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PopsMaellard

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,359
Curious to see how Valve reacts to this tanking. Want to see them on the attack.

Ehhh. This feels like the sort of thing that would really reinforce for them that there's no point in making games when their services are dramatically more profitable for much less effort and cost. Artifact is arguably a good game, and it being unsuccessful is a bad look.
 

PopQuiz

Member
Dec 11, 2017
4,258
I always felt like Garfield kind of phoned it in once I saw the core gameplay. Maybe he was too focused on Keyforge, but Artifact always felt a little uninspired compared to much of his other work.

I don't blame him for the failure. I guess I blame Valve for not differentiating this game enough from a crowded field.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
The lack of interesting cards is probably the worst thing for me personally. And on top of that they gave pros months of early access to make the meta pretty stale well before release. At least a new set is all that's needed to fix that, but the starting set was a complete non-starter for deck builder types.

I know deck builders aren't exactly the most popular of player types of computer CCGs, but it is yet another category in the large list of player types that this game did a poor job of attracting and holding.
What's really bizarre to me is putting Aganhim's Sanctum and Incarnation of Selemne in the core set. Out of all the interesting synergistic effects the designers could have chosen, they went with mana cheating in the card drawing color.

They've basically planted a time bomb that is guaranteed to explode when the card pool gets bigger in the very first set of the game. And yet I'm not sure it will even matter for the game's future.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
What's really bizarre to me is putting Aganhim's Sanctum and Incarnation of Selemne in the core set. Out of all the interesting synergistic effects the designers could have chosen, they went with mana cheating in the card drawing color.

They've basically planted a time bomb that is guaranteed to explode when the card pool gets bigger in the very first set of the game.
I know. I don't want to criticize maybe the only interesting card in the entire starting set, but it's a pretty risky card to start off with. Did they have no other interesting ideas or what?
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
I know. I don't want to criticize maybe the only interesting card in the entire starting set, but it's a pretty risky card to start off with. Did they have no other interesting ideas or what?
For interesting ideas they could use for the second set, I think it'd be nice if they emphasized cards that are based on and affect position (both within and between lanes) more. It's strange that in a game defined by having 3 lanes, there aren't many cards that allow you to mess with that aspect, and two of the most important are shop items.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,997
I know that it has a large player base, but is being DOTA2-themed really a selling point?
Trying to sell a $20 game with predatory microtransactions to people playing a free game doesn't seem like the best idea, and as some with no interest in DOTA2 it made me not want to play Artifact.

I don't think the Valve hate is warranted though. Of course I'd like to see a new Half-Life, Left 4 Dead, Portal, or new first-person game from them. I'm interested in Valley of the Gods In the Valley of Gods but that's a Campo Santo game, not a Valve game.
Some people act like Valve doing anything else is a personal affront and think that anything negative which happens is somehow a positive step in the direction of forcing them to make the game that they want.
Out of all the complaints "This game that is a CCG monetizes like a CCG, how dare they" is the worst. Like complaining that a Racing game makes you drive.
Buying packs of random cards to play certain deck-building games has always been bullshit, and it's even worse when it's a digital game.
There should be a fixed pool of cards and expansions rather than card packs and trading. I'd much rather play a game which avoids all of that.
 
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PS9

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,066
I've been playing Hearthstone since launch which is perfect on mobile, and I just don't see how they're porting Artifact to mobile this year. I barely understand Artifact on PC, trying to get all that down to a mobile UI just seems impossible.

Also if the mobile version isn't free to play then that's another heavy miss.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,138
New York
Soon it'll be an artifact in gaming history.
Valve should reboot this game and rename it "Relic".

skkT2nb.png
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Die a hero or live long enough to become a rich as fuck near platform holder with a hard on for new monetisation strategies.

I jest, kinda.
 

