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Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
That's hilarious that hand's off is a bad thing. If Anthem was a huge success people would be lauding the hands off approach for why it was so, just like they do with Apex.

Anyway, it is an excuse. An extremely common excuse meant to shift blame. It's just like when all the Titanfall fans went batshit and blamed EA for Apex Legends and how EA forced Respawn to make that game, when EA literally had nothing to do with it. Or when Destiny fans constantly blamed Activision for all the things Bungie were "forced" to do, until they finally wised up and realized Bungie was doing these things all on their own.

Btw, this is Bioware's third game with Frostbite. They weren't forced to use it, they weren't forced to start from scratch each and every time either when they could have been sharing tools. And yes, they pulled Frostbite devs to work on another game. I'd pull experts from a game in development limbo in favor of my biggest cash cow as well. ANY publisher would be stupid not to. Bioware also weren't forced to treat their fellow employees in different cities like second class citizens. EA never told Edmonton to completely ignore Austin's input or the thousand of other issues within Bioware's walls. This was a Bioware fuck up, not an EA fuck up. EA will get the majority of the blame, because that's how gamer minds work, that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean anyone point out that ridiculousness is choosing a hill to die on.
I appreciate your skilled diagnosis of my gamer mind.

The situation with apex is much different. Respawn definitely made it clear that they knew what they wanted to do and were executing on it just fine.

Anthem was intended to be broadly ambitious.

You say it makes sense for EA to pull resources into the thing that makes more money. Of course it does! The fact that it makes sense doesn't mean it didn't hurt the project. You also mixed up the chronology there, implying that happened after ea decided the project was floundering. In reality those resources were gone for most of the project, and EA sent a team of frostbite experts over once they started to panic near the end.

But maybe my gamer mind is overloaded.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,399
Man, you guys should play or replay Tom Bissell's and Matthew Burns' The Writer Will Do Something. It only takes 15 minutes and it's like an interactive version of the problems identified in the OP's article.

I particularly like the part where the lead developers almost take inspiration from Dark Souls before reminding themselves of the corporate mandate not to talk about it.
This is so good, wow.

The Writer Will Do Something; Or, Bioware: The Official Video Game Adaptation
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
Man, you guys should play or replay Tom Bissell's and Matthew Burns' The Writer Will Do Something. It only takes 15 minutes and it's like an interactive version of the problems identified in the OP's article.

I particularly like the part where the lead developers almost take inspiration from Dark Souls before reminding themselves of the corporate mandate not to talk about it.
This game gave me a lot of empathy for how complicated game dev is, and how disconnected it can be from gamer perceptions of it. Its such a stark rendering of how hopeless it must feel at times to be working as a cog in a big unwieldy mass of expectation and ambition from all angles.
 

Bold One

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
18,911
I am curious if the last few years will change EA's mind on things like single player narrative-focused games and remasters. They've been pretty consistent in their positions against such things, but with the negative reception of both Battelfront games, Battlefield V, Andromeda, Anthem, and others, combined with the success of both the kinds of games they don't want to make, and the games competing with their own, I do wonder how the future will look. Especially with their recently announced closings and layoffs- they clearly aren't pulling way ahead. At the same time, these issues tend to be heavily magnified on enthusiast forums and in gaming circles, while the general public might not care, and the numbers behind the scenes might be fine.

Would be nice to see a Bioware RPG that didn't have a forced multiplayer mode destined to lose its playerbase inside of a year and a bunch of bolted on micro transactions. And a remaster of the Dead Space and Mass Effect trilogies, among others.

I'll pay $60 for a Bad Company 2 remaster with a built-in server browser, Vietnam, and Onslaught, EA. I'll do it right fucking now, and you can even throw in micro transaction cosmetics, so long as they remain purely cosmetic.
BC2 ramke or remaster would be an instant win. But DICE are either too stubborn or incompetent.

