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Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
Your take on my statement is that the game "sucks"?

Jesus christ and you wonder why I called you out lmao
You might not be saying it sucks outright, but you're essentially pointing out the gameplay hurdle I've been discussing. As far as mischaracterization, mine is no more worse than yours for the post I was responding to.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see it was an error on your part. My point was never that misinformation wasn't a problem, it is that there are other, much bigger problems causing the game to fail.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
That's not what he said, and it's extremely disingenuous of you to boil down his post to just that.

Also, you're fucking admitting it's a "weird-ass complicated game" as an excuse for the retention issues. So the game sucks, hence why retention numbers suck, essentially. Just be forthright about your thoughts on the matter. It's a niche game that goes out of it's way to repel players mechanically.

Artifact is complicated, yes. It's not particularly weird.

Saying "the game sucks" isn't going to help win your argument, it's just going to make people defensive.
 

Perturabo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
692
How is it game play wise compared to something like Gwent? Which is the only card game I've ever really put any time into
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
Artifact is complicated, yes. It's not particularly weird.

Saying "the game sucks" isn't going to help win your argument, it's just going to make people defensive.
I'm not saying the game sucks, I'm saying his post seems like a weirdly worded way of saying it sucks as a means to explain away the retention issues.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
The game is just unfun, I bought it and played a little bit didn't enjoy it at all and tried to get a refund and couldn't. I don't know if I will ever play it again.
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
The bolded is exactly the misinformation I was talking about. There's a draft mode you can play without paying a dime every single time. The one that costs tickets is for Prize Play.
That hasn't always been misinformation though. The free draft got added in a patch. For a long time it was correct. Can't expect everyone who is turned off by the game design to keep up to date on the patches that get added after much community outcry.
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
The bolded is exactly the misinformation I was talking about. There's a draft mode you can play without paying a dime every single time. The one that costs tickets is for Prize Play.

I knew there was Phantom Draft and Keeper Draft but there's also a hidden third draft mode?? you can see why this is confusing.
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,026
That hasn't always been misinformation though. The free draft got added in a patch. For a long time it was correct. Can't expect everyone who is turned off by the game design to keep up to date on the patches that get added after much community outcry.
Yes it has, the free draft was always there since launch. The free draft was even there in Beta. It has always been misinformation.
 

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
I'm not saying the game sucks, I'm saying his post seems like a weirdly worded way of saying it sucks as a means to explain away the retention issues.

The game doesn't suck, but it's absolutely had its marketing mismanaged. At its core, Artifact is complicated, difficult, and fairly different from other games on the market. Valve probably needed to be advertising it as "the card game for really hardcore card gamers who think doing math is fun!" or something like that to help get across its nature to potential buyers. Instead, I've always felt like they positioned it as another Hearthstone type of game, but it exists on the other end of the spectrum from Hearthstone's simplicity. Between that and advertising heavily to DotA 2 players (at least based on what people are saying in this thread), it sure seems like they've been targeting their marketing at people who would dislike it for the very things that make it enjoyable to someone like me. People who just want to dip their toes into card games, or who just want to windmill slam their big exciting cards aren't exactly primed to appreciate what Artifact is bringing to the table. (And to clarify, I'm not trying to say that other card games are shallow. Artifact is just really punishing to players who aren't putting in a lot of effort.)

Maybe there really isn't a big enough market of people who want their card games to be stressful and taxing, but it sure feels like Valve didn't really target that market in the first place. That would explain the rapid drop off.

That hasn't always been misinformation though. The free draft got added in a patch. For a long time it was correct. Can't expect everyone who is turned off by the game design to keep up to date on the patches that get added after much community outcry.

You're half right. Free drafting was available from day 1. It wasn't patched in. However, it wasn't going to be a thing until shortly before the game launched, when player outcry got Valve to change their minds about it.

I knew there was Phantom Draft and Keeper Draft but there's also a hidden third draft mode?? you can see why this is confusing.

It was never hidden. You have Casual Phantom Draft (no entry fee), Prize Phantom Draft (entry fee), and Keeper Draft (entry fee + you keep cards). I think they changed the names on the category tabs to make things a bit more clear in game, but it was always a case where you had the Standard tab containing non-entry fee events and the Prize tab containing the events with entry fees.
 

ShadowFlare

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
217
The bolded is exactly the misinformation I was talking about. There's a draft mode you can play without paying a dime every single time. The one that costs tickets is for Prize Play.

