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Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,841
England
Within the studio, there's a term called "BioWare magic." It's a belief that no matter how rough a game's production might be, things will always come together in the final months. The game will always coalesce. It happened on the Mass Effect trilogy, on Dragon Age: Origins, and on Inquisition
Holy shit. The parallels with Fallout 76 never end. This is exactly what Todd said in NoClip's documentary leading up to 76's release. He said loads of new staff were asking "Are you sure the game is supposed to look like this at this stage?" And he would always respond "Trust the process. Our games always look rough right up until the end. We're used to it now. Nothing to worry about."

It's like Bioware and Bethesda are both suffering from the exact same hubris.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,642
I like how in the article DA: Inquisition is the percieved turning point of bad development processes that some of the team themselves wished had failed. Mediocre game praised that then led to mediocre disasters ridiculed.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,919
San Francisco
Hopefully this will shut up EA defenders "bioware chose frostbite".

What a sad story about a once beloved and competent studio. Some of my fondest gaming memories were from playing Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age Origins, SWKotOR and Mass Effect.

I mean Bioware stated that they CHOSE Frostbite so I don't really know what to say. This whole thing is just fucking weird.
 

BrassDragon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,154
The Netherlands
To be fair, I don't think it's the case that Soderlund had any particularly good instincts about it, it just seems like he was the only person in a position to actually hold Bioware accountable for making a game. It doesn't take a genius to realize you can't demo an ugly game with no gameplay hook at E3.

Good point but he also correctly recognised the swan dive launch in his 'personal' slice as the game's killer hook. Both descriptions of his involvement in Jason's article make him seem competent in his role or at least, not the big bad behind BioWare's failings.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Can we stop blaming EA now? Andromeda & now Anthem seem to be almost the entire fault of Bioware's mismanagement

EA dictated the engine they had to use. The amount of shit it cost the developers is all over the article Jason wrote. I'm unsure how you can read the article and come to a conclusion that we should stop blaming EA. They are obviously responsible for this mess, not to mention BioWare is owned by EA.

I mean Bioware stated that they CHOSE Frostbite so I don't really know what to say. This whole thing is just fucking weird.

I think it's pretty clear that they were told to do so publicly. Why would anyone choose an engine that would limit the scope of your game from the jump?
 

Fanuilos

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,140
It kinda speaks to the issues at EA that their response to getting Soderlund on board was making it pretty. Don't bother focus on the things like gameplay or writing, just make it pretty. It's a great article and Bioware's response is the similar meaningless platitudes they've been spouting for years now.
 

Big G

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,605
Reading about the split in morale between those at BioWare who were initially working on Anthem and those "stuck" on Mass Effect: Andromeda really reminded me of Jason's piece on another EA mess (Amy Hennig's Star Wars game). In Visceral's case, it was Battlefield: Hardline. It makes you wonder if "Ragtag" and "Dylan" would have panned out had these studios been able to focus all of their attention on them, instead of having to devote a large portion of their staff to making what felt like two pretty unnecessary sequels. EA's "Quantity over Quality" approach has been disastrous.

Excellent work as usual, Jason.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Management at BioWare is fine y'all, nothing to worry about.



What a fucking depressing read. Thank you for reporting on it jschreier. Tremendous work as always.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,349
My take on this as well.

Having played both at launch, this couldn't be more wrong. Destiny was light on content, never technically broken.

Nah. Anthem is better than current Destiny too. Destiny 1 at launch didn't have an actual story. Anthem has loot that actually matters, classes that actually play differently, and actual gameplay variety as a result. I also have had a pretty much bug-free experience with Anthem across significant time on two platforms, so it's been a polished game for me. If Anthem was worse than Destiny I'd be playing Destiny because I'm loving having a good loot game right now. Destiny is very not that.

Not what this thread is about though, so that's the last I'll say on it.
 

Fjordson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,017
One former BioWare developer told me they would frequently find a private room in the office, shut the door, and just cry. "People were so angry and sad all the time," they said. Said another: "Depression and anxiety are an epidemic within Bioware."

It's sad how common this sort of atmosphere seems to be in game development.

I've known for a few years now that the amazing BioWare of old was longer alive, but this article further confirms it. Just hope all the talented people who left or will leave the company land on their feet.

