot of people have been posting screenshots and clickbait youtube videos of that scene with disgusting comments and reactions, but I found it to be appropriately shocking in the actual game, it's just disappointing how most Japanese players react to that kind of revelation.

Actually, seems like it's a Final Fantasy-type sequel. Different universe.

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There are a lot of hints of direct connections between Refrain and Galleria, and I feel like Izumi is building up for a third game in the series that will probably connect the two, but Hundred Knight will probably keep being it's own separate game despite sharing a lot of lore.

 

[Theswweet]

Huh. I haven't caught the hints yet, though that could be because I played Refrain in English so I could be missing something in reverse-translation. Either way - knowledge of Refrain def isn't necessary.

 

[RedNine]

I think most of the hints were in the postgame and it requires having played Refrain's postgame, NISA also seems to have messed up one of the lines in Refrain's translation that is related to the possible direct connection between the two, so there's also that.

But yes, it's definitely not necessary to play Refrain before this one, and there's no telling if the connections will be important in a future game or are just there as a nod for people who played Refrain.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

A lot of people have been posting screenshots and clickbait youtube videos of that scene with disgusting comments and reactions, but I found it to be appropriately shocking in the actual game, it's just disappointing how most Japanese players react to that kind of revelation.

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I'm okay with the revelation itself though it is indeed unnecessary. However, the conclusion to the scene was a big yikes.

Spoiler

"I didn't say no and also didn't feel bad, because that made everyone so happy!" should not have the victim say this with a smile, that's straight up pervo fantasy.

 

[Theswweet]

RedNine Aestivalis I just started having some of my puppets hit lv99, how early should I start soul transferring/grinding clarity? I know I'll need to for the true ending, so...

I just

Spoiler

Returned to Alstera after Natyl hopped over to the other Galleria.

I figure the higher floors of this dungeon would be decent to grind out for a bit if need be.

 

[RedNine]

I started soul transferring as soon as I started hitting lvl 99. I would suggest starting with the less useful puppets you have in your party so they can grab useful skills from other classes and start doing for the others once the first ones start reaching lvl 50.

At the end of the day, the most important thing will be equipment, so I'm not sure if it's that useful to soul transfer a lot, as farming equipment in the postgame is far more important for stat raising.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

I haven't touched the postgame yet but it would be safer to have a team of 40 to 50 clarity to beat the normal ending boss.

 

[Theswweet]

So Soul Transfer at least twice would be smart, got it. Thanks, folks!

 

[Deleted member 11976]

Labyrinth of Refrain is on sale, 60% off, on Switch right now.

Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site for Canada

Buy Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store Canada.

www.nintendo.com

 

[Theswweet]

It's also $18 on the Steam sale!

 

[Joseph Flemming]

Labyrinth of Refrain is on sale, 60% off, on Switch right now.

Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site for Canada

Buy Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store Canada.

www.nintendo.com

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I guess this is perfect timing. Work kept me away from finishing the demo, but I just hit the end and was still on the fence.This sale pushes things over the edge. I'm in, love the gameplay, interested to see where things go from here and I'll keep my fingers crossed on the blatant creepy fanservice.

 

[Deleted member 11976]

I guess this is perfect timing. Work kept me away from finishing the demo, but I just hit the end and was still on the fence.This sale pushes things over the edge. I'm in, love the gameplay, interested to see where things go from here and I'll keep my fingers crossed on the blatant creepy fanservice.

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Same, I'm going to give it a chance but I'm hoping the fan service is kept to a minimum. I also really hope I can turn off the voices or switch to a JP language track because the EN dub is brutal.

 

[Deleted member 11976]

Played a few hours of Refrain last night. I like the mapping and dungeon crawler aspects. I got stuck on the 2nd floor because I guess I was missing a single tile that contained a staircase down to the 3rd floor. Only after I stumbled upon that final square (I had mapped out everything else on 1F and 2F, aside from maybe hidden sections behind breakable walls I can't reach yet.) did I get the option to advance the story.

The writing so far has been decent. Thankfully, both the options exist to either turn down voice volume and to switch to the JP language track. I turned it down because Luca's EN voice acting is insufferable. I almost feel bad for her though since Dronya is such an asshole!

I then hit the bit in the Abbey with Marietta and I, uh, really hope run-ins with her aren't a regular thing because of the sexual assault stuff. It's not fan service but, in the same fashion, it seems completely unnecessary.