Shame, it would be the first EA game I would buy this gen since BF4
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,561
This is the trouble with trying to come up with story stuff first, and I would have to think it'll only get worse as iterations with huge AAA assets take increasingly more resources.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
Kotaku has a new article that includes Casey Hudson's full internal email.
https://kotaku.com/bioware-boss-addresses-studio-issues-vows-to-continue-1833802608

My apologies if this was post already.

In the email, Hudson outlines a few broad solutions to the vision/crunch/pipeline problems but the one that caught my eye was this one:

And we are putting in place production changes that will provide for clearer project vision as well as a significant post-production period that will further relieve pressure and anxiety on teams during development.

They actually think that the live services model will help with the 'hockey stick' problem - if you can't ship content-complete, you can always patch it in later. Seems like that has some implications for narrative-driven games like Dragon Age.
 

H.Cornerstone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,706
Ultimately their multiplayer, games as a service games still bring in massively more revenue for lower cost than intensive, high quality single player games like Spider-Man, God of War etc. EA are purely focussed by the bottom line, they don't get any additional value like Sony does from those types of experience.

It's why they are more problematic than any other company in the industry. The insane wealth they get from their reliable monopoly on sports titles distorts their business practice and the market. EA has to measure everything against those games, and nothing else is going to compare to that guaranteed easy revenue stream.
I highly doubt Anthem was more profitable than Spider Man or God of War considering both were in development for a much shorter time, have much smaller teams and sold like over 10 million copies.

Hell, even DMC 5 is probably more profitable
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
In the email, Hudson outlines a few broad solutions to the vision/crunch/pipeline problems but the one that caught my eye was this one:



They actually think that the live services model will help with the 'hockey stick' problem - if you can't ship content-complete, you can always patch it in later. Seems like that has some implications for narrative-driven games like Dragon Age.
On a mental level knowing when you ship the game that there's still more to do, and it isn't just "additional content" in the same sense as paid story DLC like previous BioWare games, it doesn't make it easier to work on games. I think in the past crunch leading to a vacation and knowing either "next is the DLC or next big project" is what sort of justified crunch because you saw light at the end of a tunnel with some breathing room, maybe years, before the next crunch cycle.

Nowadays it seems with live service the player's eyes are constantly on you as a developer and you need to constantly manage, build and address the player base with fixes, content additions and promises of improvements to the structure of your game. I don't see live service being a solution to industry burnout, quite the opposite and that goes for both gamers and developers.

The only happy party there are the shareholders and CEOs.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
I highly doubt Anthem was more profitable than Spider Man or God of War considering both were in development for a much shorter time, have much smaller teams and sold like over 10 million copies.

Hell, even DMC 5 is probably more profitable
I feel like so many of these big games end up being almost total write-offs that the company hopes they can later spin off into a profitable sequel built off the massive skeleton they killed themselves constructing.

Totally healthy production model, hmm?
 

Threadkular

Member
Dec 29, 2017
2,415
I hope people think of this article when they make the "lazy devs" comments. These are people at the in a highly competitive technical/artistic field where only the top make it and they're working (sacrificing mental health, etc) to create something for others. I always wonder (and have to check myself) what others careers are when they complain about these people being "lazy".
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,084
I highly doubt Anthem was more profitable than Spider Man or God of War considering both were in development for a much shorter time, have much smaller teams and sold like over 10 million copies.

Hell, even DMC 5 is probably more profitable

Oh I don't think anthem was more profitable at all. I was talking about the general theory - games as a service earn far more than single player games, and that's obviously what EA is looking for. Sony gets additional value from exclusive single player games as well as the direct money they bring in - it helps to create a rich, viable gaming environment to make people buy into the PlayStation ecosystem. EA doesn't care about that at all though, so for them it's all about the bottom line. A successful game as a service brings in wildly more cash than a single player game hence why they keep pushing them.

BioWare ultimately is a really poor fit for EA and their strategy.
 

