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nullref

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
Is it too late to "stop" climate change? Yes. Is it too late to mitigate the consequences of climate change in a way that reduces the resulting human suffering? No, though obviously choosing and implementing those mitigations is extremely complex.

Realistically (and sadly), I think it's going to take a truly monumental amount of (unevenly-distributed) human suffering to motivate the proportionally large changes necessary. That shouldn't preclude taking even small steps in the right direction, though.
 
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Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,798
Upstate NY
Step 1: Go to the polls on November 3rd and elect a President that actually believes in climate change and will take steps to rejoin the rest of the nations of the world in stopping it.
 

Florian

Member
Apr 4, 2018
114
step 1) blame others
step 2) don`t move before the others move first
step 3) complain about nothing happening while sitting in an air-conditioned room, eating a steak and watching the daily shit show on a 85~ TV
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
It's too late to stop like 2.5C but maybe not 4C, I think...? Stopping 2.5C would require incredible advances in carbon capture technology.

While it's true consumers create demand for consumption, it's also true that consumerism pushes excess consumption. Not every demand needs to be filled, and our future will rely on being able to separate "essential" demands (food, water, healthcare) from "nonessential" ones (new iPhones every year, car-based private transport) in the same way we separated "essential" jobs from "nonessential" jobs in COVID. The "free market" has failed to bring forth the low labor future prophesied by Keynes 50 years ago but COVID has forced us into it. So there are other avenues out of the climate crisis, but it'll involve abandoning market-based social organization.

Companies make their profits by making you want more pixels or cores or whatever in your latest gadget. Get rid of the drive for profit and people will settle for less shiny stuff. Humans have spent centuries without shiny stuff, human civilization would be sustainable at a 90s level of development, maybe, I've never seen anyone run the numbers here for a target level of sustainable modern development.
 
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kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
I do think it's too late to stop climate change, as it's impossible to have everyone on the same page, and too many people will continue to take convenience and luxury over what's responsible from an environmental point of view. Frankly, I think too many countries' more populated areas are designed too much about a reliance over owning a car or relying on bus transportation, and I don't think it's feasible to rework such areas in a way that completely disallows vehicles due to how zoning is handled. I'd love to live in an area in which it was feasible to walk everywhere, as I also have zero interest in relying on something like a bicycle, but the manner in which zoning keeps residences and businesses sectioned off the way they are doesn't really facilitate that, and the simple existence of roads that're wide enough for cars to travel on just makes everything that much further away from everything else.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
I usually like Kurzgesagt videos, but this one was bad.


Neither did it explain the systemic issues behind climate change, nor did it convey the severity of the problem, nor did it mention the necessary systemic changes as part of the solutions.


Naming population size first is a big mistake, per capita emissions are so unevenly distributed that half of humanity barely even registers. The problem is literally the richest 1 billion people, the rest doesn't even matter.
Even the emissions 3rd world countries have are in large parts caused by industrial production for western markets. This stuff appears on these poor people's carbon footprint, but it's actually caused by western consumption.

70% of global emissions are caused by 100 corporations. These corporations bribe politicians worldwide in order to be allowed to keep emitting.
The IMF even calculated that 6.5 of the global GDP were used a fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. That's roughly $5 trillion we spend on industries that are destroying the planet. Because powerful people want to protect their profits.
To put this insane number into perspective: If the 2017 fossil fuel subsidies were a country, they would have been the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world.

Degrowth should have been a bigger point. Redefining prosperity and leaving the notion behind that prosperity equals consumption and owning lots of stuff.

The cause of climate change and the reason why we haven't done anything against it is our economic system, without changing our economic system, we won't find a solution to climate change. We won't be able to innovate our way out of this mess. And we won't avoid climate change.


Literally, if we would want to keep global warming below 1.5°C we would need to reduce our global emission to zero by 2030.
Does anyone think we still have a chance to achieve that? That is a 100% reduction globally within not even 10 years.

We are 30 years too late to avoid climate change. We are currently on course to 4-7°C warming.


Whats missing in this video:
- The role of our economic system (Neoliberal capitalism) in climate change and how it distorts power structures and keeps our democracies from acting rationally

- International relations and climate change mitigation as a game-theoretical problem

- The global south likely becoming uninhabitable because of climate change and how we can deal with billions of refugees over the course of decades without industrially exterminating them

- The 1.5°C and 2°C warming scenarios and what would happen for us to achieve them.

