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Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,080
Another thing, the fact that the E3 Demo (and game basically) comes from building a tailored demo for Söderlund based on his personal interests of "make it prettier". It shows how the higher ups just don't seem to care about games and they think about them as just money-making things that just have to be pretty to get preorders.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
If one things for certain Frostbite is garbage and needs to go.
They should just use UE4. Isnt it free?
Its not that its garbage and needs to be thrown out, EA needs to invest into a dedicated group that runs Frostbite for the entire company and provides enough support for all groups that are using Frostbite in their games.

It needs to stop being a "DICE" project, and needs to become a EA project that fuels all their other studios. Its obvious that DICE cant handle making their games and running support for the engine for all other development groups.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,381
Yikes. Fantastic story but EA has to let frostbite die and allow their developers use whatever engine works for them.

Really considering cancelling my EA Origin subscription now.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,470
New York
I think people are putting too much emphasis on Frostbite. Sure it made things harder, but when the story is constantly being rewritten and features like flying are being taken out and put back in, multiple times over the course of YEARS, the engine difficulties are not the main problem here.

If BioWare was producing games like Fallout New Vegas or Kotor 2 where the writing and design is great but the game is full of technical problems, then yeah let's talk about how Frostbite is the issue.

The issue is their leadership and management.
Without specifics it could be a chicken or the egg in certain circumstances where the engine results in uncertainty and issues on the leadership side. Leadership wants A and the dev groups try to produce A in Frostbite, but due to engine limitations and issues it either A doesn't work or is taking way too long to get right. So Leadership at some point pivots to B, and the cycle continues.

Ultimately it begins and ends with the leadership and direction, but the tools at hand can to a small or large degree exacerbate those problems.
 
Oct 27, 2017
956
This is what I call game journalism, great job jschreier!

This basically confirms all our theories (most of them were obvious):

Lack of leadership
"They talk a lot about the six-year development time, but really the core gameplay loop, the story, and all the missions in the game were made in the last 12 to 16 months because of that lack of vision and total lack of leadership across the board," said the developer.


Egos
Until very recently, hardcore BioWare fans used to refer to the studio's various teams using derogatory tiers. There was the A-team, the B-team, and the C-team. (...) "A-team" referred to the original BioWare, the office in Edmonton, Canada responsible for Dragon Age and the Mass Effect trilogy. (...) the "B-team," a studio in Austin, Texas that was founded to make Star Wars: The Old Republic, a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. (The "C-team" usually referred to Montreal, the ill-fated studio behind Mass Effect: Andromeda.)

"Anthem is the game you get from a studio that is at war with itself," said one former BioWare developer. "Edmonton understandably has the perspective of, 'We are the original BioWare.' Anybody not part of that brand is lesser, and does not garner the same level of trust as people that are in the Edmonton office. And so I think that's a little bit of an issue there."


Forcing studios to use Frostbite
One was that in 2016, the FIFA games had to move to Frostbite.

Said a second: "I would say the biggest problem I had with Frostbite was how many steps you needed to do something basic. With another engine I could do something myself, maybe with a designer. Here it's a complicated thing."

"It's hard enough to make a game," said a third BioWare developer. "It's really hard to make a game where you have to fight your own tool set all the time."


Again, great work jason!
 

MissCauthon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,555
So the REVEAL DEMO was all a lie from what they say. Even stating lots of fake scenes. I wish I could get a refund.
This is beyond belief.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
dumb question, but why is it that way. like why do most teams shoot for the moon, instead of starting from a more realistic scope?
I could easily list a thousand reasons, but here's a few:
- with the extremely competitive market, you need to be able to pitch a vision that even from a basic premise sounds like potentially investing 100-200 million USD so a "slightly better existing game" (which you can better scope for) isn't necessarily a very good pitch
- "new" and "unique" are things that people tend to want, but by definition mean that you don't exactly know how to achieve them
- the scoping process doesn't happen with the entire 200+ strong production team's input, but a few people (albeit experienced) trying to estimate how these potential other team members might make the game and how long certain parts might take
- there's a huge factor between being able to prove something (a game mechanic, combat loop, tech etc.) with a prototype, and making it in a production of hundreds of people and that tends to leave a lot of variance in estimations even when they are based on a tangible prototype (and prototypes can easily leave an impression that the task isn't as complicated as it is when it goes through the hands of different people in different time zones and being blocked by other people etc.)
- the markets shift and ultimately you will have new ideas or requests that by no means could have been thought of when doing the initial plan/scope
- even somewhat accurate scoping is a process that takes a lot of time, and yet there's always a limited amount of time before the studio needs to be able to commit staff to a project, and on other hand you probably don't have enough seniors to do this for multiple projects at the same time, so that you are prepared for pitches failing
- there's no set way to define and assess a "realistic scope" for an entire project, especially since we know that games made through iteration, and scoping iteration is just guesswork in the end
- you will not be able to know exactly who you have in the company, who you can hire in what time (you for example need to plan in that hiring a senior programmer can take anything from 1 to 9 months and for each hire this variance means a different outcome for the project) and tons of other staffing related reasons
- the industry is filled with creative people, and we often want to make great games, and we've tend to have learned that making great games means having an ambitious aim and trying to get there (and understanding that we might not be there, but even getting to space would be a great game worth making and worth investing to)
 