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,415
I know that it has a large player base, but is being DOTA2-themed really a selling point?
Trying to sell a $20 game with predatory microtransactions to people playing a free game doesn't seem like the best idea, and as some with no interest in DOTA2 it made me not want to play Artifact.
This was the rub for me as well. Would I have tried Artifact if it was its own completely new property and not branded as a Dota offshoot? Maybe! I haven't been burned out on digital card games, so I'm receptive to playing a new one. I simply don't like Dota, and any association to it already brings on a disinterest, and the way the game tries to emulate the lanes and tower defense/offense of Dota was already a turnoff. It makes sense why they would go with it though, given its playerbase among Valve's properties.
 

Vilam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,053
This game has been disappointing people since the moment it was announced. Their hubris finally caught up with them. I hope this is a rude awakening for Valve, and leads to them course correcting back to the players that they've abandoned.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,467
I know that it has a large player base, but is being DOTA2-themed really a selling point?
Trying to sell a $20 game with predatory microtransactions to people playing a free game doesn't seem like the best idea, and as some with no interest in DOTA2 it made me not want to play Artifact.

I don't think the Valve hate is warranted though. Of course I'd like to see a new Half-Life, Left 4 Dead, Portal, or new first-person game from them. I'm interested in Valley of the Gods but that's a Campo Santo game, not a Valve game.
Some people act like Valve doing anything else is a personal affront and think that anything negative which happens is somehow a positive step in the direction of forcing them to make the game that they want.

Buying packs of random cards to play certain deck-building games has always been bullshit, and it's even worse when it's a digital game.
There should be a fixed pool of cards and expansions rather than card packs and trading. I'd much rather play a game which avoids all of that.
They are large enough and make enough money that they could develop all of them at once if they really wanted to.... Or let a developer use the IP to get it done... But they obviously don't care about the opinion of the core valve fanbase because now we have a card game nobody wants
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
If what you said is true, then where the fuck e-sport circuit sponsored by valve that they promised?

I defend the game a LOT, I think I'm counted as the "hardcore" audience or whatever you called but I'm run out of patience after this recent silence that ignoring people that still hopeful of the future of the game especially on competitive side.

I think Valve already thinking about burying this game

I think they are giving up on it, because they had some silly idea that this game would steal the hearthstone audience, despite beeing the despite opposite of hearthstone.

Also I dont use the word hardcore, I simply stated it is not for casual card gamers. People who prefer fast luck driven games with some fun combos are going to bounce of artifact hard, because its a game that rewards strategic play and long term planning.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,084
Artifact is a luck driven game though? It has a layer of randomisation to it that Magic doesn't have that absolutely hinders it's aim of being a competence esport.

(For some reason garfield has added randomisation factors like this to many games he's developed over the last couple of decades).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,798
I realize I'm in the minority here, but one of the things that kept me going in Hearthstone after I got sick of chasing meta was the SP / expansion stuff. It was fun little challenges, with rewards and, I guess, kinda lore-building? Anyway, I'd enjoy that.

Artifact is a neat game. It's too bad Valve misread the scene and it's not doing well. Hopefully Valve re-releases it as a F2P game and retools the game to make it easy and more fun; I'd rather have a game out there that bends back on some of its earlier promise but has a playerbase than one that staunchly defends everything it does but fails to keep people interested.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,558
Artifact is a luck driven game though? It has a layer of randomisation to it that Magic doesn't have that absolutely hinders it's aim of being a competence esport.

(For some reason garfield has added randomisation factors like this to many games he's developed over the last couple of decades).
The absolute high tier player in Artifact have around 70% winrate. Thats incredible number for card game. I believe fundamental in Magic wont allow the highest tier of player achieve that kind of winrate.
 

Lucifonz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,132
United Kingdom
Oh hey, Kotaku pretty much rewrote my story.

It'll be interesting to see if Valve have some significant plans in the works to try turn things around or if they put the game on basic support mode at this point.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,843
Netherlands
I'm not really into GaaS games. How many are there with integrated marketplaces? I know Diablo 3 and Artifact, and both bomba'd out the gates, which seems to indicate players outright reject this model. I guess it works in some MMOs like Star Citizen?
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Artifact is a luck driven game though? It has a layer of randomisation to it that Magic doesn't have that absolutely hinders it's aim of being a competence esport.

(For some reason garfield has added randomisation factors like this to many games he's developed over the last couple of decades).