Almagest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,447
Spain
BioWare ultimately is a really poor fit for EA and their strategy.
That's 100% right.

It's like having a very good soccer player and making them play basketball, they might be able to adapt but ultimately it's not their thing.

I wish they just looked at what made ME3 such a success story (financially) and try that, give SP aficionados a rich campaign experience which will gather goodwill from users and critics and create loyalty to the series and then complement it with a good MP mode which can be exploited with optional MTX, etc.

I do realize that a) the downfall of loot boxes makes that much harder and b) it was BioWare's own idea to go full MP but still, I think that strategy would be successful and unite the best of both worlds. I'm pretty certain that Anthem wouldn't have been such an aimless project if they had their old BioWare formula as a safety net to fall back in.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
Nowadays it seems with live service the player's eyes are constantly on you as a developer and you need to constantly manage, build and address the player base with fixes, content additions and promises of improvements to the structure of your game. I don't see live service being a solution to industry burnout, quite the opposite and that goes for both gamers and developers.
I wouldn't say it's quite that black-and-white. Live service and DLC can (and to some degree, especially in certain studios, has been) quite effective at tackling one of the larger issues leading to a lot instability; the need to roll people from shipping to a new project far too quickly for it to be organized and usually cutting pre-production (easily the most important part of the production cycle) far too short. The cost of having hundreds of people without a clear ROI-positive role is difficult, but the strain of putting those people into a project that is not ready to scale also leads to situations like with Anthem (having 20 or so people work on pre-production for 5+ years is still much less the costlier than actually starting a game production before it's ready).

Of course on the flip-side, live services can be quite a pressure cooker with player expectations being ever higher and we often feel that we need to review every single request and ship immense amount of content of quickly (in reality you don't necessarily always need, it's important to find the pace that is actually necessary for a healthy game and org), as well as the 24/7 services to maintain (backend, servers, analytics, customer support, community management). But you can absolutely find a healthy balance (I work on a big live game with my whole team more or less doing 37,5hr weeks, and any extra time has to be taken off eventually, and you're not allowed to have more than 40 hours in the bank for a long period of time) and it will allow your organization to start new projects and staff them in a much healthier way than you would if you were on ship-and-forget prodution cycles.


They actually think that the live services model will help with the 'hockey stick' problem - if you can't ship content-complete, you can always patch it in later. Seems like that has some implications for narrative-driven games like Dragon Age.
I would say the scenario I outlined above is the way developers are more likely to view it as. The pressure to ship great games is always there and people don't strive to ship something where you "need to patch it later", but rather manage staff resources and leadership better (live games are also very good for actually coaching people into seniority/leadership). But, yes unfortunately it can easily also lead to that situation, especially if the deadline is inmutable like it was with Anthem. But inmutable deadlines alone are something that industry could really get rid off, especially when they are set far too early and based on assumptions that have not (read: could not realistically yet) yet been verified/proven.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I wouldn't say it's quite that black-and-white. Live service and DLC can (and to some degree, especially in certain studios, has been) quite effective at tackling one of the larger issues leading to a lot instability; the need to roll people from shipping to a new project far too quickly for it to be organized and usually cutting pre-production (easily the most important part of the production cycle) far too short.
Of course on the flip-side, live services can be quite a pressure cooker with player expectations being ever higher and we often feel that we need to review every single request and ship immense amount of content of quickly
You sort of hit the nail on the head on where I stand on the business model.

You're selling games, full price, but with less content because the model ensues developers to ship out their product with a thinner baseline experience with all the content you'd normally crunch to get out, to come later, but historically these GaaS titles like Destiny, Diablo 3 and Anthem all led to release-crunch anyway, but on top of that they displease their playerbase due to the lack of bang for the budget, only to be nickled and dimed.