True, but keep in mind this was added shortly before release, and only due to a huge backlash from the fan base. I get the feeling Valve never intended to have a free draft mode, and only did it to appease the fans. If you read the explanation why they added it, it basically came down to they didn't realize people wanted a free phantom draft mode, which makes absolutely no sense. They probably didn't have time to communicate this properly which is one of the reasons why new players never bought the game. This explains the new player issue, but still doesn't really explain why >90% bounced off the game so quickly.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
That hasn't always been misinformation though. The free draft got added in a patch. For a long time it was correct. Can't expect everyone who is turned off by the game design to keep up to date on the patches that get added after much community outcry.


The mode has been there since the beta. As far as the public are aware, it's been available since day 1.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
You might not be saying it sucks outright, but you're essentially pointing out the gameplay hurdle I've been discussing. As far as mischaracterization, mine is no more worse than yours for the post I was responding to.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see it was an error on your part. My point was never that misinformation wasn't a problem, it is that there are other, much bigger problems causing the game to fail.
There are definitely bigger problems NOW, I can agree with that, but I think misinformation was among the biggest at launch. And I think it's foolish to act like, even if you disagree that it was the biggest, that it wasn't HUGELY impactful. A lot of people have done this! It's silly.

Anyway, Artifact is a great game. Not all great games are accessible or attractive to the masses. It doesn't suck. It doesn't even come close to sucking.
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
Yes it has, the free draft was always there since launch. The free draft was even there in Beta. It has always been misinformation.
You're half right. Free drafting was available from day 1. It wasn't patched in. However, it wasn't going to be a thing until shortly before the game launched, when player outcry got Valve to change their minds about it.
.
I'm confused. How was it available day 1 yet not a thing until player outcry made Valve change it? Were they planning on removing it?
 

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
I'm confused. How was it available day 1 yet not a thing until player outcry made Valve change it? Were they planning on removing it?

Prior to launch, Valve outlined the various types of modes (which didn't include a free drafting option). A bunch of people complained, then (about a week before launch I think), Valve stated that based on feedback, a no-fee version of draft would be added.
 

Rzarekta

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
1,289
User Warned: Inflammatory Drive-by
I'm sorry, but FUCK Valve. I don't usually celebrate failures, but anything Valve fails at is another reminder to me that they ignored one of my favorite franchises of all time after a huge cliff hanger. Nothing but silence on the matter. Fuck Valve.
 

Euler

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
Prior to launch, Valve outlined the various types of modes (which didn't include a free drafting option). A bunch of people complained, then (about a week before launch I think), Valve stated that based on feedback, a no-fee version of draft would be added.
I see, thanks. So it was a thing that was supposed to be in the beta but not in the released game, then Valve changed it. It's not weird how the misinformation appeared then.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
I don't think you can charge up front in a white noise genre where all the best competitors aren't gated by a transaction by default.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
This whole free draft/misinformation thing could've been easily avoided if the menu design of the game wasn't Smash-tier garbage. Launching the game takes you to a useless splash screen, then the "Play Artifact" button just defaults you to playing against bots. People aren't gonna know what the difference between "Standard" and "Prize" play are right off the bat.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,261
Game is super fun but I have no reason to keep playing it I guess. The ticket drafts are enjoyable but I just don't care to buy anymore tickets.

Also game needs more cards at this point. Everything is so predictable already.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Literally nobody wanted this. Valve has to wake up from their self delusion of grandeur.
 

Acinixys

Banned
Nov 15, 2017
913
Has
F2P before completely shutting down, maybe?


Has Valve ever abandoned a game that was already out in the wild?

Im sure they will try for another year to get the game to work by charging for everything , and then theyll have a massive patch/V2.0 re-release making the game free to play.
 

itchi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,287
It was never hidden. You have Casual Phantom Draft (no entry fee), Prize Phantom Draft (entry fee), and Keeper Draft (entry fee + you keep cards). I think they changed the names on the category tabs to make things a bit more clear in game, but it was always a case where you had the Standard tab containing non-entry fee events and the Prize tab containing the events with entry fees.

I never bought the game though just read the faq after googling Artifact draft mode. It seems to list all the game modes and doesn't even mention there is a free phantom draft.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
I wonder how Gwent is doing in comparison. We don't really have good stats to gauge that game's success, do we?
 

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
It just represents how out of touch Valve has become, since they don't need to make money with new projects anymore.

Nobody asked for this, everyone expected a completely new IP, the reveal was just terrible, then they tried to hype it as the new Magic The Gathering or the new Pokémon card game but it isn't.

In my opinion if you want to make a successful card game, free to play and a mobile version are the first two essential requirements, Valve should have looked more at games like Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Links or Hearthstone.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,218
I don't see a compelling reason to try and play this game when I have hearthstone and mtg:a. Mtg:a in particular has been a real good time.
 