Plywood

Does not approve of this tag
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,079
Its not that its garbage and needs to be thrown out, EA needs to invest into a dedicated group that runs Frostbite for the entire company and provides enough support for all groups that are using Frostbite in their games.

It needs to stop being a "DICE" project, and needs to become a EA project that fuels all their other studios. Its obvious that DICE cant handle making their games and running support for the engine for all other development groups.
^^^^^
Though since that doesn't seem likely they really should just use UE4.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
Its not that its garbage and needs to be thrown out, EA needs to invest into a dedicated group that runs Frostbite for the entire company and provides enough support for all groups that are using Frostbite in their games.

It needs to stop being a "DICE" project, and needs to become a EA project that fuels all their other studios. Its obvious that DICE cant handle making their games and running support for the engine for all other development groups.
You could do that. You could spend all the time and effort and money to try and get everyone super trained and supported on Frostbite and I bet you'd still get worse results than if you just went with UE4.

I just checked and UE4 is free then you pay 5% when you ship.
I bet farting around with Frostbite for 7 years cost them way more than 5%.

I'm sorry but this seems like a clear case of cutting your loses and trying something new.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
EA want to use their own internal engine, using UE4 implies paying royalties for every copy sold, or something like that.
You can also buy a license without the royalty, but of course that is a cost attached to the project just as well (but certainly not as high as it would be a for the 5% from a huge hit game).
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I still didn't read the thread but I'm sure that people will say that EA is at fault when according to this article, it's by far Bioware who was mostly at fault due to the studio leadership and overall indecision (And yes, the thing I can agree is EA being at fault for the demand of Frostbite, which needs to be changed at this point)
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
As much as I love Anthem and the core gameplay, I really hope they keep pushing forward to make it better but this article is pretty depressing overall. More time in dev would have been great for Anthem, its such a shame that they have to do it now during crisis mode.

Frostbite is a beautiful looking engine but it obviously suffered the same issue Bungie had with Destiny, just takes too damn long to do anything.
 

Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,080
Developing a proprietary engine is not a wrong choice, on the contrary, is a great choice. But you have to commit to it. Give tons of resources, hire very very very good people. You cannot half-ass the underlying foundation of all your games.
 

The_R3medy

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,840
Wisconsin
What an article. Heartbreaking to read, and especially sad that the game was essentially built in the last 16 months. Granted, this seems to be becoming a more common occurrence in game development (even all the way back with Bioshock Infinite really only coming together thanks to Rod Fergusson).

I'd hope this is the wakeup call for Bioware that they need. Casey Hudson seems like the right man to lead the studio, and seemed to be a reason the game shipped at all. Hopefully Austin can also rework many of the issues Anthem has and make it better. Honestly I'd be more shocked if they didn't.

Edit: Also the number of people saying that Bioware should be closed in these threads is exceissve and sad. Thanks for advocating for job loss and further damage to people's lives.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,135
La La Land
"I actually cannot count the amount of 'stress casualties' we had on Mass Effect: Andromeda or Anthem," said a third former BioWare developer in an email. "A 'stress casualty' at BioWare means someone had such a mental breakdown from the stress they're just gone for one to three months. Some come back, some don't."

Damn. I have no words. I can't imagine what it feels to work in that kind of environment.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
You could do that. You could spend all the time and effort and money to try and get everyone super trained and supported on Frostbite and I bet you'd still get worse results than if you just went with UE4.

