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Deleted member 3294

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Oct 25, 2017
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I get being upset with Atlus over their bad track record of handling issues, and from what i read in this thread and forum there is plenty to nail Atlus in Persona or their other games, and there is also problematic stuff in Smash outside the Persona stuff.

But why does it have to devolve into assuming every single instance they could potentially do something wrong, they have to have done it ?

I personally have not played Persona 5, and i dont play Smash with sound, nor am i a native english speaker, so i wouldn't feel qualified to say what was being said either way, but i just dont get why, in a lack of actual evidence for or against it, you would assume they used the offensive word rather than you having misheard it.
Because at a certain point, after someone keeps putting bigoted stuff in their work, they don't really deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. Even if people are wrong, they wouldn't be wrong to assume it looking at their past history.

At least personally I hear the word when listening to it. I could see it being different, but regardless I don't find it hard to see how people could think that slur is being said.

Maybe it shouldn't be removed because it's kinda racist and shitty to make an accented singer re-record something because native speakers, who have since been corrected, misheard something.
I don't know about that. I'm not a native English speaker, and that's pretty clear when I speak English, and if I put something out there in which I accidentally say something that sounds like an offensive word and didn't intend to say that I sure as fuck would change it.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
I think what they did was terrible but I dont see the point in deleting the article. In fact, I don't think any true journalism outlet should ever delete articles. Their shame should be up there for the world to see, who care if they get some clicks? I sure won't go back to their site ever again after reading the article and the subsequent apology.
You say who cares, but I very much care about Kotaku getting any clicks whatsoever from this.

They shouldn't be allowed to profit from articles where they hurl unfounded accusations of bigotry towards non-native English speakers based on their own mishearing. They shouldn't be profiting of clicks to any apologies either, if they are.

If they want to desperately keep the article, then remove the ads at least. Crappy, disingenuous YouTuber apologies at least usually understand that.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
They're hardly going to be talking about retarded timing, as in an engine. In the same way calling somebody a fag is never because you were calling them a cigarette.

Like, kotaku obviously got this way wrong, so it's irellevant, thankfully.

As others have pointed out, the word "retard" (the verb) also has meaning in musical context. I was just talking about mechanics as one particular example.

My broader point is that this word has other meanings than just the slur and they are used relatively frequently when compared to other slurs. The context around the word in this case is just as important as the actual word used, if not more so.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Because at a certain point, after someone keeps putting bigoted stuff in their work, they don't really deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. Even if people are wrong, they wouldn't be wrong to assume it looking at their past history.

At least personally I hear the word when listening to it. I could see it being different, but regardless I don't find it hard to see how people could think that slur is being said.


I don't know about that. I'm not a native English speaker, and that's pretty clear when I speak English, and if I put something out there in which I accidentally say something that sounds like an offensive word and didn't intend to say that I sure as fuck would change it.
Why blame the company for something the singer(allegedly) did?

There's not trusting the company and then there's looking for/making up reasons to be upset with them.
 

KRBM

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
684
real telling how breath of the wild can have a trans panic scene that hardly ever gets brought up here and the game is hailed universally as a masterpiece but it's almost impossible to have a conversation about p5 that doesn't get derailed
Not to derail the thread but where in BotW is this scene containing, as per Wikipedia, "assault, manslaughter, or murder of a transgender individual, with whom the assailant(s) engaged in sexual relations unaware that the victim is transgender until seeing them naked"?
 

Mark H

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,679
Big part of the problem is that the original article was the literal example of "looking for something to be offended by" and will now be used to discredit any genuine article LKD and Kotaku may publish in future.
Very unprofessional mistake and really stupid lapse in judgement from them.
 

Deleted member 925

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,711
As others have said before, there is plenty to criticize Atlus for in regards to their trans and gay characters in their games. This instance is a journalist jumping the gun trying to get her gotcha or you've been jammed moment. A bit of diet racisms is there as well. It's pretty pathetic on her account and she does deserve the L, but not where it crosses the line.

Still, stop giving Kotaku the time of day.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,893
You say who cares, but I very much care about Kotaku getting any clicks whatsoever from this.