It really is not. Magic is much more luck driven. Heck even the ressource system in magic is luck based.
 

Deleted member 16849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,167
These are my thoughts on what needs to be addressed
  • If it's not going to be F2P then they will need to drop the price of the game
  • Lower the price of booster packs since the expected value of a pack is less than what Valve is charging for or include at least 2 guaranteed Rares per pack. I do realise this will tank the card prices further but the game needs to be cheaper once set 2 comes along.
  • Expert mode needs to give you something because if you lose all your matches its a waste of money if you are no good at the game and this turns away players
  • RNG needs to be gone. It may be a feature in Hearthstone but it has no place in other games
  • The Pay for everything business model needs to change while earning booster packs, entering events to the cost of the game itself (they have slightly improved this with the Seasonal rewards) costs money, all this is free in other games
  • There is no trading (You can purchase individual cards from the Steam marketplace, but the best cards cost far too much even though they have tanked)
  • Deck builder is poor
  • No profile, no stat tracking
  • No card backs or cosmetics to unlock
  • No foils or premium versions of cards
  • Non-existent single player content unless you like playing Bots over and over again
  • Games are far too long.
Even if half this list can be addressed it will go a long way to build up the community. The biggest items on the list is A) Business model and B) Game length. You look at a free to play game like Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Links and they have managed to condense games to an average of 2 minutes. People don't have time to piss fart around for an average for 15-20 minutes a match.

And this is why you don't make a digital CCG Cost money to play.

If you do then i expect a meaty single player campaign. I wish the game at least had a campaign like Card City Nights or Pokemon TCG (Gameboy), the former of which is a $5 dollar game and is amazing. Even Elder Scrolls CCG has a campaign and they give you a campaign or two for free while been F2P.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
Artifact is a luck driven game though? It has a layer of randomisation to it that Magic doesn't have that absolutely hinders it's aim of being a competence esport.

(For some reason garfield has added randomisation factors like this to many games he's developed over the last couple of decades).
It's because games need variance to remain interesting. Random elements insure that the outcome at most points is not entirely deterministic.

Card games inherently have a significant random element because of the mechanic of drawing different cards from a shuffled deck. Artifact, however, has an extreme source of consistency present from turn 1: The heroes. The random creeps, starting positions, lack of mulligan, etc are there to compensate for this, as well as to compensate for drawing 2 cards instead of 1.

Speaking of drawing 2 cards instead of 1, this is one of my least favorite elements of Artifact when combined with the lack of mulligan. Your first few turns are extremely swingy and often basically up to a coin flip (thanks Bounty Hunter). The last few turns can feel like a dull grind against the board itself because the random creeps become a higher source of variance than the cards you and your opponent drew.
 
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Deleted member 7948

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,285
Welp, I'm not surprised. Dota players want to play Dota, not some card game.

Maybe they'll learn the lesson and hurry up developing Dota 3. It's been almost 8 years since Dota 2 first appeared to the masses.
 

MotionBlue

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
738
Between this and Battlefront 2, maybe Industry execs will realize everyone hates abusive P2W bullshit.
 

lazerfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,326
Switzerland
All these hot takes just show how bad the marketing and communication has been from Valve during the release of Artifact. People still think it's somehow P2W but on the other hand the same people are totally fine with Blizzard nickel and diming in Hearthstone because it's F2P.

The real problem with Artifact is, that there's no sort of carrot on the stick progression. It's just a vital part for player retention especially for a GaaS.
I think Valve's best bet to bring people back is to address this with a big F2P update alongside with its first expansion. They've already implemented a timer update making the games shorter so Valve is clearly listening to feedback.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
All these hot takes just show how bad the marketing and communication has been from Valve during the release of Artifact. People still think it's somehow P2W but on the other hand the same people are totally fine with Blizzard nickel and diming in Hearthstone because it's F2P.

The real problem with Artifact is, that there's no sort of carrot on the stick progression. It's just a vital part for player retention especially for a GaaS.
I think Valve's best bet to bring people back is to address this with a big F2P update alongside with its first expansion. They've already implemented a timer update making the games shorter so Valve is clearly listening to feedback.