You add all of that consumer dissatisfaction on top of that experience and I think that hurts developers too. Then of course, there's toxicity as well and we can argue that you should vote with your wallet instead of making angry rants but... I think decreasing consumer trust in the first place kinda works against itself and the idea of spreading out a game's development as a live-service product to the benefit of developers and work hours then. Ideally you'd want to remove any source of stress in a field of work, but if you ask me short-term intense stress is better than prolonged, dreadening stress over multiple years... Where potentially your consumers will sing praises for you because the shipped product was amazing.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
The issue is companies want to get the live service cash without putting all the effort.

Long-lasting and strong GaaS games including holdover MMOs from 10 years ago have a relationship with their users and strong community teams and doing what they say. BioWare was expecting their pedigree to.sell people on a live service game without doing anything to build trust. If anything everything surrounding the game's release around EA and Andromeda worked against it. Not that it mattered as the game was and is an incomplete mess
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
How many games does Frostbite have to cripple before EA just lets their devs use the engine of their choice?
 

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
Are premium (paid upfront) GaaS also a thing because piracy rates are much lower or in some cases almost impossible with the way these games can be online integrated?
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,403
How many games does Frostbite have to cripple before EA just lets their devs use the engine of their choice?

Is there any proof that upper management/board at EA is aware of Frostbite's shortcomings? In other words is upper management from the various internal studios bringing these issues to the attention of the board?
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Is there any proof that upper management/board at EA is aware of Frostbite's shortcomings? In other words is upper management from the various internal studios bringing these issues to the attention of the board?
BioWare was always notorious in my eyes for having hacky programming in their games, at least back to the KOTOR days and ME1. I've been modding ME3 for a while and I can definitely say not too many things are hardcoded but it happens, and I think the frostbite issue, as much as it is a general problem, BioWare probably suffers the most from its difficulty of use because they have a lot of middle-skilled staff who has to make things, and when that pipeline isn't defined that sort of hackneyed work can just become very damaging to the overall structure. That's why things keep changing back and forth in patches, and if that isn't true, then I suppose Frostbite is the fundamental thing that has some unintuitive code-base that causes every other thing you do to regress the code in other unexpected parts.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,403
BioWare was always notorious in my eyes for having hacky programming in their games, at least back to the KOTOR days and ME1. I've been modding ME3 for a while and I can definitely say not too many things are hardcoded but it happens, and I think the frostbite issue, as much as it is a general problem, BioWare probably suffers the most from its difficulty of use because they have a lot of middle-skilled staff who has to make things, and when that pipeline isn't defined that sort of hackneyed work can just become very damaging to the overall structure. That's why things keep changing back and forth in patches, and if that isn't true, then I suppose Frostbite is the fundamental thing that has some unintuitive code-base that causes every other thing you do to regress the code in other unexpected parts.

Thanks for insight. I asked the question because in my experience middle management when talking to upper management tend to downplay the issues as to not look bad. Especially if the thing causing the issues happens to be the brainchild of the CEO.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
You sort of hit the nail on the head on where I stand on the business model.

You're selling games, full price, but with less content
Depending on the game, this may or may not be true (and you have F2P where there is no full price per se.) You have to remember that you are still buying a game that's production value is anywhere between 2-10x higher than what for example games used to be. Or that many AAA games actually contain longer main story content that they have before. Or that the content the post-production content is clearly outside of the main storyline and pre-planned to be post-production and not by any means planned to be leftovers from production. Yes, there are plenty of realities that lead to games seemingly have more issues at launch (games are infinitely more complex, yet we still have far too much reliance on old management and development models that don't work with a rising amount of complexity in production), or most post-launch content, but that does not mean it's attributed to the business model itself necessarily (those would go under a topic called pitfalls of modern game projects, which is probably worth tens of hours of talk, so have to skip that for now).