I just checked and UE4 is free then you pay 5% when you ship.
I bet farting around with Frostbite for 7 years cost them way more than 5%.

I'm sorry but this seems like a clear case of cutting your loses and trying something new.

Its call a long term investment that could pay off in the future. And 5% for huge games like EA's means paying a massive amount of money long term.

The issue is not if it could be done, the issue is if EA want's to do proper long term investment or just short-term gains.

IE See Ubisoft who manage all their studios with internal engines and are doing fine.
 

Liquid Snake

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,893
Incredible work by Jason giving us rare and valuable insight into the "human" side of development — stories we'd never hear otherwise, and I'm sure terrify the living shit out of the suits at EA.

Anyway, great job.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Also - Söderlund sounds like a complete stooge. And lol at the response by Bioware. They sure were quick to respond to the scathing article but they refuse to respond to their dwindling player base simply asking for answers.
I agree about Söderlund. Kinda glad he left EA. Wasn't he the same guy who disapproved of Amy Hennig's project and led to the shutter of Visceral?
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
Perhaps the most horrifying game dev post-mortem I've ever read. Bioware has to be a shell of what it once was.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
Holy shit that blog post!

"The struggles and challenges of making video games are very real," the post states. "But the reward of putting something we created into the hands of our players is amazing. People in this industry put so much passion and energy into making something fun. We don't see the value in tearing down one another, or one another's work. We don't believe articles that do that are making our industry and craft better."


Wtf? You have people leaving in droves because of insurmountable stress and unparalleled crunch times and then they have the nerve to say the article is bringing people down?
 

Sayers

Member
Oct 28, 2017
603
The most depressing thing for me in the article might have been the line about how the Dragon Age team was excited about Laidlaw's vision. Then that was scrapped to save Anthem and Laidlaw took off.

Always really liked Laidlaw, he seemed like he had a real connection to and vision for DA.
 

Malovis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
767
Seems rather interesting to put management blame on Bioware. EA had nothing to do with pushing certain trends and features as well as being the reason for departure of former key personel? What a coincidence that every time a studio goes to an AAA publisher, it becomes either crap or mostly trend chasing with no originality.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
The most depressing thing for me in the article might have been the line about how the Dragon Age team was excited about Laidlaw's vision. Then that was scrapped to save Anthem and Laidlaw took off.

Always really liked Laidlaw, he seemed like he had a real connection to and vision for DA.
At least the post-Origins era. Hey I liked 2 and most like Inquisition at least to an extent. It's a shame and I'm really fearful of having to build DA4 from Anthem's unoptimized and unstable foundation.
 

francium87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,041
What a horrendous generation for EA

Battlefield seems to be losing ground in terms of interest and sales
Andremeda
Need 4 Speed
Battlefront (1 and 2) backlash
Hardline
NHL is now stagnant as well
NBA is actually good but not getting mindshare, the price drop is crazy
ME:Catalyst didn't sell either
Titanfall 2 was fantastic but also didn't sell due to various marketing decisions (also not developed internally)

Closing studios, and they are starting to not have enough games to show at E3

They are propped up by Fifa (I still see the gameplay as worse than PES, but most fans care about licensing), Madden (so many complaints but no alternative), and Apex at this point
 

VZ_Blade

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,338
One hell of an article, good job jschreier. Upper management's lack of understanding of development is honestly astounding.
Perhaps most alarming, it's a story about a studio in crisis. Dozens of developers, many of them decade-long veterans, have left BioWare over the past two years. Some who have worked at BioWare's longest-running office in Edmonton talk about depression and anxiety. Many say they or their co-workers had to take "stress leave"—a doctor-mandated period of weeks or even months worth of vacation for their mental health. One former BioWare developer told me they would frequently find a private room in the office, shut the door, and just cry. "People were so angry and sad all the time," they said. Said another: "Depression and anxiety are an epidemic within Bioware."
This is horrifying.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I think the part that gets to me the most, although hindsight is 20/20 is the direct response from Gaider, that he felt dismissed by the Anthem leadership team about his writing work... and now look at what a rudderless mess it became simply out of this indecisive desire to "be something original".

Also, I have to give my F to Corey Gaspur. It's surely been traumatizing to a lot of his coworkers. I can imagine that has meant a lot of people left too... and to think maybe the high-stress culture at EA/BioWare is what led to that (it was indeed a suicide.)
 