AvernOffset

Member
May 6, 2018
546
I never bought the game though just read the faq after googling Artifact draft mode. It seems to list all the game modes and doesn't even mention there is a free phantom draft.

Bahahaha, this is an amazing screwup! Despite that post being tagged as Updated, it isn't. Very shortly before launch they added a free draft mode. God, Valve just can't seem to do anything right with their communication around this game. I think I may have just passed into the Acceptance phase of my grieving for Artifact, because I'm finding this hilarious instead of depressing.

Literally nobody wanted this. Valve has to wake up from their self delusion of grandeur.
Nobody asked for this,

Man, why do you have to do me like this? I wanted Artifact! There are dozens of us! Dozens!
 

HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,026
I'm not debating the feature exists it obviously does but you can't exactly blame miss information when Valve is spreading their own.
I mean yeah it's misinformation spreading around, but yes I absolutely blame Valve's messaging. It doesn't change the fact that it's still misinformation.

I still believe most of Artifact's problems come from it's PR, and Valve is very responsible for that.
 

LatscherGnu

Member
Apr 23, 2018
197
I play Artifact almost daily and watch streams. It's so good (to me) that i don't think i'll go back to a different card game any time soon, probably just take a break from the genre for a couple years when artifact is done. And i fear it might be because the list in my mind of things that would all(!) need to happen to save it... (please surprise me valve ;) )

- A big expansion, fast, that's just amazing and is so to a lot more people
--> no idea if this is possible and if valve can pull it off

- A proper "main game mode" that works completely in client, you just click and it starts a game and feels rewarding to keep playing even if you aren't a super hardcore artifact player
--> right now i'd argue the only way to play artifact that is actually rewarding long term is tournaments and they're a hassle to keep track of outside the game and require a HUGE time investment (and who knows how long the "bigger" 3rd party tournaments with prizes will stick around for a dying game)

- Community reception: whatever that game mode above is, it needs to be f2p without being hard locked out of anything else popular just to shut down the negativity as much as possible, maybe they'd have a chance for it to go down from toxic to manageable that way
--> would require a big rework

- Communication: for any of that to matter, when it's done, i think this time Valve would really have to commit to an advertising campaign outside of steam with good messaging and the game needs a transparent road map forward like other companies have to do, the "nobody knows what's coming but it's valve so it'll be good" isn't doing it anymore
--> when was the last time valve has actually done this? sounds opposite to the way valve likes to operate (and works internally)
 

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 21, 2017
6,639
"Dota-themed digital CCG designed by Richard Garfield" sounded fucking incredible to me, personally. What they delivered is just not that great, though.

The first reveal was just the logo and "Dota card game" and the reaction most people had is perfectly described on that video.

Everyone wanted something new from Valve (Half life 3 believers are delusionals) after years of nothing, they hinted VR games to push their Steam VR and so far we saw nothing from that side from them, to me that should have been the absolute priority, since HTC is dying and that market is also slowing down significantly.

So already announcing this mean Valve refused to listen their fans, plus that weird selling strategy (no F2P, no mobile version at launch) means Valve didn't exactly what's the target audience for this kind of games nowadays, the best device for a game like Artifact should be your smartphone/tablet.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,414
I mean yeah it's misinformation spreading around, but yes I absolutely blame Valve's messaging. It doesn't change the fact that it's still misinformation.

I still believe most of Artifact's problems come from it's PR, and Valve is very responsible for that.

Agreed, but on the misinformation front it really doesn't help that a very loud segment of the complaints are basically shitposters who never wanted this game to succeed, because it's not a "real game", and look at how Valve has fallen, etc. People are certainly entitled to not care for this game, but people are putting too much stock in the opinions of people who don't really matter.

Valve can work on more than one thing at a time and the people they hired to make a card game were never going to make a new Half Life, Team Fortress, Portal, etc.

I do respect the opinions of people who have played the game a lot and are weighing in on their thoughts, positive and negative. I think we can all agree that the game is due for a major expansion to spice it up. People are more or less done with the basic set.
 

VPplaya

Member
Nov 20, 2018
1,964
Yeah Valve is just so out of touch it is hard to feel bad about what they're going through. They have been riding on Steam and DOTA 2 for years with little to no new projects being announced and finally when they do announce something it is an overly-complicated niche card game. Now that they have serious competition with the Epic Games store they are going to have to step it up otherwise they might be on their way out.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
There are definitely bigger problems NOW, I can agree with that, but I think misinformation was among the biggest at launch. And I think it's foolish to act like, even if you disagree that it was the biggest, that it wasn't HUGELY impactful. A lot of people have done this! It's silly.