They shouldn't be allowed to profit from articles where they hurl unfounded accusations of bigotry towards non-native English speakers based on their own mishearing. They shouldn't be profiting of clicks to any apologies either, if they are.

If they want to desperately keep the article, then remove the ads at least. Crappy, disingenuous YouTuber apologies at least usually understand that.
I don't disagree with your argument but it seems short sighted to me. I think everyone should see the shit article with the shit apology (I do see your point about disabling ads). Once this dies down anyone could come back to the site view the shitty post and decide they don't want to go there anymore. If it were deleted then uninformed peope can get on the site and becomes fans of a place that does this sort of thing. I dunno man, I see your point still.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
This is an exceedingly common Nintendo response. They give the barest of details and usually do not like engaging in these things to say more than they have to. To be honest I'm shocked they even bothered to say this, usually they would just let it pass by. They kind of did Kotaku UK a favor by commenting at all and letting the book be closed on it.

People went a bit mental at Nintendo a few years back over this, to which Nintendo eventually went into more detail

Nintendo has categorically denied that the jokes were about Quinn.

"As many have observed," the company said in a statement, "when viewed in its entirety the Nintendo Treehouse: Live segment for Paper Mario: Color Splashfrom E3 includes two jokes separated by commentary and gameplay that have no relation to each other. One joke has to do with Watergate, while the other is a nod to the Fungi Fun Guys from Mario Party 8. It was brought to our attention today that these two jokes have been spliced together and misconstrued as a crude reference to an online hate campaign."

https://kotaku.com/after-outcry-nintendo-says-paper-mario-color-splash-d-1782492966

And I guess misconstruing song lyrics without doing fact checking is quite similar to the above. Don't fill in the blanks as a journalist, go and ask for something to be explained as most of the time something will have a reasonable explanation.
 

Deleted member 925

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Oct 25, 2017
3,711
Not to derail the thread but where in BotW is this scene containing, as per Wikipedia, "assault, manslaughter, or murder of a transgender individual, with whom the assailant(s) engaged in sexual relations unaware that the victim is transgender until seeing them naked"?

You know, there were some really good positives in the Gerudo section of BOTW. I loved that you had a character who (I believe) is trans, living in Gerudo Town but still has her full beard. And when Link has cross-dressed and is accepted, doing various quests in town he is told how accepted he is even though he appears more masculine and it is never questioned that he is not the assumed female gender, even if he lacks breasts. I felt like there were a lot of positives in that whole section and I applaud Nintendo for it.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Indirectly. Apologize for the effect, not the cause. I suppose I should have been a bit more explicit about that.

https://www.google.com/search?q="sorry+to+all+who+were+offended"

But why would Atlus apologize for the offence caused due to Kotaku? That makes no sense whatsoever. The only role Atlus has in this is fact-checking, then if it's not saying a slur, stating that. An apology would only be suitable if they had used a slur. Knowingly or indirectly using it via not properly checking the artist/lyrics.
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
It being easy to mistake something for something offensive still isn't a bad reason to change or remove something. And my point is more that in this case, it's something most people wouldn't even notice. It's a freestyle bit that people never paid attention to before the Kotaku UK article went up.

If a change does nothing but please a small group of people who had issue with it, then I don't see a problem with it at all.
There is nothing there. Nothing needs to be changed. Jesus fuck.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,650
Big part of the problem is that the original article was the literal example of "looking for something to be offended by" and will now be used to discredit any genuine article LKD and Kotaku may publish in future.
Very unprofessional mistake and really stupid lapse in judgement from them.
I think that's a bit disingenuous, it was something that was overheard, it's not like they sat down with the game and said "we need to have an outrage article."
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
Yeah, I just watched Vox's video a few days ago on how the explicit lyrics sticker came to be and a big part of the video is about that. How the religious right jumped on Stairway to Heaven and pushed that it said "Here's to my sweet Satan" when played backwards. But they also point out that people couldn't hear that being said until the person playing the record told them that's what it was meant to say.
yep, is ironic how some people have come to behave a lot like the religious right back in the day.
 