- Degrowth, sustainability, and a focus on GHI (gross happiness index) instead of GDP, how can we redefine what wealth and prosperity mean?

- climate justice
 

Nintenleo

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,256
Italy
Covid actually gave me confidence we might be able to overcome climate change, at least in some parts of the world. I'm italian and the way our government has been able to handle the situation almost moves me to tears. There are great leaders capable of good choices. We just have to vote them.

The only problem is that having faith in american people (considering US' role in all of this) is getting harder and harder each day.
 

bombermouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,056
Giving up meat or animal products, gas cars, and fast fashion needs to happen and it's not.

This, fucking first world countries can't give out their precious lifestyle. These are literally superficial shit.

I hate the corporate blaming, ofc it's industries that contaminate, they do it to generate the shit you don't need but will buy to get that tasty growth. You vote every few years, but you also are the hand that regulate the market every day, vote with your wallet.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Yeah but this forum is 95% doomsayers who have no hope in humanity(or anything really).

You really think I'm going to believe humanity is finished based off of users on a forum? No sir.


I'm sorry but...


This is the scenario of 4°C warming:
n6rfrivigeq2_xnzGmEX.jpg


The orange and dark grey areas are uninhabitable.
That's literally the entire global south and even more.


So this is the scenario of 4°C warming. We are currently on course to 4-7°C and there is no improvement in sight - none.


Let's look at what would need to happen for us to avoid that.
The IPCC constantly updates it 1.5°C and 2°C scenarios, giving years by which we need to have reduced our global emissions to zero to have a 50% or 66% chance to stay below 1.5°C/2°C warming.

They look like this:
wjr70uuj1hj5_ctOpg8A.jpg

In order to have a realistic chance to stay below 1.5°C global warming, we would need to reduce our global emissions to zero within the next 10-20 years.


We haven't even started to bend that curve. It doesn't even look like we are going to start anytime soon.
In fact, it looks like we will continue to raise our emissions for the foreseeable future.



I am sorry to tell you this, but back in 1980, the situation was grim.

Now the situation is such that we should actually start preparing for relocating billions of people and the necessary infrastructure from the global south to the north.
Because if billions of people start to migrate out of necessity, it will be the biggest humanitarian crisis ever by long shot and it will result in the industrial extermination of hundreds of millions of climate refugees. This is a global crisis that will last for many decades, probably more than a century.



This is not something a climate scientist would say publicly, but this is what the data points towards.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Yeah but this forum is 95% doomsayers who have no hope in humanity(or anything really).

You really think I'm going to believe humanity is finished based off of users on a forum? No sir.

There's a fundamental difference between doomsaying and just accepting the facts of climate change.

Are we doomed as a species due to climate change? No, we are not.

Will enough of the world's nation get their act together to actually implement necessary changes in the next 5-10 years that will upend a lot of the conveniences that most people have grown accustomed to? The answer is very likely to be no. And, this is the kicker here, we are not moving fast enough as a species to properly address the problem. A problem that will require a fundamental change in our way of life.

This is so much more a cultural/sociological issue than whether we have the capabilities to actually address the problem. Given the nature of the extreme polarization of politics and vested interest and lobbying from energy corporations, the change will be slow.

When the change is slow, many events will inevitably happen before these forces finally accept the fact that they are the fucking problem (governments and energy companies) and do something about it. These events that will likely happen are a culling of the population of some sort through to climate refugees, lack of resources and food, and etc. In addition to crops that humans have relied on for millenniums (wheat and rice) will no longer be viable in many regions of the planet due to increase temps.

Additional events will be a fundamental change in our ecosystems that will not survive because insects and other organisms will not adapt to the new "normal" fast enough. Clear example are bees. They help germinate and spread the growth of plants. They are likely to likely drastically decrease in population around the world, leading to a collapse to the local ecology in which they inhabit. And, this is just one family of insects. Imagine thousands to millions of other families of insects going extinct. The end result is incalculable.

In the end, those of us that are relegated to accepting these doomsday scenario is because all signs points to these doomsday scenarios.

I usually like Kurzgesagt videos, but this one was bad.


Neither did it explain the systemic issues behind climate change, nor did it convey the severity of the problem, nor did it mention the necessary systemic changes as part of the solutions.