Anyway, Artifact is a great game. Not all great games are accessible or attractive to the masses. It doesn't suck. It doesn't even come close to sucking.
I think whatever impact it has had is negligible compared to the two issues I've articulated here numerous times: The game is dying because of a complexity barrier that makes it difficult to get into and also difficult to watch.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I think whatever impact it has had us negligible compared to the two issues I've articulated here numerous times: The game is dying because of a complexity barrier that makes it difficult to get into and also difficult to watch.
I think some of the viewing problem is built into the game's nature, but not having an actual spectator mode in the client is a baffling decision to me. It was in Dota 2 since the beta days and I think that letting people explore the board state at their own pace when spectating friends or streamers would have gone a long way to making the game more friendly to newcomers. Well, that and a better tutorial.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,414
I think whatever impact it has had us negligible compared to the two issues I've articulated here numerous times: The game is dying because of a complexity barrier that makes it difficult to get into and also difficult to watch.

Neither of those things really matter if they put it in front of the audience that would be interested in this game. As far as I can tell, they haven't done that.

There are a ton of card and tabletop games that are of similar complexity (or higher) that do well. They have a fanbase, they pull in increasing amounts of money every year for the past couple of years now. The games are not free to play, in fact they can be quite expensive - but people pay it. That's a distinction that a lot of people on this side of gaming don't seem to understand. There is more than one way to sell a card game.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
Neither of those things really matter if they put it in front of the audience that would be interested in this game. As far as I can tell, they haven't done that.

There are a ton of card and tabletop games that are of similar complexity (or higher) that do well. They have a fanbase, they pull in increasing amounts of money every year for the past couple of years now. The games are not free to play, in fact they can be quite expensive - but people pay it. That's a distinction that a lot of people on this side of gaming don't seem to understand. There is more than one way to sell a card game.
Name a TCG that is of similar or higher complexity. The main ones are Magic, Pokemon, YGO, and Hearthstone, and they're all of much lower base complexity.
 

Ketch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,285
the "nobody knows what's coming but it's valve so it'll be good" isn't doing it anymore
--> when was the last time valve has actually done this? sounds opposite to the way valve likes to operate (and works internally)

This is the part that's most amazing to me. They lost all of their customer good will with this one game.

Years of making hot bangers followed by a long break and then... Valve's making a new game. What? Valves making a new game?! Holy shit everybody, VALVE'S MAKING A NEW GAME! Morpheus is fighting Neo!

And then the big reveal at TI which was super hyped up and met with massive disappointment, followed by the actual launch which was pretty hype leading up to release and then met massive disappointment again. And now the audience has completely checked out.

It's the one-two punch of popping a kids balloon animal and then throwing his birthday cake onto the floor. The kids stomps out of the room crying and Valve's just dead silent, stone cold eyes of an uncaring robot.

For how smart they portray themselves as, this was a massive miscalculation.
 
Feb 19, 2018
1,648
We wanted half-life 3,
we wanted portal 3,
we wanted left 4 dead 3,
we wanted team fortress 3

not that ... thing. If Valve could stop chasing after Blizzard or Epic and start doing Valve stuff again, that would be great.
So much this. But it's too obvious that the next Valve game is going to be a DOTA 2 based battle royale game in two or three years, mark my words.
 
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Code Artisan

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
805
Right now, Artifact has more viewers on Twitch than players

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Whompa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
Pretty disappointing to see Valve, one of the leading software developers of last gen, spend 4+ years on a dead on arrival card game
 

ChrisR

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,794
I like the game, but the games drag on too long. Haven't fired it up since the game clock tweak tho
 

Almeister

Member
Oct 25, 2017
962
I like the game, but the games drag on too long. Haven't fired it up since the game clock tweak tho

It does make a big difference, games are a lot snappier. It definitely forces me to be less blasé about taking my time with a turn and I can't get away with distractedly doing something else.
 

DevilPuncher

Aggressively Mediocre
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,684
It sucks because I honestly really like it.

I also don't think that the business model is that bad? Especially now considering that card prices have dropped significantly as the playerbase has gone down. Granted, now that you only get 5 packs in your inititial buy in it's a worse deal than it used to be.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Name a TCG that is of similar or higher complexity. The main ones are Magic, Pokemon, YGO, and Hearthstone, and they're all of much lower base complexity.

Legend of the Five RIngs. Android Netrunner.
The problem is the marketing. Valve made this seem like a Hearthstone and MTG competitor, while in actuality the game would never hit big with those groups.
This game is for folks who loved Android Netrunner, the Star Wars LCG and games of that ilk. Sadly most of these gamers are playing physical and didnt know about Artifact. If valve had done proper marketing and not put their marketing towards streamers they could have reach an audience that would love this game and gladly buy it.