Damn Silly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,188
The article shouldn't have been run, but they've now apologised and hopefully everyone can move on (given the internet in general, I somehow doubt it).

Honestly more embarrassed at this point by the shite spewed at both the outlet and LKD on Twitter to be honest.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,050
Seattle
Reminds me of a game magazine reaching out to paradox for about Crusader Kings 2 for a statement, because a few people were outraged about Crusader Kings using the alt right term 'Deus Vult'

It's pretty obvious that some publications make click baity articles to drive views
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
As others have pointed out, the word "retard" (the verb) also has meaning in musical context. I was just talking about mechanics as one particular example.

My broader point is that this word has other meanings than just the slur and they are used relatively frequently when compared to other slurs. The context around the word in this case is just as important as the actual word used, if not more so.
And nobody is using that term in a song unless it's a slur, let's be honest. That said, it's irellavant because it's not in the song.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
What a weird misfire of an article.

Racial bias combined with a race for clicks is a hell of a drug.

That article ignores nearly a dozen SPJ guidelines. It is a textbook example of what not to do. I would expect something like that out of a high school blogger who just tried to author their first "investigative" piece. Not a professional journalist at an international outlet.

Shame about the unnecessary hate that appeared on Twitter and elsewhere because of this article.

Getting criticized for the article should never be labeled as "unnecessary hate." Calling out racism is always a good thing, and never unnecessary.

East Asian voices speaking ESL have been mocked for years, and the original article just continued that tradition. It was a clickbait hit piece, designed to impugn the singer with a false accusation. The vocalist's only "crime" was singing in accented English.

It's well known that suggestion plays a part in how people hear things (see the various viral "challenges" that have made the rounds), which means that anyone listening after reading the original piece is also going to be biased.

Honestly, the only surprising thing is that this got called out at all, because this type of racism is usually overlooked. It shouldn't be overlooked though. People should rightfully get called out for this, in the same way the Twitch streamer got called out for blackface. The more this can be "unnormalized", the better.
 

Deleted member 32018

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Nov 8, 2017
7,628
What I don't understand is why LKD was forced to publish the article and why the person who forced her to publish did not come out and own up to it. If it was the editor Rich then looking at some of the stuff he's posted on the Kotaku UK Twitter, he's not the most professional of fellows and that would explain it. Knowing all the hate LKD has got over the years, if I was her superior/colleague I would do what I could to protect her from it if it was my mess up.
 

DVCY201

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,166
As much as i love the soundtracks, persona, espcially 3's, english lyrics are mostly gibberish.

'Restart it' probably makes the most sense here.

It was a bad article that should have waited for comment, but this will just fuel the gamer gate crowd as always.
Oh yea, I've looked at the lyrics and it really is just mostly gibberish. I haven't even bothered with P5's lyrics because I expect mostly the same.

I think it's a valid question ask what's being said, but it was rushed to be published.
 

Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The funny thing is, if you actually Google this, so spend 2 secs researching, it's not the first time others have thought it

https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/6o0rtx/question_about_the_lyrics_in_wake_up_get_up_get/

8th of July, 2017.

But simply sounding like something isn't grounds for factually stating it is. Especially not if we're dealing with non-native English singers. Seems there are other songs in the Persona series that have the same issues according to that reddit post.

I swear the lyrics for a Persona 1 PSP song go "...THIS MEXICAN-LOOKING ASSHOLE!"

Heheh. The P1 song is Bloody Destiny, at around 24 seconds in.

Because I doubt that is what it is saying...
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,563
I genuinely do not understand how the hell Kotaku could publish this article, when the song has been publicly available for more than a year now, it's lyrics are visible to anyone who googles them...

Like, is Jason Schrier the only one who does research there before publishing an article?
 

Venom.

