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Deleted member 10908

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,256
The 360 took off because it had a year alone on the market with HD titles and new exclusives. AND THEN it was cheaper when PS3 finally arrived.
Not in Europe, they released a couple of months apart.
The consoles were $299 vs $499 for similar specs, by the time the PS3 came out you could already get deals below MSRP. I knew a lot of people who were going to wait for the PS3 and ended up getting a 360 because of the price. If Lockhart launches at 299 (while the PS5/Scarlett are 499), it will perform very well. Not saying it will outsell the PS5, but its not going to be a Xbox One launch disaster
 

Ringten

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,190
I don't see how it would not hold back the main consoles.... Keep it simple please.

Did not mind Pro or the X, since they were meant to elevate current-gen experience.
Releasing a weaker next-gen and potentially hampering games...get outta here!
Do all your fuckeries later on once you have a solid next-gen base. Not prior to that.

However, gotta say; if the marketing is on point, I can see this thing doing well. Hope it doesn't since I am against an all digital future as well lol
 

tomwarren

Senior Editor, The Verge
Verified
Apr 18, 2018
339
You must be having a field day now after all who did not believe you.
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,779
Yes; they are.

new UHD players are sold at 2x-3x cost for profit at $99. And industry expert tear downs of Xbox One S in 2016 indicated it cost them about $30ish per unit, similar to a BR drive. And Samsung stopped making UHD drives this year too, so I imagine prices aren't that much. $20-$30 max to include per unit

If Samsung stopped making them, that means prices have probably gone up not down.
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,536
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.

Oh this is exciting. Someone should hurry up and leak the specs lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,746
$20-30 is a ton in raw cost for a sub-$500 MSRP device...
Well yeah but they still need physical games to appeal to half if not most of the market and of course, retailers who need a cut of software sales.

they haven't had a problem with disc drives in consoles for costs in decades, why would they now? Especially since UHD is so cheap and not an expensive new format anymore since players are $99 or less?

Also, Sony and movie studios stand to gain ALOT if consoles sell 50-100M+ and give the UHD BR market a boost. Like 15-20M people probably own UHD players including Xbox units since 2016, were talking about increasing that market to 100M+ it PS5 sells as much as ps4, 150M+ if both repeat their success this gen
 

Timlot

Banned
Nov 27, 2019
359
Sony will build games from the ground up to support high end PS5 hardware with their triple AAA first party studios and Microsoft will be building games around Lockhart and upscaling them to support their higher end system. Microsoft is really helping convince gamers to buy PS5.

Both gamers and developers practically begged Microsoft to drop this strategy but it appears Microsoft is going all in on this one. Really disappointing combined with Microsofts refusal to support VR at all. Losing a lot of respect for Phil Spencer lately.

That's interesting. Doesn't MS build PC counterparts for all their first party games and downgrade for the consoles? Will Sony stop building PS4/Pro games for holiday 2020 and beyond?
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,133
I don't see how it would not hold back the main consoles.... Keep it simple please.

Did not mind Pro or the X, since they were meant to elevate current-gen experience.
Releasing a weaker next-gen and potentially hampering games...get outta here!
Do all your fuckeries later on once you have a solid next-gen base. Not prior to that.

However, gotta say; if the marketing is on point, I can see this thing doing well. Hope it doesn't since I am against an all digital future as well lol
Why would it hold back the main consoles? the disc drives already don't do anything but hold a gigantic physical license. By that logic the fact that people can download a game at all would hold back the systems.
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
Game developers will be expected to support both Anaconda and Lockhart, which some are worried might hamper their ambitions for next-gen games in the coming years.
This's in the article, but I guess scaling just works? I mean you can't seriously tell me current gen games we have now would look exactly the same if developers still made them for X360 and PS3.
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,783
These are separate thoughts you are conflating. That my Xbox One X runs my multiplatform games best does not mean that those games were not built to limitations of RAM and GPU features of base Xbox One.