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility towards other members
Definitely sounds like the same leadership that thought the Mass Effect 3 ending was acceptable. Bioware died to me back in 2012.

This is subhuman filth. Bioware "fans" that accosted the studio and embarrassingly threw around their own feces because an artist's vision didn't line up with theirs is why we are here today. This industry sells to the filthiest of humanity.
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,211
What a shitshow. I really hope some real positive change comes from this. EA upper management Soderlund seems far too disconnected from the dev process to be in charge of dictating anything. Sounds like an absolutely toxic relationship between them, Bioware Edmonton vs the other branches and the shit show that is the Frostbite mandate. Let your devs use something useful EA you cheap fucks. Maybe you could've prevented bad press like this in the process :thinking
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,181
Its call a long term investment that could pay off in the future. And 5% for huge games like EA's means paying a massive amount of money long term.

The issue is not if it could be done, the issue is if EA want's to do proper long term investment or just short-term gains.

IE See Ubisoft who manage all their studios with internal engines and are doing fine.
Yeah but Ubisoft seems like they have better engines.
Eh either way thats just my opinion.

One thing that did seem weird in the article is that the original pitch was 'Iron man but less cartoony'.
But then later on they weren't sure if they were even going to have flying in the game. They talk about do climbing and gliding instead. Surely if you want to be Iron man then of course you want to fly.
What a mess.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
Seems rather interesting to put management blame on Bioware. EA had nothing to do with pushing certain trends and features as well as being the reason for departure of former key personel? What a coincidence that every time a studio goes to an AAA publisher, it becomes either crap or mostly trend chasing with no originality.
if schreier couldn't get any of the bioware leadership team to comment there wouldn't be much insight into relations between the studio and the publisher. rank and file devs would see things coming down from their bosses, not the boss's bosses.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
I do have faith in Casey Hudson. A strong vision and the ability to make solid decisions and have those decisions stick, seems to be what BioWare badly needs right now, and I think he can provide that.

No more chasing their tail in pre-production for years and years and then scrambling to put a game together at the last minute. Commit to a vision, and then execute that vision.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,551
Seems rather interesting to put management blame on Bioware. EA had nothing to do with pushing certain trends and features as well as being the reason for departure of former key personel? What a coincidence that every time a studio goes to an AAA publisher, it becomes either crap or mostly trend chasing with no originality.

There is no universe where this isn't 95% Biowares fault. Their leadership is why the game was allowed to flounder for 4 years in preproduction until they finally gave EA a shitty demo to play and had to step up in 2017. Bioware leadership is the reason theyve suffered through 6 years of disasterous crunch and bad project management across 3 studios and 3 shipped games and changed NOTHING. Bioware got to choose the game they wanted to make and fucked around for years NOT making it. How you could come away from this article thinking otherwise is beyond me
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,154
Man this article paints an absolutely horrific picture of what it means to work at BioWare. No wonder so much of the veteran talent has left the company in drives over the past 8 years.

Their response tells me the people in charge for whom most of the criticism is a teachable moment will continue to ignore it. Without some serious changes with their leadership and management I can't see much genuine improvement happening so the dismissal of the article is just as damning as the article itself.
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
Jesus- they had to come up with a name for when people had mental breakdowns on this game

This stood out to me too.

I'm a physician, we deal with a lot of burnout and stress and anxiety in the medical field. This sounds like that level of stress and burnout. That's fucking awful and shameful
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,947
Frostbite is a great engine when it is used for what it was originally intended, Battlefield and FPS games.

The reason many of the sports games and other games that have used Frostbite have gone downhill is because this engine simply wasn't built for these kind of games and like it said in the article, without the support ot major overhaul in certain areas you are having to cut corners.

I even heard it was a nightmare getting replays to work in Fifa with the frostbite engine, I really do think we need to go back to the days of games being built around engines tailor made for them, sure it might cost companies more money creating new engines but the net result is better games in the long run.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Patrick Söderlund sounds like a villain, I cannot believe that EA tried to keep him.

Eh, why? By the pieces in the article, he's doing nothing more than supervising the project as the leader of EA studios at the time. And hell, the flying portion of the game (which is one of the positive parts) was there because he told it to put it back.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
Damn just got to the part where they couldn't even mention Destiny in conversation. No wonder they repeated flaws.