Because the model ensues developers to ship out their product with a thinner baseline experience with all the content you'd normally crunch to get out, to come later, but historically these GaaS titles like Destiny, Diablo 3 and Anthem all led to release-crunch anyway, but on top of that they displease their playerbase due to the lack of bang for the budget, only to be nickled and dimed.
If you as the developer were do a root cause analysis on some of these productions and why they had release crunch (which is tricky topic, because in general more and more AAA studios are able to ship games with less and less crunch these days to the point where you actually have studios that have practices that far from the crunch times we talk about here) or shipped with "thin baseline experience" you most likely would not end up with the model being the cause. The titles you outline here have plenty of other reasons why (including exponential scope from their previous relatives, unclear visions with bigger teams, concepts new to the teams etc. - again these are all modern development pitfalls that happen in productions regardless whether they have any live components or not).And the model itself ensues in no way that you should ship games with a thinner baseline experience, in fact with the space being so crowded it these days encourages the opposite and it encourages developers to try to make games that truly stand-out, because you might be trying to draw existing social groups from a game that has been improved for a long time to a new product (which brings its own challenges, but another topic that is too broad to really tackle here).


You add all of that consumer dissatisfaction on top of that experience and I think that hurts developers too.
This is sort of a tricky subject, as there are plenty of (internal) metrics that point towards the opposite; players are often enjoying these games more than previous and the competition on the market is becoming ever tougher and games can (unfortunately) still develop towards even more ambitious concepts, technical features and more long-term content. That's not to say there isn't dissatisfcation or that I necessary enjoy all the directions the industry is going towards, but there's also a massive divide between how a majority of players view and play games and how us enthusiasts who take it up to forums, view things.

Then of course, there's toxicity as well and we can argue that you should vote with your wallet instead of making angry rants but... I think decreasing consumer trust in the first place kinda works against itself and the idea of spreading out a game's development as a live-service product to the benefit of developers and work hours then. Ideally you'd want to remove any source of stress in a field of work, but if you ask me short-term intense stress is better than prolonged, dreadening stress over multiple years... Where potentially your consumers will sing praises for you because the shipped product was amazing.
No disagreements there. However I would say the reality can be quite different in terms of what you view as short-term / long-term stress; just as an example, in productions like The Last of Us (a new IP) you are actually stressing for years and years about how things are going to turn out, as the real feedback comes very, very late and the stakes are high, where as when you are live you can get great feedback loops based on how players actually view things when you give them tangible content. However, the full equation comprises of so many different things, that I wouldn't really necessary say either type of production is less/more stressfull, as the contain so many different joys and hardships. I am more trying to get the fact that players (myself including before I joined the industry and learned what making games is really about) have quite different views on how developers might feel or be inclined to do, compared to what the job may entail in reality and what that means to us as human being (and players!).
 
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Maternal Heart

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 3, 2019
99
I wish they just looked at what made ME3 such a success story (financially) and try that, give SP aficionados a rich campaign experience which will gather goodwill from users and critics and create loyalty to the series and then complement it with a good MP mode which can be exploited with optional MTX, etc.

Mass Effect 3 wasn't succesful in both Bioware's and EA's eyes. They want a GTA or Skyrim seller, not a couple of million seller AAA RPG. So you will never convince anyone that they should go back to ME3's scope and financial expectations, as long as EA and Bioware are operating at the scale and budget that they are at.

EA wants big ROI and they are behold to shareholders and investors. ME3 and similar projects aren't going to cut it. Go big or go home, and keep it live service GaaS etc.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Extremely short and possibly reductive snip (onlookers, view original message)
Ah, I definitely get that! The feedback model of GaaS is in a way less contributing to stress since it's a constant communication versus making a game without anything but internal reactions for years and then crossing your fingers that you actually made all the right calls when it goes gold. I totally get that as well.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
Mass Effect 3 wasn't succesful in both Bioware's and EA's eyes. They want a GTA or Skyrim seller, not a couple of million seller AAA RPG. So you will never convince anyone that they should go back to ME3's scope and financial expectations, as long as EA and Bioware are operating at the scale and budget that they are at.
Unless you have a source on that (not saying you couldn't be right though, just I at least am not aware of that being the case), I would say you might be projecting a bit. After all, they did greenlight a sequel at the time (and never cancelled the project when it wasn't doing too well) when they knew the production cost would be a lot higher (and that they were going to start with less existing base by rebuilding their tools with Frostbite).
 
