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Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
What are yours? 🤣

Fucking hell...

And herein lies the problem. This isn't engaging with the discussion in a meaningful way, this is blustering and avoiding the question.

I can personally provide several recommendations for implementing cross-game items, but they're unlikely to get any widespread adoption because they require ceding creative power, control, and self-determination, spending a lot of money for little reward, stifling actual innovation, and introducing balancing, QA, and legal nightmares.

I'd love to hear if your recommendations would fare better.

People can provide numerous examples of roadblocks that will prevent (and have been preventing) cross-game items. Just hand-waving it away as "someone smarter than me will figure it out" is a disservice to your argument.
 

afrodubs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,093
And herein lies the problem. This isn't engaging with the discussion in a meaningful way, this is blustering and avoiding the question.

I can personally provide several recommendations for implementing cross-game items, but they're unlikely to get any widespread adoption because they require ceding creative power, control, and self-determination, spending a lot of money for little reward, stifling actual innovation, and introducing balancing, QA, and legal nightmares.

I'd love to hear if your recommendations would fare better.

People can provide numerous examples of roadblocks that will prevent (and have been preventing) cross-game items. Just hand-waving it away as "someone smarter than me will figure it out" is a disservice to your argument.
It's not even that. I'd rather keep my ideas to myself is all....
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
It's not even that. I'd rather keep my ideas to myself is all....

1081.gif
 

RoaminRonin

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,768
Wannabe crytobro thinks blizzard will allow me to bring my frostmourne over into gow because I own the fungible token... lmao.
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,295
So when somebody prints and sells t-shirts with "stolen artwork" .... Ban printers, ban t-shirts, nah ink let's ban ink.


You see the problem I have is that instead of highlighting the issue without blanket demonising NFTs and blockchain, raising awareness, and pushing for legislation. The NFT isn't the problem here, it's the thief, the marketplace that won't help with enforcement, and the mission that's making it sound like as an artist you should ignore NFTs as they are useless, environmentally unfriendly, and cost prohibitive apparently. Which is bollox and pay of the reason why I started posting on this thread.

Misinformation muddies the water and adds to the confusion around this topic when in actuality NFT as a concept isn't hard to understand there's just so much noise, from both sides.
It's a lot of work to bootleg t-shirts and the profit margins are small, which is why thousands of artists aren't having their entire body of work made into shirts every day. That is not the case with NFTs.

And the vast majority of artists are rejecting NFTs out of hand, because of the massive environmental cost of producing them. People hate this shit, because it's a useless waste. And make no mistake: it is a waste. Crypto, as a whole, is a massively polluting industry (don't even try to contradict me on that, it's an established fact), and it produces literally nothing. It's like burning a full tank of gas to print a receipt. It's shameful and stupid and shortsighted and stupid, and - like I keep fucking saying - it literally has no purpose whatsoever except scams and pyramid schemes.

Edit: I said "stupid" twice, but fuck it, crypto is double stupid, so it's fine.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,385
UK
I'm so glad that this is the year that I just decided to stop buying video games. What an absolutely abysmal direction the electronic entertainment industry is headed in.
 

trashbandit

Member
Dec 19, 2019
3,910
I would never say I've made my mind up but what compelling arguements have I had to deal with?

People have claimed it's not worth doing because we have ways to do it already. So I'm reading that as many think it's not worth the work to even try and implement it. They can hire me if they want I'll have a go at it...

The last paragraph, you think it's going south, I don't. It's lead you to look at what's happened and is happening, fearfully and in reaction you want to shut the door. Too late for that, hence the thread, and that ignores the fact that people iterate on and learn from what's happened before. It also ignores all of the other activity in the space and focuses on the tips of the icebergs that lead to threads on here. Like I said let's see how it unfolds as I'm a hell of a lot more optimistic on this stuff than most of you.

This isn't my first rodeo...

Again, there is no reason we can't exercise a modicum of foresight to see that this is not a good idea. Even just doing napkin math on the cost to adopt this tech, it quickly becomes clear that it really, truly, does not make sense to invest in the infrastructure. NFT's require a blockchain, and at the end of the day, that has to sit on the existing internet architecture, complete with all the costs and problems that entails. All NFT's, and the blockchain's they use, do is add a layer of abstraction; it's another middleman that does not solve a problem or make an existing solution better or more efficient. If you feel otherwise, then the onus is on you to justify it's adoption.

What exactly is compelling about adding unnecessary complexity where it is not needed?
Why is the fact that we have better ways to do everything an NFT claims to do alone not compelling to you?