Also wtf @ frostbite. It can look damn good, but it sounds terrible below the surface.
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
I'm still incredibly surprised that EA didn't force Bioware to make a Destiny clone. It just seems so obvious when you play it.
 

Gray clouds

Member
Nov 7, 2017
465
Most of this doesn't surprise me. I felt like people on the discords and subreddit already guessed Frostbyte and leadership were the big issues.

The infighting between studios and the torment people went through... That's far too toxic. Top that with crunching an MMO-lite in less than two years.

I really hope leadership at Bioware isn't going to dismiss and ignore this, like they clearly done with so many other things. Things have to change at Bioware.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,919
San Francisco
EA dictated the engine they had to use. The amount of shit it cost the developers is all over the article Jason wrote. I'm unsure how you can read the article and come to a conclusion that we should stop blaming EA. They are obviously responsible for this mess, not to mention BioWare is owned by EA.



I think it's pretty clear that they were told to do so publicly. Why would anyone choose an engine that would limit the scope of your game from the jump?

Honestly? Hubris. They thought they could handle the engine and make it do what they wanted to.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,196
Gentrified Brooklyn
Nah. Anthem is better than current Destiny too. Destiny 1 at launch didn't have an actual story. Anthem has loot that actually matters, classes that actually play differently, and actual gameplay variety as a result. I also have had a pretty much bug-free experience with Anthem across significant time on two platforms, so it's been a polished game for me. If Anthem was worse than Destiny I'd be playing Destiny because I'm loving having a good loot game right now. Destiny is very not that.

Not what this thread is about though, so that's the last I'll say on it.

lol. I mean I get your opinion is your own (and you rightfully said 'for me'), but generally its agreed that Destiny's issues were around content. We've got two Destiny releases and reviews and posts from launch till later. Its not hard to mount an argument that Anthem is clearly seen as the inferior product across the board. I mean I love plenty of mediocre games too, lol
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
Honestly? Hubris. They thought they could handle the engine and make it do what they wanted to.

Jason mentions in the article that it didn't even have load/save functionality (with the amount of issues BF4 had at launch of the XB1/PS4 I can believe how fucked that stuff was) and initially when they were doing Inquisition the developers were dumbfounded.

They have a significantly larger staff and budget. Rockstar and Take-Two also had no problem delaying the game until it was "Finished".

It helps that GTAV continues to sell and make money for them, they could afford to push Red Dead 2 a quarter or two. Then again, FIFA is that whale for EA, so I dunno.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,732
Yeah, the initial pitch as awesome.

Maybe if they made it single player, they could work it out, shame Bioware...
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
Most of this doesn't surprise me. I felt like people on the discords and subreddit already guessed Frostbyte and leadership were the big issues.

The infighting between studios and the torment people went through... That's far too toxic. Top that with crunching an MMO-lite in less than two years.

I really hope leadership at Bioware isn't going to dismiss and ignore this, like they clearly done with so many other things. Things have to change at Bioware.

the subreddit was raving about the game in the beginning and showed itself as completely delusional, it was a big circlejerk of yay sayers.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,919
San Francisco
Jason mentions in the article that it didn't even have load/save functionality (with the amount of issues BF4 had at launch of the XB1/PS4 I can believe how fucked that stuff was) and initially when they were doing Inquisition the developers were dumbfounded.



It helps that GTAV continues to sell and make money for them, they could afford to push Red Dead 2 a quarter or two.

And then Team Anthem decided to dump all of the Inquisition work and start from scratch. Like just ... Why.
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
I think it's pretty clear that they were told to do so publicly. Why would anyone choose an engine that would limit the scope of your game from the jump?
Well from the rest of the article, Bioware's management seems pretty damn dumb. They didn't even know the scope of the game until years in. It's clear they were keeping the problems from EA as there wasn't an emergency until Söderlund was handed a pile of crap demo. Then he shipped them off to DICE for help.
 

LavaBadger

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,988
I still don't understand how Inquisition got so many GOTY awards, it deserved the kind of reviews and press Anthem and ME:A got.