Naming population size first is a big mistake, per capita emissions are so unevenly distributed that half of humanity barely even registers. The problem is literally the richest 1 billion people, the rest doesn't even matter.
Even the emissions 3rd world countries have are in large parts caused by industrial production for western markets. This stuff appears on these poor people's carbon footprint, but it's actually caused by western consumption.

70% of global emissions are caused by 100 corporations. These corporations bribe politicians worldwide in order to be allowed to keep emitting.
The IMF even calculated that 6.5 of the global GDP were used a fossil fuel subsidies in 2017. That's roughly $5 trillion we spend on industries that are destroying the planet. Because powerful people want to protect their profits.
To put this insane number into perspective: If the 2017 fossil fuel subsidies were a country, they would have been the 3rd or 4th largest economy in the world.

Degrowth should have been a bigger point. Redefining prosperity and leaving the notion behind that prosperity equals consumption and owning lots of stuff.

The cause of climate change and the reason why we haven't done anything against it is our economic system, without changing our economic system, we won't find a solution to climate change. We won't be able to innovate our way out of this mess. And we won't avoid climate change.


Literally, if we would want to keep global warming below 1.5°C we would need to reduce our global emission to zero by 2030.
Does anyone think we still have a chance to achieve that? That is a 100% reduction globally within not even 10 years.

We are 30 years too late to avoid climate change. We are currently on course to 4-7°C warming.


Whats missing in this video:
- The role of our economic system (Neoliberal capitalism) in climate change and how it distorts power structures and keeps our democracies from acting rationally

- International relations and climate change mitigation as a game-theoretical problem

- The global south likely becoming uninhabitable because of climate change and how we can deal with billions of refugees over the course of decades without industrially exterminating them

- The 1.5°C and 2°C warming scenarios and what would happen for us to achieve them.

- Degrowth, sustainability, and a focus on GHI (gross happiness index) instead of GDP, how can we redefine what wealth and prosperity mean?

- climate justice

Thank you, this post is very informative.
 
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samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
And since people like to go "bu-bu-but socialism never works", let's compare per capita emissions between the West and, say, Cuba/Vietnam which lean pretty socialist though even their economies are mixed these days, trending increasingly capitalist due to foreign pressure.

gVCdhVe.png


And keep in mind a lot of that is emissions driven by tourism/cars... industries which were instigated by Western financial institutions in order to boost Western corporate interests. Which is also the main reason China's per capita emissions are spiking. Beyond being the manufacturing center of the world (most of their factories exist to fulfill our demand), we've exported American notions of consumerism to them. What's really interesting here is that the US were once exporting our emissions in the 90s before we became net importers in the 00s.

1990
Z3eiWaV.png

2017
GVO9ViP.png
 

TheXbox

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,582
No mention of diet here? I thought America's meat obsession was actually a huge contributor to global warming.
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
Yes, it is complicated. For instance, as Bill Rees (a pre-eminent ecological economist and co originator of the ecological footprint concept) suggests, green energy without a culture shift may also be subject to the rebound effect, i.e., just facilitates current or even higher levels of consumption. We need to ramp down consumption in the West. We have an extremely wasteful culture, plus we need to leave leeway for other developing countries to improve their material circumstances.

why? are you a conspiracy theorist?

Bill Gates is a techno-optimist...he isn't really in favour of the kind of systematic socio-economic transformations that are needed to best ramp down carbon emissions in a more equitable fashion.
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
I'm sorry but...


This is the scenario of 4°C warming:
n6rfrivigeq2_xnzGmEX.jpg


The orange and dark grey areas are uninhabitable.
That's literally the entire global south and even more.


So this is the scenario of 4°C warming. We are currently on course to 4-7°C and there is no improvement in sight - none.


Let's look at what would need to happen for us to avoid that.
The IPCC constantly updates it 1.5°C and 2°C scenarios, giving years by which we need to have reduced our global emissions to zero to have a 50% or 66% chance to stay below 1.5°C/2°C warming.

They look like this:
wjr70uuj1hj5_ctOpg8A.jpg

In order to have a realistic chance to stay below 1.5°C global warming, we would need to reduce our global emissions to zero within the next 10-20 years.


We haven't even started to bend that curve. It doesn't even look like we are going to start anytime soon.
In fact, it looks like we will continue to raise our emissions for the foreseeable future.



I am sorry to tell you this, but back in 1980, the situation was grim.

