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Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,885
Netherlands
I've been a long vocal critic of the US's abysmal worker protection rights, and how it made the global gaming industry that I'm part of a miserable place with the way it sets expectations. I even think being a chud is no reason to get fired, as righteous as it may be. But holy shit, posting an eight paragraph rant against women's rights is a great way to make any kind of work relation impossible. I wouldn't want to be in the same room with that person.
 

Helix

Mayor of Clown Town
Member
Jun 8, 2019
23,797
afaik travel expenses were already included in MS healthcare, the recent events just made so that they included travels to states or even countries where abortion is legal. If Bethesda didn't provide that, that's a good moment to demand improvementes.

looks like that that's the point of the article. hopefully something is actually done about it.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,071
There's a lot of shit that goes on work slacks now that people are more comfortable working from home and studios are on competitive hiring sprees. I don't see anything happening in this case other than a stern talking would be a lawsuit waiting to happen for the company. But all their co-workers will note this.

Don't know if it's changed but Zenimax and all it's studios used to love to put people in blacklists where they would never hire you again if you left the company for any reason. These are the kind of assholes who worked at those companies.
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,862
One Bethesda employee caused significant controversy in the work Slack when he posted an eight paragraph rant against abortion. "I'm dismayed over the consistent crying out for the 'right' to murder one's own kin," he wrote. "Human rights aren't being violated in overturning Roe vs. Wade, they're being restored for those who cannot speak for themselves." The message included eleven quotes from the Bible.

Oh shut up you worthless fool.

What we women do with our bodies is none of your fucking business.
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,389
It does not bode well for Activision Blizzard but let's hope for the best.
This is the first thing I thought about. They're even bigger than ZeniMax so they'll certainly maintain a bunch of autonomy as well?

Which really does not inspire confidence that the company will be cleaned up. I really hope that isn't the case, we will have to wait and see.
 

Watershed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,820
This whole "no politics at work" rule is going to be untenable as people's rights keep getting stripped away.

What happens when (not if) gay marriage is next? Are companies just going to tell their distraught LBGT workers "hey, we know your life is in complete turmoil because of recent events, but please remember no politics. Keep things positive!" ?
It's already untenable. Women just lost their federal right to abortion care. We're past the point of keeping politics out of the workplace.
 

AvianAviator

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Jun 23, 2021
6,363
Sigh.

I get being saddened by abortion. I get it. I get thinking that fetuses have souls, whatever.

But you've gotta understand that...y'know...a fetus is literally growing of a woman's body...it's literally a piece of her...so she has the ultimate say. You can't tell her that it's murder...it's a medical procedure on HER BODY. IT IS A PIECE OF HER BODY. IT IS NOT A PERSON YET. You have to take a deep breath and relax. This isn't your fight.

I wish there was a way to make these people understand.
 

CabooseMSG

Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,192
Also according to the bible, fetuses are not people. It takes a LOT of twisting of scripture to make it anti-abortion.

Exodus 21:22-25 for example states that if fighting causes a miscarriage, you need to pay the husband (very patriarchal, no arguing that) a monetary sum. Whereas if your fighting also causes the woman to die, then you will be executed. Right there it makes the clear distinction between person and fetus.

Also it is inherent to Jewish belief that abortion is available and necessary. It is described in Hebrew scripture on how to perform abortions and why they are necessary sometimes to save a woman's life. So there are very valid arguments that banning abortion is restricting the Jewish faith.
 
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Shoot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,550
I dunno how that dude wasn't fired on the spot. I mean, I probably know why. But sheesh.
He has a right to speak for his beliefs without interference from the government. He does not have the right to not be punished and/or fired by his employer for having shitty beliefs.
I don't think it is legal to punish people like him in the United States.
I feel like they could claim this dude's creating a hostile work environment / gender discrimination, against corporate policy towards women's health and whatnot just as easily tho. Typical corporate training tells you to avoid these conversations and it's not about what you feel justified to say, but how it impacts others and how they interpret it. 🤷‍♂️
This is probably the safest route and may already be underway since it's only been a few days since his post.
Then the employee would sue, lower courts would agree with Bethesda, appeal and then goes to the SCOTUS. The nutjobs justices would side with the bigot.