Member
Oct 26, 2017
424
London
Personal abuse or hate comments directed at Laura Kate Dale is not acceptable. However it is okay to criticise how the article was written or the journalistic process at Kotaku UK, because if it is flawed then it raises wider questions about the quality of other journalism from the outlet. If a writer from there suspected there was an offensive lyric in a game they should not just go and publish an article about it, they have a responsibility to fact check it first. I do understand that with some stories there is a time factor that means this is not always possible, but this was not one of those instances. If the allegations are unfounded and proved financially damaging to Atlus and Nintendo then, in the UK then the companies would have a strong case to sue Kotaku UK and Future Publishing. The author's approach was not prioritising facts, but rather to make an op-ed to educate readers what the word retarded is, and why it is a slur. A bit of journalism training teaches that relying on personal opinions is not journalism.
 

hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,855
Chicago, IL
I genuinely do not understand how the hell Kotaku could publish this article, when the song has been publicly available for more than a year now, it's lyrics are visible to anyone who googles them...

Like, is Jason Schrier the only one who does research there before publishing an article?

Kotaku UK is not Kotaku.com(where jason works).
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
User Banned (1 Month): Transphobia; rationalising harassment over a series of posts. Account still in junior phase.
Know a few people who worked with the author in question and based on their previous experience with the author this is par for the course.

No reason to harass/go after someone of course, but it seems like the politics come before writing/truth once again.

The worst part is this just gives more ammo for people against credible writers (even at Kotaku) like Schrier and (my personal favorite) Tim Rogers and the like. There are good people under the Kotaku banner that don't always get it right, but they usually handle it way better than doubling down, blaming their editor, and then fleeing the scene.

Apparently they were told not to publically respond which makes sense, but still a shame this was so terribly handled and then the site just left the unaltered article up and just went "sorry guys we made the change promise but we need the clicks and can't get this damn edit button to go through" lol.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,908
What I don't understand is why LKD was forced to publish the article and why the person who forced her to publish did not come out and own up to it. If it was the editor Rich then looking at some of the stuff he's posted on the Kotaku UK Twitter, he's not the most professional of fellows and that would explain it. Knowing all the hate LKD has got over the years, if I was her superior/colleague I would do what I could to protect her from it if it was my mess up.

LKD is still saying on twitter that she's not sure what the lyrics says, even now. It sounds like there's still no acceptance that she was wrong.
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
LKD is still saying on twitter that she's not sure what the lyrics says, even now. It sounds like there's still no acceptance that she was wrong.

That's unfortunately what happens with a lot of people. More than enough cases where the person doubles down and or flees the scene instead of taking ownership of anything.

I've been wrong a number of times and own up to that fact. It's a shame that it's so hard to go "I was wrong" take down the article, and try to rebuild that good will. But clicks are power these days.
 

Andri

Member
Mar 20, 2018
6,017
Switzerland
Know a few people who worked with the author in question and based on their previous experience with the author this is par for the course.

No reason to harass/go after someone of course, but it seems like the politics come before writing/truth once again.

The worst part is this just gives more ammo for people against credible writers (even at Kotaku) like Schrier and (my personal favorite) Tim Rogers and the like. There are good people under the Kotaku banner that don't always get it right, but they usually handle it way better than doubling down, blaming their editor, and then fleeing the scene.

Apparently they were told not to publically respond which makes sense, but still a shame this was so terribly handled and then the site just left the unaltered article up and just went "sorry guys we made the change promise but we need the clicks and can't get this damn edit button to go through" lol.

People have said it already, but just to be clear.

Kotaku UK and Kotaku US(where shreier and Rogers work) are not the same company, not subdivisions of the same parent).

Its sad that bad reporting from one site reduces the credibility of a totaly unrelated site, but that is kind of to be expected when they have the same name.

Does Kotaku mean something generic/specific so that neither can prevent the other from using the name ?
 

Euler.L.

Alt account
Banned
Mar 29, 2019
906
Know a few people who worked with the author in question and based on their previous experience with the author this is par for the course.

No reason to harass/go after someone of course, but it seems like the politics come before writing/truth once again.

The worst part is this just gives more ammo for people against credible writers (even at Kotaku) like Schrier and (my personal favorite) Tim Rogers and the like. There are good people under the Kotaku banner that don't always get it right, but they usually handle it way better than doubling down, blaming their editor, and then fleeing the scene.