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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Mass Effect 3 wasn't succesful in both Bioware's and EA's eyes. They want a GTA or Skyrim seller, not a couple of million seller AAA RPG. So you will never convince anyone that they should go back to ME3's scope and financial expectations, as long as EA and Bioware are operating at the scale and budget that they are at.

EA wants big ROI and they are behold to shareholders and investors. ME3 and similar projects aren't going to cut it. Go big or go home, and keep it live service GaaS etc.
On the flipside they loved the multiplayer. I've heard it had a huge ROI, at least, IIRC Manveer Heir of Andromeda's dev team said so. I think that alone justified the game despite of the bad ending controversy. In hindsight maybe they were not so happy with the way this broke the final straw and named them "Worst company in america"

In case it was a success (and the core game sold fairly well too!) I think that's proof of concept that the single player + multiplayer component with MTX package is a good solution for EA to have if they can't make entirely loot-box driven games anymore; just make it a side-feature.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
Just an aside, the ME3 multiplayer had that part where you could unlock weapons/characters, and part of it was buying cards iirc which had a random chance of unlocking those things. That was basically lootboxes before lootboxes, right?
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Just an aside, the ME3 multiplayer had that part where you could unlock weapons/characters, and part of it was buying cards iirc which had a random chance of unlocking those things. That was basically lootboxes before lootboxes, right?
It literally was lootboxes. It was maybe the first game that wasn't a FIFA to have lootboxes and it was also a year before Andrew Wilson, the FIFA Exec who designed the lootbox, became the replacement to John Riccitello as CEO because of that.

I'm fully expecting Andrew Wilson to be replaced within the next few years because the loot-box ban has been killing his entire sales strategy, and EA just had a pretty tough earnings announcement and layoffs.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Just an aside, the ME3 multiplayer had that part where you could unlock weapons/characters, and part of it was buying cards iirc which had a random chance of unlocking those things. That was basically lootboxes before lootboxes, right?
You can absolutely point to ME3's multiplayer as one of the games that made EA take notice of lootbox-style service plans.

And I say that as someone who liked ME3's multiplayer too.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
You can absolutely point to ME3's multiplayer as one of the games that made EA take notice of lootbox-style service plans.

And I say that as someone who liked ME3's multiplayer too.
Yeah, I remember going through all that way back before I knew any better BUT right after I had a credit card. I used to complain about dupes way before Overwatch but since I played and loved ME3 MP so much I didn't mind (and had cash to spend).

Weird to think about now, knowing how bad lootboxes actually are
 

Maternal Heart

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 3, 2019
99
Unless you have a source on that, I would say you might be projecting a bit. After all, they did greenlight a sequel at the time (and never cancelled the project when it wasn't doing too well) when they knew the production cost would be a lot higher (and that they were going to start with less existing base by rebuilding their tools with Frostbite).

It's what insiders have said since ME2 and the former directors even were open about it back then:

"Well, we need to sell 10 million units," said Zeschuk. "That's actually the new target, right? We do Top 10 games, our stuff is quite successful. I know Mass [Effect 2] is number eight so far this year, in North America.

"Sometimes I'm facetious when I say some of those things, knowing that we can sell a few million but seeing that someone else can sell 25. You're kinda like, 'Well, that's a hit!' We always joke that if we only do half as well as Blizzard on Star Wars: The Old Republic, we'll be quite satisfied.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/bioware-10-million-sales-is-a-hit

You'll see this across interviews. The infamous interview where they also mentioned that GTA was basically a RPG, so why shouldn't Bioware's RPGs not sell the same amount? They've been chasing that target for over a decade now.