If this isn't your first rodeo(whatever that's supposed in this context), you have no reason to be this naive. You can be optimistic in the absence of tangible data or evidence, but we're no longer at that stage of adoption. There hasn't been an actual use case enumerated for the adoption of a blockchain except to support the cryptocurrencies that rely on it. NFT's are just another attempt to legitimize and spread and adoption of tech that excels at nothing, and is measurably worse in performance and consumption than functionally equivalent tech.

If given all that you still think wait and see is justified, then I see no reason why anyone should take your arguments seriously; it's the rhetorical equivalent to sticking your head in the sand to avoid criticism of a thing you hope works out, consequences be damned.
 
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Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Perfect time to skip anything Ubisoft put out with these shitty NFTs included. Vote with your wallets people
 

Walnut

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
878
Austin, TX
Parrots the environmental arguement (which has already had it's irony highlighted) when NFTs or blockchain aren't inherently environmentally unfriendly.
For people who are highly concerned about the environment, NFTs objectively use more energy to validate than a database on Ubisoft's server farm. That's just the nature of the tech since you are involving extra computers drawing high amounts of electricity to validate.

Whether you think it's an issue or not is up to personal choice, but if you're asking "why don't people like these?" then that is one piece to the answer to your question.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,151
afrodubs I haven't read all posts here, so I don't know if this point has been brought up yet.

I think NFTs will only lead to more expensive cosmetics. If you look at Dota 2 and Csgo steam marketplace, which works similar to those Ape NFTs and probably how most gaming NFTs will work in the future, then you see cosmetics which cost up to hundreds of dollars. Rarity and scarcity only makes things more expensive for most end users and leads to an even bigger gambling problem then lootboxes already are.
 

RomanticHeroX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,882
For example, NFTs and blockchain aren't inherently a grift, Ponzi, or laundering scheme either, it's just tech that will be used by whoever to do what they wish to do with it. If and when you find some that are bad and do those things, by all means, direct your ire there. I wont stop you, I'll probably join in...
Anything described as not "inherently a Ponzi" is 100% a Ponzi. Enjoy your grift!
 

Kabukimurder

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
550
I'm not defending Ubisoft or NFTs but from reading that article it doesn't seem like "NFTs are just the beginning" was an actual thing that the CEO said. Seems more like he person who created the header on that article didn't actually read the article..
 

Shep572

Member
Nov 26, 2019
39
For me, I don't see the appeal in argument for carrying these items between games. I feel that part of the excitment of a new game is progression and gradually unlocking more and more stuff for my character. Personally I'd get a bit bored with my character looking the same between every game using my warddrobe of NFTs.

The only part of this that I could get behind as a player is that I might make a bit of money from the re-sale, but that's not a reason I'd want to play a game. If I want to speculatively invest, I'd just buy some volatile stocks. Don't really want to think about that stuff whilst I'm trying to lose myself in a game.

That said, maybe there's something I'm missing. Putting the money aspect aside, I would love to hear how people would feel it would enhance their game experience?
 

afrodubs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,093
afrodubs I haven't read all posts here, so I don't know if this point has been brought up yet.

I think NFTs will only lead to more expensive cosmetics. If you look at Dota 2 and Csgo steam marketplace, which works similar to those Ape NFTs and probably how most gaming NFTs will work in the future, then you see cosmetics which cost up to hundreds of dollars. Rarity and scarcity only makes things more expensive for most end users and leads to an even bigger gambling problem then lootboxes already are.
Possibly, and these are the use cases that we should avoid. Someone said it earlier, we will vote with our wallets and just not buy them, it's only cosmetic. And if it isn't then we can boycott it as p2w.

I don't see the huge shift in gaming as we know it that some do, but I do think we'll see examples of what you mentioned above.
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,841
Netherlands
That's my point. NFTs are, as other have said, a way to do the same without shouldering the costs of setting up an infrastructure behind it.
This sounds like a possible merit, but they would still need to set up a rights transfer system, a way to track and collect the transaction fees, and a verification procedure, or in other words, pretty much all of the infrastructure.

The only thing NFTs add is a hash, which is trivially easy to program, and hardly something that Ubisoft needs to outsource. The way that NFTs go about it, is that the hash is decentralized which... really doesn't benefit Ubisoft at all, unless they actually want to lose control of their assets.

I again highly doubt this is their thinking.
 
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LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,327
"Its just tech not a pyramid scheme" only works if you completely ignore the way the tech is used. Not just in general either, the way Ubisoft will use it too.
 

StarStorm

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,594
Haven''t bought anything from Ubisoft in years. Yves couldn't give a concise answer on NFT other than Roblox and Metaverse. It was good knowing you Ubi.
 

afrodubs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,093
For people who are highly concerned about the environment, NFTs objectively use more energy to validate than a database on Ubisoft's server farm. That's just the nature of the tech since you are involving extra computers drawing high amounts of electricity to validate.