That's not how any of this works. At all. Graphics part, as one example, is so incredibly flexible that it's so easy to squeeze out that 47% or whatever the difference was between Xbox One and PS4. If graphical features are getting cut, that would mean that developers were targeting PS4 with an already beyond compromised version.

period.

this is literally 1080p vs 4K

that's it

that's all
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
It really depends on what the direction the industry is going, whats going to happen to mega franchises like fortnite, minecraft, etc are they going have "next gen versions" built from the ground up?

When ppl talk about holding the gen back with a weaker base of lockhart, they are talking about some PS5/ANACONDA game with some crazy physics simulation that requires 10tflops @ just 1080p.
But it's a really dumb proposition because whoes going to want to do that? It's like Somone this gen doing the same on x1/ps4 but at 480p.
And I don't know what physics simulation a dev could not do at 4k with zen2 that would be inferior to 1080p one?

If you're talking about GPU sim, there's stuff you could do that you wouldn't necessarily want to do on a Zen2 alone, and that would be feasible to do in a gameplay affecting way on console because of the single memory pool. I wouldn't say too many devs would be wanting to do 1080p games on Anaconda/PS5, but how about 1440p or other resolutions reconstructed to 4K? I think that's quite possible, and quite acceptable, if the dev wants to leave headroom for other non-graphics stuff on the GPU, or, to bump the per pixel complexity. I don't think 4K native is necessarily how every game should be going on Anaconda/PS5 - certainly I'd prefer devs to have the option to explore.

For purely graphics stuff - higher per pixel complexity at non-4K resolutions - of course, with Lockhart, there's nothing stopping devs still doing that on Anaconda, and having a separate render path on Lockhart if it doesn't scale down to a decent enough resolution there. But there may be an aversion to doing anything too fundamentally different per-pixel between the SKUs, or a lean toward sticking to simplicity. It's a complication and it's hard to predict in every case that the dev would do with Anaconda what they would have otherwise done if it was the only SKU to worry about.
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
I see some people here saying it makes sense because of Game Pass, but that's possible on the X as well. And Xcloud can even be done on the fat Xbox One.

If this means more problems for devs, just...no. And I hope to God devs will target Scarlett first because fuck off if we're going to be dealing with enhancement updates/patches again.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
To be clear, a lot of Microsoft-focused reporters including Brad Sams, Digital Foundry, and Tom Warren reported over the summer that Lockhart was dead. Short of some widespread effort to fool those press, it's clear that Microsoft changed plans. And anyone who's been following gaming for the past decade knows that Microsoft changes plans just about as often as I change my daughter's diapers. So it's not really fair to say that anyone was "wrong" about Lockhart one way or another. All that matters right now is that it's still in the works.
But why go back and forth with your plans so much?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
actually good news for me. if games are held back by Lockhart's lower specs, maybe the budget gaming laptop I bought this past summer will be future-proofed a bit longer than it otherwise might
 

Glimpse_Dog

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,770
It would be 720p 30 on lockhart
1. Which dev would ever do that?
2. 720p 30 fps
It was just an example, the point is if developers are forced to designed for both it's going to lower the average graphical fidelity for games across ALL consoles this generation.

To answer your questions though..
1. Developers that want the best possible graphics because it's easier to market than resolution.
2. I'm not sure a game running at 1080p 30 theoretically built with anaconda in mind would be able run at all on lockhart, even at 720p.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,779
True, but Samsung stopped making all Br drives I think. Sony has already confirmed UHD for ps5, so it can't be too damaging to cost

I think the bad part about it is the prices aren't going down (may go up) and there are ~$10 in licensing fees associated with supporting BR movie playback as well. Don't ask for a source on the number, I don't have it.