I still think the depth and complexity of the gameplay will keep it from ever beeing a main stream hit. That beeing said if they chose to go with the dota model they could probably capture a bigger audience.
Have the cards be free and then fund the game through cosmetics.
 

MotionBlue

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
738
Expert Constructed is the most competitive mode, and unless something changed the last 3 weeks(which is possible as I unistalled in late dec) is 100% p2w.

All these hot takes just show how bad the marketing and communication has been from Valve during the release of Artifact. People still think it's somehow P2W but on the other hand the same people are totally fine with Blizzard nickel and diming in Hearthstone because it's F2P.

The real problem with Artifact is, that there's no sort of carrot on the stick progression. It's just a vital part for player retention especially for a GaaS.
I think Valve's best bet to bring people back is to address this with a big F2P update alongside with its first expansion. They've already implemented a timer update making the games shorter so Valve is clearly listening to feedback.
Quality gaslighting. Hearthstone being a p2w crapshoot isn't a justification for Artifact to be one. Artifact is inexcusably abusive with its microtransations. Requiring event tickets to play the most competitive mode was beyond stupid. The game is designed to eat your money and does a horrible job hiding it.
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
Artifact feels so slow and cumbersome and worse of all the games are too long. I have no idea how they expect people to play those long games on mobile.

MtGA on the other hand is the complete opposite and they seem to shower you with gold. But the speed is most important, even down to the animations. It makes even Hearthstone feels like molasses.
 

DiscoShark

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
479
I love Artifact in its current form, genuinely one of the more interesting card games I've played in the last few years. I think the market is an extremely novel way of incentivizing people like me, who usually wouldn't invest anything into a traditional F2P marketplace, to open my wallet and pick out the specific cards I want to improve the decks I want to play. It's a way to subvert what would be a marketplace dominated entirely by luck driven draws and gives me more choice as a consumer to how I want to invest monetarily into the game. Card packs do nothing for me, but allowing me to pay anything from .05 cents to 5 dollars for a specific card I need to round things off? I'll do that in a heartbeat.

Lowering the barrier of entry by removing the up front cost would be the first step I would take here, and I think they have a model right now where they could justify it. The $20 I paid got me 10 packs, a number of tickets, and a base set of cards to mess around with. A free to play entry could give you access to all of the above minus the packs. Easy, and you don't hurt the side of the player base that went in early.

Long term they still need to work out kinks with progression, I want to see a real ranking and leaderboard system with unlocks that incentivize people to participate in each new "season" of content - though I'm sure something along those lines is in the works.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
Expert Constructed is the most competitive mode, and unless something changed the last 3 weeks(which is possible as I unistalled in late dec) is 100% p2w.


Quality gaslighting. Hearthstone being a p2w crapshoot isn't a justification for Artifact to be one. Artifact is inexcusably abusive with its microtransations. Requiring event tickets to play the most competitive mode was beyond stupid. The game is designed to eat your money and does a horrible job hiding it.

Eh there is nothing p2w about the expert constructed? Its pay2compete just like any other ccg. Dont spread bullshit just because you dont understand the basic concept of a ccg/tcg...
 

TrashFuego

Member
Nov 21, 2017
73
I love the game. I'm hoping that the right the ship and keep it going. I feel like people really wanted it to fail and that's a shame. But whatever to each their own.
 

lazerfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,326
Switzerland
I still think the depth and complexity of the gameplay will keep it from ever beeing a main stream hit. That beeing said if they chose to go with the dota model they could probably capture a bigger audience.
Have the cards be free and then fund the game through cosmetics.
I can't really see Valve adopting the Dota model to Artifact. That would just throw their whole design philosophy of it being like a phyiscal CCG out of the window.
But if they actually decide to rework the whole economy it would at least explain the radio silence from Valve.

Requiring event tickets to play the most competitive mode was beyond stupid. The game is designed to eat your money and does a horrible job hiding it.
I do actually like the event tickets system. Having some sort of stakes make the games more exciting to me but I understand that it's not for everyone. Maybe I'm just the gambler type because Poker without stakes bores me to death. But as soon everyone is throwing just a dollar into the pot it suddenly makes me really excited to play. That's also why I liked Arena in Hearthstone.
 