Now the situation is such that we should actually start preparing for relocating billions of people and the necessary infrastructure from the global south to the north.
Because if billions of people start to migrate out of necessity, it will be the biggest humanitarian crisis ever by long shot and it will result in the industrial extermination of hundreds of millions of climate refugees. This is a global crisis that will last for many decades, probably more than a century.



This is not something a climate scientist would say publicly, but this is what the data points towards.
Yeah this.

The "doom" and gloom is not predicated on if things will get worse or not; it will. It's just a matter of how much worse.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,304
The problem is we can't even get started.

Yep. Not much else to say.

Whether it's too late isn't even a static target - too late for what? It's already too late by some metrics, say "prevent record-breaking wildfires and hurricanes". But it's never too late to stop making it worse, or start reversing it.

But we can't even stop accelerating the "making it worse". We're not at step 1. We're at step -2.
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
On the issue of being a doomsayer, I think there is a difference between hope and optimism. I am hopeful that many of the solutions that exist out there (community level renewable energy, permaculture, nature climate solutions, rewilding, citizens assemblies, cycling infrastructure, enhanced and affordable public transport, etc, etc) will gain increasing acceptance, and seed in whatever world emerges over the next centuries.

But I also fear that the very thing that needs to change the most and fasted - our economic system - is that which is most resistant to change. I don't want coasts to be submerged, tropical forests to suffer increasing drought, and ice fields to melt to protect our current fucking economic dogma. Fuck the economy, we'll build a new one! And ain't just going to be the same communist / capitalist dialectic...degrowth and ecological economics are a thing.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
If a train is barreling towards you, saying "the train is going to run me over soon" is not "defeatism". While optimism for the future is valuable, an optimism that fails to recognize the severity of the challenges ahead is useless, maybe even harmful. They had this kind of "optimism" in the 80s and you can see the results of it for yourself. All it did was prevent them from making the hard choices they needed to make to stop 2.5C. Every feel-good initiative like banning plastic straws or Earth Day or whatever the fuck just pushes responsibility to civilians. Civilians have been trying to "greenify" their behavior for decades, and now wealth inequality is as high as it was in at the turn of the 20th century and our leaders want people to give up more? It's time for capital to give up shit as well because god knows they haven't been.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,304
Well, end of the day, it`s down to the people.. the consumers... who consume, overconsume the natural resources.
Factorys produce (and pollute), because there is a demand. And there will be no fairy, bringing clean pure energy so everybody can still consume guilt free and live happily ever after.
There is no free lunch.

So, this in an enthusiast forum, celebrating the new console generation, new large TVs, burning a shitload of resources for personal entertainment, while pointing fingers at others to save the world- it´s not working like that.

PEOPLE NEED TO REDUCE THEIR CO2 FOOTPRINT. This is not done by signing a treaty and buying a Tesla.

100% disagree. This is a global problem, and requires global, or at least extremely large-scale, solutions. Your individual contribution does nothing until our systems are changed to address it.

You can go to California and spit on a forest fire and say "I did my part!". Maybe that will make you feel better. Maybe it'll allow you to look down on others. But it won't help.

It would be a far, far more effective contribution if you convince one other person, not to attempt to fight the systems in place by refusing to buy a TV, but just to acknowledge the problem and join with those of us who are demanding, and voting for, our leaders to address it.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
We're going wise up and it's going to be difficult for us, but we're going to get through it. We just need more rude wake up calls and countless kicks in the face first.

Unfortunately.
yeeeeh.. no. The amount of people that protest against wearing face masks are not suddenly go out of their way to help polute less, use less water, drive less, eat less meat etc etc etc. your optimism is misguided unfortionatly. Climate change is technically stoppable but we cant even get started. so honestly we are not getting out of this, and there is no time to "wise up". we should wise up Right now, or 10 to 20 years ago. not in maybe 10 years, or the next election. Its far too late for "we are going to"

100% disagree. This is a global problem, and requires global, or at least extremely large-scale, solutions. Your individual contribution does nothing until our systems are changed to address it.

You can go to California and spit on a forest fire and say "I did my part!". Maybe that will make you feel better. Maybe it'll allow you to look down on others. But it won't help.

It would be a far, far more effective contribution if you convince one other person, not to attempt to fight the systems in place by refusing to buy a TV, but just to acknowledge the problem and join with those of us who are demanding, and voting for, our leaders to address it.