Pretty sure UHD is expected for Scarlett as well, but we're expecting those consoles to be in the 499 range.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
they are forced to run the game on both, yea, and 1440p30/1080p30 wont really work either because lockhart -> anaconda scaling si simply too large.
Then they could easily go 1440p->900p

Like, dropping the resolution could easily account for the gpu difference. That is until the end of the generation when games are struggling on the more powerful consoles.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,377
Why would it hold back the main consoles? the disc drives already don't do anything but hold a gigantic physical license. By that logic the fact that people can download a game at all would hold back the systems.
If you read the article, it says there will be a similar performance gap to the one between the base Xbox One and the One X. It's not just missing a disc drive.
 

logash

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,698
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.
Sounds like you're suggesting that anaconda is gonna be really powerful and not affordable to some people so Microsoft wanted to have lock hart as an option. . .
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,783
They cant make developers do anything though can they? What if a developer makes a game run at 1080p 30 fps on anaconda with super next gen graphics. Would the game simply not release on lockhart? Damn I hate the idea of lockhart....

you cannot make a 1080p game on anaconda, just like you could not on PS5. They will be bound by technical requirement checklists.

imagine someone being dumb enough releasing a game with it's highest resolution as 1080p on the top end console in 2020.
 

zedox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,215
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.
xCloud :)
Which is obvious, but people don't like streaming in these parts.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
That's not how any of this works. At all. Graphics part, as one example, is so incredibly flexible that it's so easy to squeeze out that 47% or whatever the difference was between Xbox One and PS4. If graphical features are getting cut, that would mean that developers were targeting PS4 with an already beyond compromised version.

period.

this is literally 1080p vs 4K

that's it

that's all
The article suggests there are potential CPU differences and a power level of PS4 Pro. It does not say it is identical to Scarlett except for GPU.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,768
Sounds weak. Radeon 5500 is 5.2 Tflops and seems to be on par with RX 580.

Definitely not next gen even with a Ryzen CPU.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
you cannot make a 1080p game on anaconda, just like you could not on PS5. They will be bound by technical requirement checklists.

imagine someone being dumb enough releasing a game with it's highest resolution as 1080p on the top end console in 2020.
But how do you paint an underpowered image of Lockhart then?
 

klik

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
873
I hope next gen won't be held back by this lower cost xbox. But it probably will as its gonna be the lowest common denominator for making games. Fuck..
 

Simuly

Alt-Account
Banned
Jul 8, 2019
1,281
Cpu aside it feels like developers will still be developing game's on last gen specs for another 7 years

This is genuinely depressing thought if this thing is true. This gen has gone on long enough already and the thought of 6-7 more years of more of the same because one 'next gen' console is similar to the PS4 Pro is galling.

Of course I can suffer a transition period as the old gen is phased out in development but this thing will impact that.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,478
Dallas, TX
Yeah I don't believe it. That would be a waste of the opportunity Lockhart would provide. There's far less reason for Microsoft to be cost-conscious with their high-end SKU if they have a budget alternative available.

Not cost-conscious still means like $500. They're not going to release something going for $700. Hell, the $599 price point is still probably cursed for at least another decade. And if the story for Anaconda is 10TF, hardware ray-tracing, and an SSD of considerable size, then yeah, that sounds like you're at about $500 right there. Real question is how low they can get the Lockhart pricing. People may want more than $100 in savings to justify the performance hit.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,734
It's the same reason why Destiny 2 and similar games can't hit 60fps on the One X. They're CPU constrained. I feel like a robot keep saying this over and over, but CPU and SSD are the big leaps for the next-gen.
Really? Personally I reckon Destiny 2 is 30fps on xb1x because it's being gimped by having to stay the same as all the other flavours of xbox running the game and playing alongside xb1x owners.

This is how a lower baseline gimps better hardware.
 

LBsquared

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 22, 2019
1,603
The fact that its also weaker means I went from giving a shit to giving zero shits almost immediately. Such a dumb idea.
 

radiotoxic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,019
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.
I see. Seems MS is definitely not allowing themselves to lose the power race, huh.
 