"These are people who will play FarmVille. These are people who have shot enough people in the head that they've leveled up in Medal of Honor. They've gained XP and have received awards as a result. That's an RPG mechanic.

"They've played [Grand Theft Auto] San Andreas and they've run enough, and gotten buff enough, that their endurance is a higher. They've leveled," he added.

"It's honestly on RPGs to try to figure out how to take the mechanics that people are actually loving in other genres and say, 'No, no, no. We had those years ago, but we understand that they kind of were scary.'"

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-25-bioware-dont-be-scared-of-rpgs

Regarding their current, bloated state, an insider wrote this some time ago:

Honestly BioWare's games weren't exactly lighting up the charts by modern budget standards in any incarnation, so they probably need another adjustment, though not back to where they were, assuming people want the studio to keep existing.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
I'm still upset they didn't spin off ME3's MP into a stand-alone F2P. After the first couple of months the population died down, and the population that remained weren't good at hosting so disconnects were constant. I went from playing every day and having good matches, to playing for 1-2 hours at a time and being able to only get into 3-4 matches with zero complete matches almost overnight.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
It's what insiders have said since ME2 and the former directors even were open about it back then:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/bioware-10-million-sales-is-a-hit

You'll see this across interviews. The infamous interview where they also mentioned that GTA was basically a RPG, so why shouldn't Bioware's RPGs not sell the same amount? They've been chasing that target for over a decade now.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-25-bioware-dont-be-scared-of-rpgs

Regarding their current, bloated state, an insider wrote this some time ago:
Right yeah, and I do agree based on those quotes. However, I would say that maybe a distinction that I would personally view is that ME3 as a title of it's own could have been succcessful (especially the multiplayer I remember being praised by EA executives, but I also might remember wrong, so take that with a grain of salt), however the trajectory and potential growth definitely would have not been what they would like to see for the series. I feel that is what Greg Zeschuk aimed at his quote; success on it's own doesn't feel enough when the industry's standard for top 10 success is growing, and their work towards the future doesn't necessarily seem to be on track for that may be needed. But point taken, thank you for refreshing my memory with those sources : )
 

Demacabre

Member
Nov 20, 2017
2,058
I may not agree with some of the stances Jason Schreier took last year, namely with some monetization issues, but the man is truly the only real game journalist the industry has. I really believe this article will at minimum improve conditions for the devs at Bioware and may extend to the greater industry at large. Great article sir.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,553
I'm still upset they didn't spin off ME3's MP into a stand-alone F2P. After the first couple of months the population died down, and the population that remained weren't good at hosting so disconnects were constant. I went from playing every day and having good matches, to playing for 1-2 hours at a time and being able to only get into 3-4 matches with zero complete matches almost overnight.
Hearing that the Multiplayer team was working on Andromeda actually got me hype bc of how good ME3's MP was. Of course, that turned out to be false
 

Jroc

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
6,145
I wonder if the industry is heading towards a GaaS crash.

If you have 10+ games fighting to be the "only game you play" then inevitably some of them are going to lose out big. There just isn't enough free time in a week for someone to grind multiple "never ending" games on a consistent basis. Maybe the whole industry will devolve into a battle for the whales.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
I wonder if the industry is heading towards a GaaS crash.

It's possible. Many are going to have to alter the monetization or at the very least provide tons of content because the ones that provide anemic content while expecting to make bank with standard f2p style monetization will just end up being meme'd into laughing stocks.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
The original pitch for Beyond was Xenoblade Chronicles X, but with Iron Man suits instead of mechs.
Any excuse to share Xenoblade X's world design is an excuse I'll take.
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I'd have loved an Anthem in the same vein.
 