It really pisses me off how emboldened these pieces of shit are.
These people get more and more confident when their government backs their views, this isn't a MS issue but more an America issue.
Yup. We'll be hearing more stories like this over there.
 

elbageluno

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 4, 2022
933
Those type of religious people always think they're right, that's where the confidence comes from.

Yep, they're going by (what they think) their God is saying, therefore how could they be wrong???

Insane mindset to have lol.

Reminds me of someone I know who constantly posts wild Trump/religious/conservative nonsense on FB daily.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,110
i dont think anything will happen to him besides maybe being buried and put on some no name team. Outside of a reprimand, they arent going to fire him as Bethesda will fear the blowback from his type if he was let go
 

Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,825
I'm sure those 11 quotes from the Bible were really fucking convincing. "Oh this dude believes in thousands of years old text based on no science that has been edited, censored, rewritten and translated numerous times over, which promotes a dogmatic and fervent belief in aspects of reality that are demonstrably false, and has no relationship to the reality of biological science. I guess I need to respect that opinion."

That fucker can eat shit. Stop acting like your dumb fucking book that explicitly cites a need for you to conform to message instead of reality due to a nebulous, obviously incorrect belief in something like "faith" gives you any fucking right to govern others beliefs. I'm so fucking tired of people thinking their ability to recite scripture means a fucking thing in this world.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
I was going to ask why anyone thinks it's their right to decide what other people can or can not do with their own bodies.

Deep down I know the answer but it still feels too vile to say it out loud. It's bad enough hearing it in my head.

I'm not expecting soulless corporations to be bastions of hope for what should be basic human rights, but if it's that hard to acknowledge that people have rights over their own bodies, I don't want anything to do with that company and I vow to never purchase any of their products until they change their fucking tune.

No Elder Scrolls or Skyrim in space is worth this bullshit.

Bethesda can either do the reasonable thing to do, or they can fuck right off.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
This just feels like further proof that nothing will change with Act/Blizzard once they get absorbed and it'll remain a total shitshow.
One person and you got all that from it? Do you know how many rogue emails/statements get sent out when people disagree with their company's actions? I have some stories about emails that will shock you.

I'd pump the breaks on that statement because one person posting this doesn't prove anything about MSFT.
 
Aug 16, 2020
61
This whole "no politics at work" rule is going to be untenable as people's rights keep getting stripped away.

What happens when (not if) gay marriage is next? Are companies just going to tell their distraught LBGT workers "hey, we know your life is in complete turmoil because of recent events, but please remember no politics. Keep things positive!" ?

I mean considering that abortion concerns the bodily autonomy of ~50% of the population and workplaces are being shit about this already i think the precedent has been pretty set in stone :/ can't see the outcry for marriage equality being bigger
 

Voodoopeople

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,859
I dunno how that dude wasn't fired on the spot. I mean, I probably know why. But sheesh.

Whilst I agree with you, it's not a sackable offence to object to abortion. We've had a few kick offs about it in our office this week. It's mad that this has happened. You can really feel this massive split in society right now.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
I dunno how that dude wasn't fired on the spot. I mean, I probably know why. But sheesh.
No, he shouldn't have been fired according to the laws. The company risks a lawsuit that would cost them even more. Just because we disagree with it doesn't make him wrong in the courts; especially with what's going on politically now. As a company, you have to remove your emotions when taking actions or those actions will be very costly.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
No, he shouldn't have been fired according to the laws. The company risks a lawsuit that would cost them even more. Just because we disagree with it doesn't make him wrong in the courts; especially with what's going on politically now. As a company, you have to remove your emotions when taking actions or those actions will be very costly.
I mean he's creating a hostile environment for other co-workers.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,071
Source? That's quite a shitty thing to do.
I guess it would be me hearing from different people who worked there and some art directors. I know it was especially bad back when the version of doom got canceled and slightly after when some of the art assets got leaked. I'll check to see if anyone ever talked about this publicly.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,601
No, he shouldn't have been fired according to the laws. The company risks a lawsuit that would cost them even more. Just because we disagree with it doesn't make him wrong in the courts; especially with what's going on politically now. As a company, you have to remove your emotions when taking actions or those actions will be very costly.