It definitely didn't deserve any GotY awards; it's a bland slog. But saying it's the same level of disaster as something like ME:A is disingenuous.

I recently tried ME:A for the first time and thought, I'm going to give this an hour to hook me, and I didn't even make it the full hour before putting it down. The haphazard feel, between the bad writing, poor acting, animation that is all over the place, and sloppy looking bugs is just on another level for a AAA game.

DA:I by comparison is just really boring. They created a big, lifeless world and tacked on a ton of filler to make a 20 hour game take up 60 hours.

But it wasn't just... broken the way ME:A is.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,349
lol. I mean I get your opinion is your own (and you rightfully said 'for me'), but generally its agreed that Destiny's issues were around content. We've got two Destiny releases and reviews and posts from launch till later. Its not hard to mount an argument that Anthem is clearly seen as the inferior product across the board. I mean I love plenty of mediocre games too, lol
And I disagree that Destiny's issues are solely around content. There's been a lot of rumors about Destiny 3 being an actual RPG which sounds pretty great to me. I'm not into the shooter with skin deep character builds and weapons that Destiny does right now. Division is much better about this but it's stuck in a super boring setting with boring gameplay.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,643
Between this and Schreier's article about Andromeda, Frostbite really has turned out to be the giant albatross hanging around Bioware's neck, huh? I guess the real question is: are they going to learn anything from it this time? Dragon Age 4 is gonna have to be a hell of a pivot, and hearing that they're starting with Anthem's code base is... concerning.

I've reached a point where I'm not convinced they could do anything to win me back (It doesn't necessarily seem like Bioware is interested in making the kinds of games I'm interested in anymore) but hearing all of this just makes me sad. They used to be my favorite developer, and I'd rather EA didn't take them out behind the shed and put a bullet in the studio's head.
Why? The very fact that they are doing that is an example of learning from past mistake and is a good thing if anything. Just because Anthem is a failure doesn't mean the work done here on Frostbite is useless. By using it as a base they don't have to reinvent the wheel and can finish up things that were only partially done and not implemented in the game. Like Anthem went for a "fresh start" by not using the code base from DAI and Andromeda and that probably hurt Anthem a lot more as it's implied in the article.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,183
Chicago
The goal was to get away from traditional sci-fi and fantasy, so the game would feel distinct from Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

One concept that quickly emerged was the idea of a dangerous, hazard-filled planet. Anthem would be set on a hostile alien world, and in order to go out into the wilderness, you'd need a robot suit. A realistic, NASA-inspired robot suit.
The fucking dissonance here is unbelievable.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,643
2014 was not the greatest year for video games. :/
Imo Wolfenstein deserved it that year, but everyone was gushing over Bioware, Dragon Age and RPG as it was basically the only AAA RPG around for current gen that time. Shadow of Mordor was the other game that won GOTY that year and that was an ok game really.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,300
EA dictated the engine they had to use. The amount of shit it cost the developers is all over the article Jason wrote. I'm unsure how you can read the article and come to a conclusion that we should stop blaming EA. They are obviously responsible for this mess, not to mention BioWare is owned by EA.



I think it's pretty clear that they were told to do so publicly. Why would anyone choose an engine that would limit the scope of your game from the jump?

Of course EA dictated that, the engine is free for them since it's their engine. Why wouldn't they? It's the people being dictated to who are supposed to say "no that doesn't work." Especially when you're as established as Bioware is. EA (or any company) is never going to say "don't use our own product, use another one or make another one" unless they're told that the original product won't work.

And we already have one explanation in the article for why they would choose it; "Bioware magic." They thought it'd work out fine. And like someone else posted, I suspect Bioware management wanted to cozy up to EA so they could maybe make the jump. Bioware's leadership put the studio in a bind (a bad one, that may kill the studio) because they didn't want to do their jobs, which was to adequately pitch the resources they needed to make a successful product to EA. All they needed to say was, "Frostbite won't work. If you let us do something else, we'll make you billions." No publisher would tell Bioware no to that. Imagine what Anthem could be bringing in if it was as polished as something like Apex Legends or Destiny. EA would love that (as I'm sure they're loving Apex). They'd budge on the engine if it meant massive profits, but no one at Bioware (apparently) ever tried to tell them that.