Books

Alt account
Banned
Feb 4, 2019
2,180
In the email, Hudson outlines a few broad solutions to the vision/crunch/pipeline problems but the one that caught my eye was this one:



They actually think that the live services model will help with the 'hockey stick' problem - if you can't ship content-complete, you can always patch it in later. Seems like that has some implications for narrative-driven games like Dragon Age.
Inquisition didn't get a proper ending until three dlc's later.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Any excuse to share Xenoblade X's world design is an excuse I'll take.
LhMKryJ.gif

15_500_by_mcmemie-d8gvqsa.gif


I'd have loved an Anthem in the same vein.
as similar as Anthem is to Xenoblade X, the point of differentiation is that XCX was designed to be explored on foot first, with flying giving you some extra areas. whereas Anthem doesn't seem to ever want you on foot
 

CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,246
I wonder if the industry is heading towards a GaaS crash.

If you have 10+ games fighting to be the "only game you play" then inevitably some of them are going to lose out big. There just isn't enough free time in a week for someone to grind multiple "never ending" games on a consistent basis. Maybe the whole industry will devolve into a battle for the whales.

I mean it kind of seems like it. When it comes to gaming audiences I don't think it's necessarily a case of "fool me twice," maybe more like "fool me five times," but there have just been more high-profile GaaS failures than successes. Many have had serious problems in some way, and even the more refined ones like The Division, while good, are still kind of safe and generally un-thrilling.

I just don't think the whole idea has been as groundbreaking as analysts and publishers wanted it to be. There are still so many games that play it straight and succeed (God of War, Spider-Man, Horizon, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Witcher III, Zelda, so on and so on) that re-organizing a once-succesful studio like BioWare around GaaS seems counterproductive.

Just talking about financially, I almost guarantee BioWare would have been more successful sticking to classic single player RPGs, and that's not even considering the damage to their reputation and internal morale / mental well-being.

Edit: And when I say GaaS I'm talking about these sort of loot-infused, RPG-ish games, not things like Fortnite and PubG. While those are technically GaaS I see them more under the umbrella of modernized classic online shooters than a new paradigm of "shared world" games like Anthem tried to be.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,985
I wonder if the industry is heading towards a GaaS crash.

This seems pretty realistic. We're at a point where most people have more entertainment than they know what to do with. Between listening to music, listening to podcasts, reading novels, comics, watching anime, movies, binging entire series on streaming services, watching video series on YouTube of game streams on Twitch and actually playing games, people can afford to be more picky about how they keep themselves entertained. If everyone chases GaaS, that trend will fizzle like any other.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Unfortunately no. It's just on Wii U, but I've been begging for a port (but not on ResetEra though!!!) ever since I beat it last year.

Funny that, while I know it's sci-fi tropes, I think someone of the Andromeda team must've played this game a lot because so much of the premise and overall conflict is almost the same in those two games. They even share a reliance on "Pathfinders" that exact term in a setting where you have migrated to a new planet but "not everything went as planned" and you have to scramble things together to build out the main hub.

The best thing about both games is that there's a legitimate sense of progression in that hub based on your campaign and side-quest progress.
 

Gatti-man

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
2,359
I wonder if the industry is heading towards a GaaS crash.

If you have 10+ games fighting to be the "only game you play" then inevitably some of them are going to lose out big. There just isn't enough free time in a week for someone to grind multiple "never ending" games on a consistent basis. Maybe the whole industry will devolve into a battle for the whales.
Seems like it's here already. It blows me away that Division2 is really the only Gaas title to come with enough content and learn lessons that we've all seen since 2015/2016
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
No, but Monolithsoft hasn't ruled out the possibility of a port or sequel.

as similar as Anthem is to Xenoblade X, the point of differentiation is that XCX was designed to be explored on foot first, with flying giving you some extra areas. whereas Anthem doesn't seem to ever want you on foot
To be fair, in the early concept stage of Beyond, the game wasn't necessarily envisioned to be so flight-reliant. The team didn't truly commit to flying as the core traversal aspect of Anthem until they wowed the EA exec with their slapped-together demo with the flight they had stripped out before put back in.