It def needs to be on both sides.. Big corps are not going to do anything unless people consume differently. Look at electric cars for example.
People are not going to do shit unless they are forced to consume differently, but that wont happen as long as the government is for sale by big corps.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
And since people like to go "bu-bu-but socialism never works", let's compare per capita emissions between the West and, say, Cuba/Vietnam which lean pretty socialist though even their economies are mixed these days, trending increasingly capitalist due to foreign pressure.

That's more due to Cuba and Vietnam being developing nations unlike China and the US. China has for the most part become a developed nation and as a result its emissions spiked along with its population. Same thing happens to the US in the mid 20th century and to Europe in the late 19th.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
That's more due to Cuba and Vietnam being developing nations unlike China and the US. China has for the most part become a developed nation and as a result its emissions spiked along with its population. Same thing happens to the US in the mid 20th century and to Europe in the late 19th.
There is no reasonable future where everyone in the world develops to the US/China level without a drastic increase in, say, nuclear power. We need to pursue a policy of undevelopment. The idea that "everyone should develop with more cars and travel and technological luxuries" is itself the problem.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
There is no reasonable future where everyone in the world develops to the US/China level without a drastic increase in, say, nuclear power. We need to pursue a policy of undevelopment. The idea that "everyone should develop with more cars and travel and technological luxuries" is itself the problem.

Alternatively we focus on funding public transportation and renewable power in developing nations. Otherwise as the video mentioned developing nations will just repeat the mistakes of the developed world. Cities have taken on all sorts of different forms throughout history, the idea they all need to accommodate cars and burn fossil fuels is relatively new and is not the only way.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
There is no reasonable future where everyone in the world develops to the US/China level without a drastic increase in, say, nuclear power. We need to pursue a policy of undevelopment. The idea that "everyone should develop with more cars and travel and technological luxuries" is itself the problem.

I'd argue that development is not necessarily the problem. The larger problem is the shift of energy sources and means to reduce carbon output into the atmosphere. Though I do agree with you that more societies, especially the US, needs to have a large change in attitude towards public transportation and demand the development of them.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,304
yeeeeh.. no. The amount of people that protest against wearing face masks are not suddenly go out of their way to help polute less, use less water, drive less, eat less meat etc etc etc. your optimism is misguided unfortionatly. Climate change is technically stoppable but we cant even get started. so honestly we are not getting out of this, and there is no time to "wise up". we should wise up Right now, or 10 to 20 years ago. not in maybe 10 years, or the next election. Its far too late for "we are going to"



It def needs to be on both sides.. Big corps are not going to do anything unless people consume differently. Look at electric cars for example.
People are not going to do shit unless they are forced to consume differently, but that wont happen as long as the government is for sale by big corps.

If it were possible to get enough people to individually act differently, that would be fine. But that day will come well after the day we get enough people to admit there's a problem and ask our leaders to find it. If we hit the first - a majority of people agree a solution is necessary - then that is the appropriate time for unified individual action.

Until then, sure, do what you can, but don't presume to say "I'm doing my part" and look down on others. That's all I'm saying. I do my best, too, but I know all it amounts to is slapping a mosquito. It's not helping the fight against malaria.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I'd argue that development is not necessarily the problem. The larger problem is the shift of energy sources. Though I do agree with you that more societies, especially the US, needs to have a large change in attitude towards public transportation and demand the development of them.
Development can be achieved without spiking emissions but the United States model of more stuff more consumption is clearly a dead end. Also we developed at the cost of an enormous amount of total emissions, it would be unfair to not give other countries a chance to develop as well. So really we need two broad policies.

1) Undevelopment in the richest, highest consuming countries (because they can afford the pain and they already have a ton of capital built up from their historical development)

2) A sustainable development roadmap for developing/undeveloped nations, and economic support from the countries in the above category
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Development can be achieved without spiking emissions but the United States model of more stuff more consumption is clearly a dead end. Also we developed at the cost of an enormous amount of total emissions, it would be unfair to not give other countries a chance to develop as well. So really we need two broad policies.

1) Undevelopment in the richest, highest consuming countries (because they can afford the pain and they already have a ton of capital built up from their historical development)

2) A sustainable development roadmap for developing/undeveloped nations, and economic support from the countries in the above category

After you explaining these conditions, then yes, I absolutely agree that we (the most developed nations) need to tone down our energy consumption.

I also agree with developed nations helping developing nations to undergo sustainable development roadmap as well.

I guess it wasn't clear to me what you meant by undevelopment from your earlier post. Thanks for clarifying!
 