MrSaxon

Member
Jan 29, 2018
24
London
Next up: Valve announces a Battle Royale game just as the genre begins to decline, asks all players to pay real money for the weapons they find in-game, and is shocked when most of the playerbase leaves and never comes back.
 

Namdrater

Member
Oct 27, 2017
90
Berlin / Cape Town
I play the game a bit and I'm no hardcore card game player. As much as I enjoy the core gameplay, I guess tons of other people don't.

Does anyone really believe that making this game F2P at release would not have had other BAD consequences? I'm so glad I don't have to grind for rubbish and can buy whatever cards I want. People have an expectation that a card game should be free and require you to grind for your entire collection or gamble with packs. Sounds terrible to me, but it's obviously part of the reason for how the game's looking right now.

I also think the amount of misinformation and F2P expectations also hurt the game. This is Valve's own fault because they barely do any marketing, let the misinformation spread early and barely involved the community. You can play drafts for free if you aren't keen on buying a collection for constructed.

At this point, I feel as though the only way to get people to change their minds about trying/playing the game is making it F2P with grinding. Great.

I don't believe for a second that Valve is going to abandon this game anytime soon, but they might end support sooner than anticipated if they can't get the player numbers up after significant efforts.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Between this and Battlefront 2, maybe Industry execs will realize everyone hates abusive P2W bullshit.
Quality gaslighting. Hearthstone being a p2w crapshoot isn't a justification for Artifact to be one. Artifact is inexcusably abusive with its microtransations. Requiring event tickets to play the most competitive mode was beyond stupid. The game is designed to eat your money and does a horrible job hiding it.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about, but I'll give you one thing: it was stupid for Valve to call ticked play the 'competitive' mode. It isn't. They changed the name of it to 'Prize Play' recently to better reflect what it is. There's no difference between Standard and Prize play except using the ticket to add boosters as prizes. You can play as much constructed and draft as you want, earn competitive ranks and account levels and all without paying for anything.

Artifact is a luck driven game though? It has a layer of randomisation to it that Magic doesn't have that absolutely hinders it's aim of being a competence esport.

(For some reason garfield has added randomisation factors like this to many games he's developed over the last couple of decades).
Magic is worse for randomization than Artifact. Artifact has more random elements but they have much less impact than Magic's one card per turn and land. Mana screw is why I can't play Magic seriously.

Speaking of drawing 2 cards instead of 1, this is one of my least favorite elements of Artifact when combined with the lack of mulligan. Your first few turns are extremely swingy and often basically up to a coin flip (thanks Bounty Hunter). The last few turns can feel like a dull grind against the board itself because the random creeps become a higher source of variance than the cards you and your opponent drew.
Your views on this game are so bizarre. Draw two makes the game a hell of a lot more consistent. It's a good thing. You might not have anything on turn one, but turn one deaths are largely not game deciding unless they get a lot of them with gold acceleration. And if you don't have anything to play on turn 4, your deck building is bad.

Original VS System had draw two and that was one of the best card games ever. Hell, it was too consistent. You could basically never luck out a win.
 
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Deleted member 50374

alt account
Banned
Dec 4, 2018
2,482
I kinda find the defense of this game a bit baffling. The game bombed with casual users so as much as there are positives, there is a huge elephant in the room: people just didn't like it; sugar coat it as much as possible, it still didn't click for many. Many just don't want to handle that much stuff in a card game, many prefer the simpler mechanics of Heartstone on public transportation, they don't actually want to invest much or at all - the fact that draft is free and a complete set is cheap compared to HS makes no sense to the casual player. If I'm not having fun and I don't actually want to buy in, who cares?!

Then once you go to the dedicated userbase, it looks like there is simply too little of it, and a market relies on having a big demand and supply, dooming this even more.

You can only go so far to blame people, but when 97.5% of the players dropped off, it means 97.5% just can't bother playing or they're not having fun.
 
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