Bioware's leadership (not the developers, but the execs) completely shirked their responsibilities here.
 

Cryoteck

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,031
It definitely didn't deserve any GotY awards; it's a bland slog. But saying it's the same level of disaster as something like ME:A is disingenuous.

I recently tried ME:A for the first time and thought, I'm going to give this an hour to hook me, and I didn't even make it the full hour before putting it down. The haphazard feel, between the bad writing, poor acting, animation that is all over the place, and sloppy looking bugs is just on another level for a AAA game.

DA:I by comparison is just really boring. They created a big, lifeless world and tacked on a ton of filler to make a 20 hour game take up 60 hours.

But it wasn't just... broken the way ME:A is.
The main reason DA:I managed to win so many awards is that it came out in an unusually lackluster year for AAA gaming. The Bioware we know and love has been dead for a long time, we are just waiting for the funeral.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,047
It definitely didn't deserve any GotY awards; it's a bland slog. But saying it's the same level of disaster as something like ME:A is disingenuous.

I recently tried ME:A for the first time and thought, I'm going to give this an hour to hook me, and I didn't even make it the full hour before putting it down. The haphazard feel, between the bad writing, poor acting, animation that is all over the place, and sloppy looking bugs is just on another level for a AAA game.

DA:I by comparison is just really boring. They created a big, lifeless world and tacked on a ton of filler to make a 20 hour game take up 60 hours.

But it wasn't just... broken the way ME:A is.

Pretty much. Inquisition is a dull and empty game but its cardinal sin is just being boring.

Nothing about Andromeda functions. It's a Frankenstein's monster of a game that I'm honestly shocked was even released at all.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,498
New York
Why? The very fact that they are doing that is an example of learning from past mistake. That way they don't have to reinvent the wheel and can finish up things that were only partially done. Not using the code base from DAI and Andromeda probably hurt Anthem a lot more as it's implied in the article.
It's a mixed bag. Only they know for sure, but if they still have that many issues with the engine, despite years of experience with it and numerous customizations, moving to something else, even if new and foreign, may be worth the trouble if said new engine is able to perform and handle certain core tasks much more easily and efficiently.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,368
Great article Jason, my heart goes out to those developers. The importance of having good leadership, strong project management and a champion for your product cannot be understated. If Bioware is building the rebooted Dragon Age 4 on top of Anthem's tech, then presumably it'll be a more live-service focused title in line with EA's preferred model. More than anything I hope this article inspires change in Bioware and that they don't go back to business as usual, people should be treated humanely any other stance is unacceptable.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,196
Gentrified Brooklyn
And I disagree that Destiny's issues are solely around content. There's been a lot of rumors about Destiny 3 being an actual RPG which sounds pretty great to me. I'm not into the shooter with skin deep character builds and weapons that Destiny does right now. Division is much better about this but it's stuck in a super boring setting with boring gameplay.

Again, opinion. YOU want more rpg elements, I remember there being people with the opposite opinion with Destiny 1. The thing is there was an actually solid gameplay choice taken in Destiny's case which I personally agree with you isnt my cup of tea per say (i wanted much more customizable trees) , but I can't objectively say it makes it a bad game, just less enjoyable for ME.

Anthem, according to the article, lucked out into this gameplay choice which you agree with but it doesnt make it a better project. I like military shooters, but if a military shooter decides to add arcade elements too much to my liking I may not LIKE the game but if they implement it and it works in the overall project i cant say its a badgame, just not for me.

You may like Anthem, but its clearly an inferior product compared to vanilla Destiny 1 + 2
 

CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,247
It really sounds apocalyptic at BioWare. I can't see any way forward in which the morale and direction of the studio are not irrevocably tainted by the situations described in Anthem and Andromeda's development cycles. Very sad but I just don't see them ever putting out another good game after the damage done, both in terms of brain drain / employee losses, as well as in terms of productivity and mental well-being for those still working there.

I think I'm also so pessimistic because it's clear they have learned nothing and built nothing with all of the time they spent. I could see if it was a case of Anthem launching 6 months too soon on a solid foundation, but this makes it clear that is a far cry from reality. It's barely held together and is not even a suitable foundation to build on. Really meaningful improvement would mean ANOTHER totally fresh start, which seems prohibitive at this stage.
 