Niks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,309
We would need a movie level disaster for people to change its ways.
People dont give a fuck about gradual changes.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I guess it wasn't clear to me what you meant by undevelopment from your earlier post. Thanks for clarifying!
Yeah I wasn't totally clear I meant reallocating "development leeway" to the people who need it the most. That is my mistake. I'm not advocating for an across the board global undevelopment plan though that would probably work the best and is also part of wat I consider to be the worst case scenario (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofascism).

Every human activity produces some amount of emissions, so we should triage "development" like we would ration medicine and focus on improving the "development" per unit of emissions and also directly allocating it to the needy rather than the rich.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,940
Austin, TX
How can you possibly believe this after COVID-19? Please, inspire me to be "optimistic" again.
You mean to tell me that you don't think that people of the world could join together across the lines of national and party lines to help to avert a negative outcome that is gradual to the point of invisibility with only the word of scientists to go on? But surely people would be inspired to sacrifice of short term gains after they read about the small positive impact of their actions that would be potentially visible to scientists after several years of concerted effort!
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
We would need a movie level disaster for people to change its ways.
People dont give a fuck about gradual changes.
We're already living through that, It's called Covid.

Covid proved to me, we're fucked. Because we can't get our act together to tackle a literal plague, in a serious way. Let alone a problem which in a vast majority of people think of as an abstract problem.

EDIT: just wanted to say, my post isn't a dig at you.
 

IpKaiFung

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,413
Wales
I'm sorry but...


This is the scenario of 4°C warming:
n6rfrivigeq2_xnzGmEX.jpg


The orange and dark grey areas are uninhabitable.
That's literally the entire global south and even more.


So this is the scenario of 4°C warming. We are currently on course to 4-7°C and there is no improvement in sight - none.


Let's look at what would need to happen for us to avoid that.
The IPCC constantly updates it 1.5°C and 2°C scenarios, giving years by which we need to have reduced our global emissions to zero to have a 50% or 66% chance to stay below 1.5°C/2°C warming.

They look like this:
wjr70uuj1hj5_ctOpg8A.jpg

In order to have a realistic chance to stay below 1.5°C global warming, we would need to reduce our global emissions to zero within the next 10-20 years.


We haven't even started to bend that curve. It doesn't even look like we are going to start anytime soon.
In fact, it looks like we will continue to raise our emissions for the foreseeable future.



I am sorry to tell you this, but back in 1980, the situation was grim.

Now the situation is such that we should actually start preparing for relocating billions of people and the necessary infrastructure from the global south to the north.
Because if billions of people start to migrate out of necessity, it will be the biggest humanitarian crisis ever by long shot and it will result in the industrial extermination of hundreds of millions of climate refugees. This is a global crisis that will last for many decades, probably more than a century.



This is not something a climate scientist would say publicly, but this is what the data points towards.

Shocking part is that companies like Exxon knew about this in the 80s and did fuck all. They were content to enough to fill their pockets.

We're already living through that, It's called Covid.

Covid proved to me, we're fucked. Because we can't get our act together to tackle a literal plague, in a serious way. Let alone a problem which in a vast majority of people think of as an abstract problem.

EDIT: just wanted to say, my post isn't a dig at you.

Money is never the problem, as evidenced by all the dodgy contacts the UK government have been handing out. It's all about their will to actually do something and when faced with Covid-19, they have failed.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,746
Scotland
It was already too late in the '70s/'80s so to think we can get together and do something about it, now 30 years later, while the biggest polluters carry on polluting, is wishful thinking. We want electricity and plastics and oil and fresh fruit and veg out of season all day every day and copious amounts of animal flesh in all shapes and sizes and somewhere to park your car and how you deserve a holiday somewhere hot and sunny that you fly to and well you have kids so they need all the things that your neighbours' kids have and all the while the biggest polluters keep on polluting. It was too late yesterday. We aren't coming together and making sacrifices for this. If we were going to we would have but oh look more division and separation and ideological width everywhere you look.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Shocking part is that companies like Exxon knew about this in the 80s and did fuck all.
Oh, they did a lot.
They started a massive decade-spanning propaganda and lobby campaign to spread doubt about climate change and protect their fossil fuel profits.

The level of criminality on display here kind of exceeds the range of meaning the term criminality has.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
First, we ain't stopping shit. The consequences of our actions will be felt for millennia. But what we can do this century is slow the growth of warming and give future generations a better shot at surviving and maybe unfucking a little more of our BS.