Whether you think it's an issue or not is up to personal choice, but if you're asking "why don't people like these?" then that is one piece to the answer to your question.
If you read my earlier posts you can see I'm for the use of proof of stake in these implementations. This thread is about a PoS implementation but had people focusing on the environmental aspect of NFTs. I've just highlighted the difference. Environmental concerns are very valid for proof of work.
 

afrodubs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,093
User Permanently Thread Banned: Thread Derailment
You know what that locked thread and how some of you treated the guy actually engaging with you was toxic as fuck. Y'all need to take a long hard look at yourselves...
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
What are the negative implications of a wide adoption of nfts? I don't know much if anything about it, and I understand that they do not seem to add anything positive to the medium, but what are the perils?
Imagine a game where you can rent out your cool sword and make some bucks. Cool right?
Now imagine a game where you have to rent a sword.
 

dodmaster

Member
Apr 27, 2019
2,548
Good for Kotaku to signal boost people make games' investigation into Roblox. But they failed to mention child exploitation. The fact that this dollar-pupilled lizard wants to emulate Roblox and it's black market, NFTs aimed at minors is not in the least bit surprising.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,576
Can anyone please tell me how NFT work in games? I could barely understand what NFT are (still can't fully udnerstand what they are for), now what are they doing in games? Ok I udnerstand that that there are some games they make you mine for crytocurrencies but what is an NFT doing in games? Whats this quartz NFT they are talking about?
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
Can anyone please tell me how NFT work in games?

Truthfully, nobody knows yet. If you were to ask me personally, the answer would be "they don't", but that doesn't mean people with a financial interest in getting them to work aren't going to keep pushing.

NFTs don't really bring anything to the in-game table tech-wise, their two major benefits are external (the ability to sell ownership outside of the game, and the vague ideal of "decentralization"). Their in-game implementation is mostly based on how scummy the company doing the implementation is.

So, actual in-game implementation can be a wide spectrum. There are two major implementations thus far, though.

Play to Earn.

This is the far scummier implementation. In this case, the game itself is secondary to creating NFTs (and thus hopefully earning money). This can even extend to profiting off the work of others in-game.

Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead are jumping in with a model where players buy land with real money, and then get a financial cut of anything that happens on that land.

There's Axie Infinity, which is apparently like Pokemon, but with the Pokemon being individual NFTs. The thing with it, though, is that you need to buy in. If you can't buy in, you can use a loaner Pokemon, but the owner of that Pokemon gets a cut of whatever you earn. This one was successful for a bit, but mostly by exploiting cheap foreign workers (a la WoW gold farming). The bottom seems to have fallen out now, though.

In either case, the schpiel is "get in early, so you can be the one on the top!"

Beyond that, there are also several hundred Techbro NFT games that are just godawful ugly clickers that mint NFTs and that's it. Picture the level of effort put into most NFT art and extend that to an entire game. Half of them cut and run as soon as they get the money. Follow Dan Olsen on Twitter, he's tracking them pretty well.

Cosmetic Microtransactions, but they're NFTs for some reason.

This is what Ubisoft is trying. The attempt is to have microtransactions in-game be NFTs instead of an entry in Sony's or Ubisoft's or whoever's database.

This one's just normal microtransactions with artificial scarcity. So, instead of people just buying/earning something because they want it, suddenly there's financial speculation involved. So, microtransactions but there's hoarding and scalping and fucking around with market valuation.

One thing that people often bring up as a benefit of cosmetic microtransactions being NFTs is that maybe someday they can be used across games. "Maybe" is doing a lot of work here, though.

There's a secret third implementation that was attempted but failed, too:

Kickstarter Rewards as NFTs.

Thus is the most nonsense one. The people making the new Stalker game tried to sell NFTs for getting your name in the game and getting your body scanned into the game and such. The weird part was, this would be non-transferable once the game was finished. So, the NFTs effectively held value until the release of the game, at which point they were just useless. It seemed like they were just jumping on the NFT bandwagon (and thr artificial inflation that would result from it) rather than running an auction or whatever.

The community outrage forced them to back down.

Summary.

In summary, NFTs are a land of contrasts. They're nothing more than a database entry, really, so actual in-game implementation depends on what the people doing the implementing want to get out of it. In most cases it's money, of course, so that's how things are going.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,576
Truthfully, nobody knows yet. If you were to ask me personally, the answer would be "they don't", but that doesn't mean people with a financial interest in getting them to work aren't going to keep pushing.