Detective

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
Eh, not really. After all, I (and others) originally reported it was getting cut. Not surprised people didn't think it was back on again. Once dev kit specs leak, I'll tell the tale of why Lockhart is really a thing.

Do you think they will run into problems/issue with quality developing for both?
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
If Lockhart is aimed at 1080P and the CPU is pretty much the same. I think PS4 Pro level GPU would not hold back ambitions for Anaconda or PS5
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,783
The article suggests there are potential CPU differences and a power level of PS4 Pro. It does not say it is identical to Scarlett except for GPU.

this is the line:

"Developers briefed on Lockhart also say it has a faster CPU than any current video game console "

this is another line that I edited that is also true

"Developers briefed on Anaconda also say it has a faster CPU than any current video game console "

understand context please. there is no suggestion there.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
It really depends on what the direction the industry is going, whats going to happen to mega franchises like fortnite, minecraft, etc are they going have "next gen versions" built from the ground up?

When ppl talk about holding the gen back with a weaker base of lockhart, they are talking about some PS5/ANACONDA game with some crazy physics simulation that requires 10tflops @ just 1080p.
But it's a really dumb proposition because whoes going to want to do that? It's like Somone this gen doing the same on x1/ps4 but at 480p.
And I don't know what physics simulation a dev could not do at 4k with zen2 that would be inferior to 1080p one?

Hyperbole aside 1080p is highly unlikely on 10+TF (excepting special 120hz options), but CAS 1440p and CB 1600/1800p are very strong possibilities for titles that want to push the visual envelope. I don't foresee any developers pushing native 4K and 60Hz.
 

MonsterMech

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,409
I'd be down for this as long as it's not too "weak" I have no use for a disc drive in 2020 and beyond.

I kinda wish they'd have a "more powerful" version without the disc drive. Best of both worlds.

Somebody please explain why we still need disc drives again?
 

Timlot

Banned
Nov 27, 2019
359
I hope next gen won't be held back by this lower cost xbox. But it probably will as its gonna be the lowest common denominator for making games. Fuck..
I'm confused by all this "lowest common denominator" talk. Doesn't Microsoft and 3rd parties make the best version of their games for the PC and downgrade for the consoles? Won't the PC be continue to be more powerful than Anaconda/PS5?
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
But why go back and forth with your plans so much?

Because more than likely, MS realizes that this upcoming gen is almost like a point of no return. The choices you make are going to be felt for at least the next decade. They are just leveraging their products and trying to position themselves in the best possible position. With that said, Lockhart is sounding like buttcheeks and Tom is over here insinuating that Scarlett is about to be some mega beast compared to PS5 so who knows at this point?
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
The article suggests there are potential CPU differences and a power level of PS4 Pro. It does not say it is identical to Scarlett except for GPU.
So, it actually sounds like the CPU is clocked differently (though that isn't even finalized). But it's otherwise similar.

Like, the Kotaku article literally says it's designed to run 4K60fps next gen games at 1440p60fps.

And here you are comparing it to a 360->xb1 difference? Get real.
 

Glimpse_Dog

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,770
you cannot make a 1080p game on anaconda, just like you could not on PS5. They will be bound by technical requirement checklists.

imagine someone being dumb enough releasing a game with it's highest resolution as 1080p on the top end console in 2020.

There's plenty of games that run with their highest resolutions as 1080p on the top end consoles in 2019. I'm not saying it'll be common next gen but developers should have the choice of optimizing for graphics over resolution/framerate without having to worry about it running on some lesser device. Maybe I'm being overly reactionary but I feel this puts a huge hamper on next gen for me. I expected crossgen games to be 40k 60 but when we turned the corner properly itd be more likely 1440p 30/60 became the baseline with the graphics youd expect from a generational jump. Perhaps a mid gen pro version allowing some/most games to run at 4k.