As David Wallace-Wells puts it:
"Two degrees would be terrible, but it's better than three, at which point Southern Europe would be in permanent drought, African droughts would last five years on average, and the areas burned annually by wildfires in the United States could quadruple, or worse, from last year's million-plus acres.
And three degrees is much better than four, at which point six natural disasters could strike a single community simultaneously; the number of climate refugees, already in the millions, could grow tenfold, or 20-fold, or more; and, globally, damages from warming could reach $600 trillion — about double all the wealth that exists in the world today. "

2C global average will be hell enough, so we should do all that we can to avoid worse. That's my mindset at this point since we're not stopping 2C. The Arctic is going to disappear in the summers regularly in our lifetimes. The eastern Antarctic shelf is looking sketch as hell and could collapse within our lifetimes (which would more or less be GG for our civilization as we've known it since agriculture started).
Shiiiii, no one planned for the Amazon, one of our greatest carbon sinks and climate regulator, dessertifying before mid century, but guess what we probably ain't stopping that nice little fuck you either. It's still on fire btw, folks.
www.cnn.com

Tens of thousands of fires are pushing the Amazon to a tipping point | CNN

The Amazon is speeding toward a tipping point, when large areas of the rainforest will no longer be able to produce enough rain to sustain itself, according to Carlos Nobre, one of Brazil's leading climate scientists and researcher at the University of Sao Paulo.


It's often been compared to WW2 what we need to do, worldwide, to avoid catastrophe. And by compare, I mean we need to make WW2 look like a regular Tuesday, and we need to keep doing that for decades.

All that said, I'm not a climate doomer, but a climate optimist so to speak. Doomer position is the end of almost all life in a century as we hit the accelerator on the already ongoing 6th extinction. I think we have a chance to avoid a 5C climate before 2200 and even considering all the baked in shit we're going to have to deal with that I briefly mentioned above.

So, the world is going to be utterly changed 1 way or another no matter what we do. And my position is there is still time to end up on the side where we can still be optimistic that future societies will provide for the many and not just the few no matter the obstacles in their path. Things are going to get rougher, and as we are now, we won't make it.

The most socialist variant of the Green New Deal in every country is the bare minimum we needed a decade ago, as is the massive redistribution of wealth from the more polluting rich countries to the rest of the world. Anything that isn't calling for at least those very bare minimum requirements to happen within 10 years isn't climate optimism, but utter fucking delusion. We don't have a shot at limiting even 5C by 2100 if we can't even do these things in the decade we already don't have.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Members of my family studied this stuff in the 90s. I was optimistic back then but that's when I thought grownups in power weren't fucking thick as shit.
 

Deleted member 46958

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
2,574
I'm sorry but...


This is the scenario of 4°C warming:
n6rfrivigeq2_xnzGmEX.jpg


The orange and dark grey areas are uninhabitable.
That's literally the entire global south and even more.


So this is the scenario of 4°C warming. We are currently on course to 4-7°C and there is no improvement in sight - none.


Let's look at what would need to happen for us to avoid that.
The IPCC constantly updates it 1.5°C and 2°C scenarios, giving years by which we need to have reduced our global emissions to zero to have a 50% or 66% chance to stay below 1.5°C/2°C warming.

They look like this:
wjr70uuj1hj5_ctOpg8A.jpg

In order to have a realistic chance to stay below 1.5°C global warming, we would need to reduce our global emissions to zero within the next 10-20 years.


We haven't even started to bend that curve. It doesn't even look like we are going to start anytime soon.
In fact, it looks like we will continue to raise our emissions for the foreseeable future.



I am sorry to tell you this, but back in 1980, the situation was grim.

Now the situation is such that we should actually start preparing for relocating billions of people and the necessary infrastructure from the global south to the north.
Because if billions of people start to migrate out of necessity, it will be the biggest humanitarian crisis ever by long shot and it will result in the industrial extermination of hundreds of millions of climate refugees. This is a global crisis that will last for many decades, probably more than a century.



This is not something a climate scientist would say publicly, but this is what the data points towards.

Better live my life then, and try to do my part to be greener. We did this to ourselves.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Title is a misnomer. Climate change is already here. The title should be whether we can prevent Catastrophic climate change to humanity. It already will be catastrophic to other living things.