He wants women to lose their rights (because BIBLE) and people need to "remove their emotions"?

Everyday I lose a bit of my will to live ffs, what's the point in this world
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
I mean he's creating a hostile environment for other co-workers.
I'm not sure this counts. Although I don't like it, I wouldn't fire one of my engineers for it. I would most certainly talk to them about, but firing is the wrong course of action without fully understanding in corporate. The problem is, we don't know their history. Has this person been a problem before or is this their first incident? Was this triggered because he felt like his environment was against them.

As hard as it is, you have to remove your emotions, period.

There's so much that HR has to account for. The first thing HR does is try to help vs fire because they'll have a paper trail.

MSFT would 100% lose in court if they are fired and this is their first incident.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,601
I'm not sure this counts. Although I don't like it, I wouldn't fire one of my engineers for it. I would most certainly talk to them about, but firing is the wrong course of action without fully understanding in corporate. The problem is, we don't know their history. Has this person been a problem before or is this their first incident? Was this triggered because he felt like his environment was against them.

As hard as it is, you have to remove your emotions, period.

There's so much that HR has to account for. The first thing HR does is try to help vs fire because they'll have a paper trail.

This also goes if the person is against gay marriage? What's the line? (because if he quotes the bible 11 times...)

Btw, my office demanded everyone to vaccinate or quit. No repercussion happened.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
This also goes if the person is against gay marriage? What's the line? (because if he quotes the bible 11 times...)

Btw, my office demanded everone to vaccinate or quit. No repercussion happened.
I'm with all of you trust me, but it's not as cut and dry as you think. I don't follow the Bible and not close to religious but you have to treat them like everyone else. Especially with big corps. You can offer the a huge severance to not sue and leave, who knows but it's not fireable.
 

Darkknight2149

Ban made permanent due to harassment of staff
Banned
May 27, 2020
6,398
To put it bluntly, fuck that employee and fuck the Supreme Court for going rogue. Repealing Roe v Wade was bad enough (to put it mildly) and the Court has continued its authoritarian shit streak since then. Restricting the EPA's ability to regulate carbon emissions, taking a hammer to separation of church and state, threatening to go after contraception, gay marriage, and bring back sodomy laws next, ETC.

If Biden/congress doesn't codify Roe v Wade into law and pack the courts, my faith in politics and human rights law is dead.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,013
I'm not sure this counts. Although I don't like it, I wouldn't fire one of my engineers for it. I would most certainly talk to them about, but firing is the wrong course of action without fully understanding in corporate. The problem is, we don't know their history. Has this person been a problem before or is this their first incident? Was this triggered because he felt like his environment was against them.

As hard as it is, you have to remove your emotions, period.

There's so much that HR has to account for. The first thing HR does is try to help vs fire because they'll have a paper trail.

MSFT would 100% lose in court if they are fired and this is their first incident.

Religion observance is allowed so long as a reasonable accommodation is possible. An employee calling other employees, specifically other women, murderers is not what I call "a reasonable accommodation."

He's able to have his beliefs, in private. He's not allowed to harass other employees because they do not subscribe to his beliefs.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
Religion observance is allowed so long as a reasonable accommodation is possible. An employee calling other employees, specifically other women, murderers is not what I call "a reasonable accommodation."

He's able to have his beliefs, in private. He's not allowed to harass other employees because they do not subscribe to his beliefs.
Think about it like this, is yelling "abortion is okay" to a religious coworker alright? Writing an opinion piece on why it's okay that would offend, let's say 30% of the company? Again, remove your emotions from it. It's not alright and I wouldn't fire that person either.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,013
Think about it like this, is yelling "abortion is okay" to a religious coworker alright? Writing an opinion piece on why it's okay that would offend, let's say 30% of the company? Again, remove your emotions from it. It's not alright and I wouldn't fire that person either.