Apparently they were told not to publically respond which makes sense, but still a shame this was so terribly handled and then the site just left the unaltered article up and just went "sorry guys we made the change promise but we need the clicks and can't get this damn edit button to go through" lol.

I actually only know her from trying to fabricate "the first Switch game" story, despite the game in question was rejected by everyone (and she knew it), inlcuding faking blurry faking screenshots.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Here's an informative post for those that care

A new study by Dr. Wei Ji Ma, assistant professor of neuroscience at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Tex., may finally reveal why so many of us think Freddie Mercury is singing "Beelzebub has a devil for a son named Steve" in Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody."

Turns out, unless you're looking at a person's face, it's much harder to understand what he or she is saying (or singing), according to Ma, who recently authored a study on lip-reading.

"Understanding speech can be difficult, especially when it's noisy," or overwhelmed by a loud music track, says Ma, whose study appeared in the March journal of Public Library of Science. "We found that this process can be helped a lot by looking at the speaker's face. If you have only sound information, you will sometimes make mistakes. But if you also have the visual information, the brain will combine those two pieces and get a better sense of what's being said."

The brain is like a police detective interviewing various witnesses after a crime, says Ma.

Visual information is one witness; auditory information is another. But just as in a criminal investigation, the witnesses can sometimes get the facts wrong. The brain basically weighs all the information it has and makes its best possible guess based on its own biases. Which is where that infamously wrong Creedence Clearwater Revival lyric, "There's a bathroom on the right" instead of "There's a bad moon on the rise" comes into play.

"What seems to be happening with misunderstood song lyrics is that what you hear is not always reliable," says Ma. "It's noisy, the singer is singing fast, he's not articulating well or maybe he has an accent. The sound information is uncertain, that's step one."

Step two is when the brain combines the sound information with whatever other information it has at its disposal, including prior beliefs or expectations.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/blinded-lyric-study-reveals-why-we-get-words-wrong-1C9386884
 

Papercuts

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,013
The funny thing is, if you actually Google this, so spend 2 secs researching, it's not the first time others have thought it

https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/6o0rtx/question_about_the_lyrics_in_wake_up_get_up_get/

8th of July, 2017.

But simply sounding like something isn't grounds for factually stating it is. Especially not if we're dealing with non-native English singers. Seems there are other songs in the Persona series that have the same issues according to that reddit post.





Because I doubt that is what it is saying...

And then, once you read that, it makes you hear it.



That is hilarious.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
People have said it already, but just to be clear.

Kotaku UK and Kotaku US(where shreier and Rogers work) are not the same company, not subdivisions of the same parent).

Its sad that bad reporting from one site reduces the credibility of a totaly unrelated site, but that is kind of to be expected when they have the same name.

Does Kotaku mean something generic/specific so that neither can prevent the other from using the name ?
They used to be subdivisions of the larger company, but the dissolution of Gawker led to them being picked up by separate companies, if I'm not wrong.
 

Bit_Reactor

Banned
Apr 9, 2019
4,413
People have said it already, but just to be clear.

Kotaku UK and Kotaku US(where shreier and Rogers work) are not the same company, not subdivisions of the same parent).

Its sad that bad reporting from one site reduces the credibility of a totaly unrelated site, but that is kind of to be expected when they have the same name.

Does Kotaku mean something generic/specific so that neither can prevent the other from using the name ?

It'd be like if I came up with a site called "IGN-X" and then tried to say that I'm in no way related to IGN proper.

There's definitely wiggle room when it comes to IP/naming sites and such, but when the biggest name in gaming journalism (Kotaku and arguably polygon) has that name and you're part of it, and your banner is the EXACT SAME as the main Kotaku pages, understandably people will draw a correlation.

I mean...
Ro18ew6.png



Come on....look at the banner

Regardless of accuracy, the logo, branding, and name recognition alone is enough. Is it good? Nah. Does it suck people don't realize the difference? Sure. But the "difference" is that someone wearing the same logo and name as another site said something stupid, so people will naturally treat it as fuel on the proverbial fire.
 
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Andri

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Mar 20, 2018
6,017
Switzerland
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