NFTs don't really bring anything to the in-game table tech-wise, their two major benefits are external (the ability to sell ownership outside of the game, and the vague ideal of "decentralization"). Their in-game implementation is mostly based on how scummy the company doing the implementation is.

So, actual in-game implementation can be a wide spectrum. There are two major implementations thus far, though.

Play to Earn.

This is the far scummier implementation. In this case, the game itself is secondary to creating NFTs (and thus hopefully earning money). This can even extend to profiting off the work of others in-game.

Peter Molyneux and The Walking Dead are jumping in with a model where players buy land with real money, and then get a financial cut of anything that happens on that land.

There's Axie Infinity, which is apparently like Pokemon, but with the Pokemon being individual NFTs. The thing with it, though, is that you need to buy in. If you can't buy in, you can use a loaner Pokemon, but the owner of that Pokemon gets a cut of whatever you earn. This one was successful for a bit, but mostly by exploiting cheap foreign workers (a la WoW gold farming). The bottom seems to have fallen out now, though.

In either case, the schpiel is "get in early, so you can be the one on the top!"

Beyond that, there are also several hundred Techbro NFT games that are just godawful ugly clickers that mint NFTs and that's it. Picture the level of effort put into most NFT art and extend that to an entire game. Half of them cut and run as soon as they get the money. Follow Dan Olsen on Twitter, he's tracking them pretty well.

Cosmetic Microtransactions, but they're NFTs for some reason.

This is what Ubisoft is trying. The attempt is to have microtransactions in-game be NFTs instead of an entry in Sony's or Ubisoft's or whoever's database.

This one's just normal microtransactions with artificial scarcity. So, instead of people just buying/earning something because they want it, suddenly there's financial speculation involved. So, microtransactions but there's hoarding and scalping and fucking around with market valuation.

One thing that people often bring up as a benefit of cosmetic microtransactions being NFTs is that maybe someday they can be used across games. "Maybe" is doing a lot of work here, though.

There's a secret third implementation that was attempted but failed, too:

Kickstarter Rewards as NFTs.

Thus is the most nonsense one. The people making the new Stalker game tried to sell NFTs for getting your name in the game and getting your body scanned into the game and such. The weird part was, this would be non-transferable once the game was finished. So, the NFTs effectively held value until the release of the game, at which point they were just useless. It seemed like they were just jumping on the NFT bandwagon (and thr artificial inflation that would result from it) rather than running an auction or whatever.

The community outrage forced them to back down.

Summary.

In summary, NFTs are a land of contrasts. They're nothing more than a database entry, really, so actual in-game implementation depends on what the people doing the implementing want to get out of it. In most cases it's money, of course, so that's how things are going.

Thanks for the explantion. Oh man they seem worse than ingame MTX which at least could bring some profits and and advantage to players (with ofc the big part of profits goes to the game holder) but here it's really zero gain for the gamers and just behidn the scene trabnsactions happening while we play without us even gaining anything.
Just curious, is this legallty, legal? I mean this seems suspicious to me, it is not that far from gambling or similar actions.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
Thanks for the explantion. Oh man they seem worse than ingame MTX which at least could bring some profits and and advantage to players (with ofc the big part of profits goes to the game holder) but here it's really zero gain for the gamers and just behidn the scene trabnsactions happening while we play without us even gaining anything.
Just curious, is this legallty, legal? I mean this seems suspicious to me, it is not that far from gambling or similar actions.

The only real equivalent of it right now is the Steam Marketplace, where you can earn and sell cards and in-game skins for Steam Wallet funds.

Steam has very pointedly avoided allowing players to "cash out", though. You can buy other skins or even games in their ecosystem, but you can't convert it to real money. This is most likely being done for legal reasons, and to avoid too much scrutiny from regulators.

Both Valve and Blizzard have also worked hard to shut down offsite sales (Skin casinos and gold farmers) so there's definitely a legal/balancing reason they don't want those happening.

Moving it to the blockchain maybe gives them plausible deniability, but once the IRS or other regulators take a closer look at it the market may dry up because people aren't able to artificially inflate their shit anymore.
 

Vash

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,777
Thanks for the explantion. Oh man they seem worse than ingame MTX which at least could bring some profits and and advantage to players (with ofc the big part of profits goes to the game holder) but here it's really zero gain for the gamers and just behidn the scene trabnsactions happening while we play without us even gaining anything.
Just curious, is this legallty, legal? I mean this seems suspicious to me, it is not that far from gambling or similar actions.