I am an attorney. My emotions are removed from it. You cannot harass people due to your religion and think you are shielded due to religious freedom. Imagine an employee writing a hit piece as a Muslim saying women at work not covering up are whores and devils who will go to hell.

You think that is protected? The issue is not him expressing an opinion based on his religion, it's him calling co-workers murderers and harassing them because they think differently than his religion.

You can be fired for that.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,601
Think about it like this, is yelling "abortion is okay" to a religious coworker alright? Writing an opinion piece on why it's okay that would offend, let's say 30% of the company?

Yes?

If society avoids anything that can be offensive to any religious person we're back 1000 years (which tbh seems to be the case)
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,965
California
I am an attorney. My emotions are removed from it. You cannot harass people due to your religion and think you are shielded due to religious freedom. Imagine an employee writing a hit piece as a Muslim saying women at work not covering up are whores and devils who will go to hell.

You think that is protected? The issue is not him expressing an opinion based on his religion, it's him calling co-workers murderers and harassing them because they think differently than his religion.

You can be fired for that.
We've had things worse that's happened and HR recommended treatment vs firing. Do we like it? Nope, but that's our HR department. This isn't a fireable offense for us if it's their first strike and I'd imagine many corps wouldn't either without a nice severance package.

I remember an incident that happened and we thought dude was for sure gone. Nope, he went to therapy first.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
I'm not sure this counts. Although I don't like it, I wouldn't fire one of my engineers for it. I would most certainly talk to them about, but firing is the wrong course of action without fully understanding in corporate. The problem is, we don't know their history. Has this person been a problem before or is this their first incident? Was this triggered because he felt like his environment was against them.

As hard as it is, you have to remove your emotions, period.

There's so much that HR has to account for. The first thing HR does is try to help vs fire because they'll have a paper trail.

MSFT would 100% lose in court if they are fired and this is their first incident.
I doubt it was the first honestly if they were comfortable doing all that imo.
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,921
The Netherlands
same here, went through an acquisition recently. Benefits are worse now. Lots of people left because of it.

Friend of mine left a famous middleware company when MS acquired them because there wasn't a single thing improving for him (and MS slowly killed most interesting projects because their focus on something silly). Getting acquired/merged by a very big company usually results into people leaving.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Zenimax should add these benefits. Simple as that. It wouldn't even be an enormous additional expense.

I was surprised when I learned that the new studios aren't being integrated directly into MS pay/benefits. But when I learned that Github and LinkedIn employees don't either, I realized that's by design. In some ways, those benefits may be better than what MS employees get, but clearly not in other ways. And it also prevents massive restructuring of benefits randomly out of nowhere for long-term employees. Pros and cons to all of that, but it is what it is.

Nevertheless, MS should directly support Zenimax providing better/minimum standard benefits for at least some major issues. That probably gets messy publicly, but at least make it happen behind the scenes. This should be a PR win anyway.


And it seems that even WITHIN studios, this can be a bit uneven. Mojang has its main Stockholm offices, as well as a sizeable (actually, probably bigger nowadays) studio team in Washington state, with MS mothership. The Mojang employees in the US seem to be MS employees with MS benefits. The Mojang employees at the Stockholm office are not. (Or so says, Glassdoor, so don't shoot the messenger if I'm wrong).

As for the assertion that small studios like Ninja Theory and Compulsion don't get benefits, because they're new acquisitions... that would again surprise me. Those studios are being directly integrated into XGS. They're small and probably don't have robust systems in place for getting good deals on some benefits like MS would. Not sure what the rationale for that would be, other than saving money - but is that worth it? You bought these studios for the talent.. Keep em happy. What's the point if you don't feel like your job is any more secure and/or comfortable after the acquisition?