Chronos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,206
Good point but he also correctly recognised the swan dive launch in his 'personal' slice as the game's killer hook. Both descriptions of his involvement in Jason's article make him seem competent in his role or at least, not the big bad behind BioWare's failings.

Söderlund actually comes off as a good manager in his role with this aspect. His only mistake was pushing Frostbite across all EA projects without the support or investment in customizing tools for everyone's needs.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,655
I don't understand why EA didn't step in sooner and change leadership. Bioware is already a shadow of it's former self as so many people have left, who were they afraid they would piss off? 3 disastrous dev cycles in a row is enough surely?
 

Mezati99

Banned
Feb 6, 2019
969
Planet Earth
things i took away from the article:

-EA is trash
-bioware leadership is trash
-bioware work environment is trash
-Frostbite is utter trash
-dragon age 4 is completely fucked
-Anthem will never be saved unless they pull a FFXIV and start from scratch

did i miss anything?
 

Wyze

Member
Nov 15, 2018
3,153
Sad to read, just awful reading about such poor working environment.

Not surprised about Frostbite, the game performs like crap and I'm sure a lot of the game design decision are direct consequences of dealing with frostbite. Shitty that management force them and all the studios to use Frostbite. What they thought was going to save them millions in liscening fees ended up coasting them millions more and with a brand damage that I dont even know they'll recover from.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,643
It's a mixed bag. Only they know for sure, but if they still have that many issues with the engine, despite years of experience with it and numerous customizations, moving to something else, even if new and foreign, may be worth the trouble if said new engine is able to perform and handle certain core tasks much more easily and efficiently.
The problem with that is even if the new engine is more capable if there isn't proper documentation for it (and it seems DICE doesnt really provide proper documentation) then it won't be something they'd be able to benefit from. Even small things like naming system seems to be causing big problems because they have no idea what it means without documentation. It'd definitely be better for them to just stick with the old one in that case.

What I think EA needs to do is tell DICE to work on providing proper documentation and support, this is something they should've done from the get go when they made the decision to use Frostbite for everything.
 

Hawkeye 131

Member
Oct 27, 2017
452
Canada
Troubling read but mad respect for Schreier and his sources for taking the initiative to tell this story.

Oh how the mighty have fallen
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
Bioware's management seems pretty damn dumb....They didn't even know the scope of the game until years in.
One thing that may not be apparent to the outside, but this is quite common in the industry and for multitude of good reasons. Most games start with an ambitious vision (if often quite ambigous), but the actual game is tens of thousands of hours of simply answering questions about what it is in practice (and working together with budget limitations, technical restrictions, learning from things that sound good when spoken, but simply don't work in practice etc.) and executing towards what seems to be the vision.

There's very few game productions ever where you can safely say that you undestand the real scope of the game and the production. Even those with supposed "auteurs" who are supposed to know exactly how things are supposed to be, are actually productions where these creative people have an idea, developer's execute it and it rarely is ready (or in most times even good) on the first time, so you iterate, iterate and then iterate some more until it works. That leads to a lot of changes during production like director's making a change to a mechanic and then the entire production team having to accomodate for that change, not because the original vision wasn't applicable, but after actually having to get hands-on time with the results, the director(s) can realize there's an even better option (which of course costs time and money outside of the original budget, so you cut scope elsewhere or add time and money). Trying to plan for N amount of iteration cycles for thousands of features (where N can be between 1-100 with no realistic average that you can actually use) is somewhat futile and you have to be comfortable with living with that uncertainty when planning game production.

Many of us have gone through enough cycles of shipping games (or updates/features) where the main takeaway has been "we just need design to do more work in the beginning and plan everything and we need to know the work and scope beforehand" and that almost always creates more issues and worse games. Understanding that what you envisioned, planned and scope will inevitably fail and has to accomodate for what you learn in produciton, and working with that to reduce the most important unknowns/uncertainty step-by-step is what leads to great games (and in this case, you can obviously see that they really struggled with that while having a huge pressure of moving forward with "a game" regardless and not being able to solve vision issues before attaching a production team to the project).