Unfortunately, there are no real regulations yet regarding NFTs or crypto, because like lootboxes it is fairly new and the current governments in the world can barely grasp anything IT related as it is. So it will take a while before they're really going to look into regulating anything crypto, and after that NFTs. Unless it's proven to be a real issue for gambling addicts, and a strong lobby gets behind a massive push to regulate it, the bubble will be here for the time being.

That said, Liz Edwards has shown that it's starting to slowly unravel at the seams.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,576
The only real equivalent of it right now is the Steam Marketplace, where you can earn and sell cards and in-game skins for Steam Wallet funds.

Steam has very pointedly avoided allowing players to "cash out", though. You can buy other skins or even games in their ecosystem, but you can't convert it to real money. This is most likely being done for legal reasons, and to avoid too much scrutiny from regulators.

Both Valve and Blizzard have also worked hard to shut down offsite sales (Skin casinos and gold farmers) so there's definitely a legal/balancing reason they don't want those happening.

Moving it to the blockchain maybe gives them plausible deniability, but once the IRS or other regulators take a closer look at it the market may dry up because people aren't able to artificially inflate their shit anymore.

When i remember that some CSGO knife skins cost around 20k bucks, now I get what you mean. I hope this won't escalate gradually to something that will directly affect the gameplay and gamers.
 

MechaJackie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,032
Brazil
Just curious, is this legallty, legal? I mean this seems suspicious to me, it is not that far from gambling or similar actions.
One big argument that was made by companies for why Loot Boxes weren't gambling was that they had "no value outside of the game", with NFTs suddenly that's not true at all anymore, and therefore it would just be straight up gambling, which is illegal in quite a few countries and has a whole different set of laws associated with it in the US.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Possibly, and these are the use cases that we should avoid. Someone said it earlier, we will vote with our wallets and just not buy them, it's only cosmetic.
The problem with voting with wallets is thta the bigger the wallet, the more vote you get.
That's why MTX are never going away and why they tried so hard to push lootboxes on kids until literal legislators warned that they were going for them.

The only real equivalent of it right now is the Steam Marketplace, where you can earn and sell cards and in-game skins for Steam Wallet funds.

Steam has very pointedly avoided allowing players to "cash out", though. You can buy other skins or even games in their ecosystem, but you can't convert it to real money. This is most likely being done for legal reasons, and to avoid too much scrutiny from regulators.

Both Valve and Blizzard have also worked hard to shut down offsite sales (Skin casinos and gold farmers) so there's definitely a legal/balancing reason they don't want those happening.

Moving it to the blockchain maybe gives them plausible deniability, but once the IRS or other regulators take a closer look at it the market may dry up because people aren't able to artificially inflate their shit anymore.
Roblox also do this on a whole platform of games.
People Make Games has a recent video explaining the process.....also Roblox didn't shut down offsite sales because late stage capitalism.
 

Unclebenny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,766
The only real equivalent of it right now is the Steam Marketplace, where you can earn and sell cards and in-game skins for Steam Wallet funds.

Steam has very pointedly avoided allowing players to "cash out", though. You can buy other skins or even games in their ecosystem, but you can't convert it to real money. This is most likely being done for legal reasons, and to avoid too much scrutiny from regulators.

Both Valve and Blizzard have also worked hard to shut down offsite sales (Skin casinos and gold farmers) so there's definitely a legal/balancing reason they don't want those happening.

Moving it to the blockchain maybe gives them plausible deniability, but once the IRS or other regulators take a closer look at it the market may dry up because people aren't able to artificially inflate their shit anymore.

Here in the UK, as soon as you start being able to cash out of a system, it is much easier for it to be legally classified as gambling. Think this is similar across Europe as well.

So yes, I think you are right, this could very quickly bring some legal ire the way of these companies, if they allow cash money to be pulled out of the system directly.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Here in the UK, as soon as you start being able to cash out of a system, it is much easier for it to be legally classified as gambling. Think this is similar across Europe as well.

So yes, I think you are right, this could very quickly bring some legal ire the way of these companies, if they allow cash money to be pulled out of the system directly.
Don't forget the money laundering liabilities.
They're gonna be hit extra hard to make sure criminals aren't using this launder their dirty money.
It'll be super easy to justify too as well, if there's one thing politicians love is a good ole sin tax.
 

Falchion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,917
Boise
I can't even imagine how frustrating it would be to be a graphic artist and waste so much time designing assets for use by one person.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
The value of NFTs are largely if not entirely driven by wash trading, if Ubisoft can't do or allow this, Quartz will continue to flounder among an OpenSea of inflated digital receipts where people inflate the value of their database entries and will either sell them at a "discount" which is still massively artificially inflated or sell it at the current inflated price out of a FOMO on future gains.