I can tell the systems in the game will have tonnes of depth but I'm wondering how long I'll be able to stay invested before I get overwhelmed. I've usually been able to get 10-20h into various Etrian Odyssey titles before bouncing off them or completely forgetting how things work, if that helps illustrate my (lack of) experience with DRPGs. Still, mechanically this seems more interesting to me than EO games.

Anyhow, I'm diving into the 3rd floor later tonight. Hoping the game starts to open up a bit more in terms of player abilities and puppet army capacity. 4F seems brutal (I've fallen down there and been KOd) so I feel like a lot will happen down on 3F. Time will tell!

 

[Joseph Flemming]

Played a few hours of Refrain last night. I like the mapping and dungeon crawler aspects. I got stuck on the 2nd floor because I guess I was missing a single tile that contained a staircase down to the 3rd floor. Only after I stumbled upon that final square (I had mapped out everything else on 1F and 2F, aside from maybe hidden sections behind breakable walls I can't reach yet.) did I get the option to advance the story.

The writing so far has been decent. Thankfully, both the options exist to either turn down voice volume and to switch to the JP language track. I turned it down because Luca's EN voice acting is insufferable. I almost feel bad for her though since Dronya is such an asshole!

I then hit the bit in the Abbey with Marietta and I, uh, really hope run-ins with her aren't a regular thing because of the sexual assault stuff. It's not fan service but, in the same fashion, it seems completely unnecessary.

I can tell the systems in the game will have tonnes of depth but I'm wondering how long I'll be able to stay invested before I get overwhelmed. I've usually been able to get 10-20h into various Etrian Odyssey titles before bouncing off them or completely forgetting how things work, if that helps illustrate my (lack of) experience with DRPGs. Still, mechanically this seems more interesting to me than EO games.

Anyhow, I'm diving into the 3rd floor later tonight. Hoping the game starts to open up a bit more in terms of player abilities and puppet army capacity. 4F seems brutal (I've fallen down there and been KOd) so I feel like a lot will happen down on 3F. Time will tell!

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So I am just a bit further on than you and they do start layering on mechanics, I think if you made it this far you will be fine. They introduce new stuff at a nice pace. Now I hope it stays this way because I plan to binge this game as my main game over the holiday.

This and Shiren should keep me busy.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

I still don't get why Galleria is rated CERO D while Refrain was CERO C.

 

[Theswweet]

I still don't get why Galleria is rated CERO D while Refrain was CERO C.

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Yeah, that *is* surprising. I wonder why?

 

[Tibarn]

Refrain was a big surprise for me, I enjoyed the game a lot and even unlocked the true ending (which means several hours of pure dungeon crawling with little new story content).

Knowing that Galleria is even better makes me really hyped for the game, I wonder if NISA will announce it soonish for later next year, AFAIK they have not announced a lot of games for 2021 yet.

 

[Deleted member 11976]

So I am just a bit further on than you and they do start layering on mechanics, I think if you made it this far you will be fine. They introduce new stuff at a nice pace. Now I hope it stays this way because I plan to binge this game as my main game over the holiday.

This and Shiren should keep me busy.

Click to shrink...

Yeah it does really amp up after hitting 3F proper.

One thing I'm struggling with now, however, is keeping tabs on what enemies are weak to spells or weapon damage types. Is there a skill or book ability that lets you "discover" and keep notes on weaknesses as you hit enemies with them? I'm trying to think about which games have done this in the past... maybe the Persona series? It's great that most enemies show their health bar but I wish the UI, in that same spot, could show "weak to fire donum" after I score a crit with a fire spell, for example.

 

[eXistor]

Loving Refrain so far. It took a few hours to click (the dungeon exploration is pretty bare-bones at this point), but I'm now some 17 hours into it and it has its grip on me. Our country is in lockdown for the next few weeks anyway so I can dump my time in this.

It's been fairly smooth sailing but I got to the Troll Shaman boss yesterday and got my ass handed to me in seconds. I really don't think I'm underleveled as everything so far has been pretty easy, but that was just a complete shitshow. I think I'm gonna grind a few levels and switch to piercing weapons. For experience, those metal tongues or whatever they are seem to do the trick.

Glad you recommended this, I was looking for a fun dungeon crawler and this is doing just nicely.