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16bitnova

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,700
User Banned (1 week): Dismissing concerns around inclusion and inappropriate language.
I dont get stuff like this. The creator has a story they want to tell. I say let them tell it how they want. Just because a few people are butthurt about how its told shouldnt make them have to apologize.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,963
I dont get stuff like this. The creator has a story they want to tell. I say let them tell it how they want. Just because a few people are butthurt about how its told shouldnt make them have to apologize.
I understand why you would say this. But one of the things they were pushing about the game since the beginning is the player's complete freedom in who they romance. Now the romances weren't very deep compared to say, a Bioware game, but they allowed the player control over their avatar's sexuality. Now along comes this DLC which forces the player into a heterosexual romance. It kind of spits in the face of what Ubi was advertising, and it astounds me that this got past the brainstorming session it came out of.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,166
I only played AC1/3 and I don't remember a single thing, are all protagonists the same line of descendents? I guess they had to hamfist a child if that's the case but still stupid if they gave you option to chose your sexual preference.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
I dont get stuff like this. The creator has a story they want to tell. I say let them tell it how they want. Just because a few people are butthurt about how its told shouldnt make them have to apologize.
.

Yeah who gives a shit that it hurts the LGBTQA community! They have to do this because of the LoRe!!!/s
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,963
I only played AC1/3 and I don't remember a single thing, are all protagonists the same line of descendents? I guess they had to hamfist a child if that's the case but still stupid if they gave you option to chose your sexual preference.
That's the thing. It isn't even the case anymore. Since Origins, they only need a DNA sample of someone, the Animus user doesn't need to be a descendant. In AC Origins, they just used a DNA sample from Bayek's mummified remains.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
I understand why you would say this. But one of the things they were pushing about the game since the beginning is the player's complete freedom in who they romance. Now the romances weren't very deep compared to say, a Bioware game, but they allowed the player control over their avatar's sexuality. Now along comes this DLC which forces the player into a heterosexual romance. It kind of spits in the face of what Ubi was advertising, and it astounds me that this got past the brainstorming session it came out of.

This doesn't change a characters sexuality though. The whole concept of Duty over personal choice/freedom is a huge in stories, and this sounds like a pretty simple case of that same storyline.

I have heard that there are moments where the character shows romantic interest, which definitely isn't right though, not unless you choose for that to happen.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,166
That's the thing. It isn't even the case anymore. Since Origins, they only need a DNA sample of someone, the Animus user doesn't need to be a descendant. In AC Origins, they just used a DNA sample from Bayek's mummified remains.
Okay, then I am not sure why they made the DLC like this. My first thought was they went "oh shit we need a kid stat" and made this post haste but it seems they are just fucking around.
 

Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,963
I have heard that there are moments where the character shows romantic interest, which definitely isn't right though, not unless you choose for that to happen.
Yes. This is the thing. The game forces your character to show romantic interest. Personally, my Kassandra is bi, but if she were to have a child, it wouldn't be with that fucking goofus.
 

SpinierBlakeD

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2018
1,353
So, as someone who played as Alexios, does the story play out the same way?
 

Kemal86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,401
Good. I want to see where they're taking the story and what their original plans were.

I hate the idea of forcing the devs to change the story they wanted to tell. The GGers freaking out at the women in the Battlefield V stories, the people years ago sending threats to Bioware over ME3's ending. It just never ends.

There have been some terrible takes in this thread, but comparing this situation, and the people rightfully upset about it, to fucking GooberGate is by far one of the worst.

Edit: I just want to add and say this: If the "story they wanted to tell" was that my lesbian Kassandra needed to get fucked and impregnated by this doofus of a man, in order to preserve the "purity" of the "Bloodline" (which is, on its own, aside from EVERYTHING ELSE, a giant can of YIKES), then, MAYBE, PERHAPS....that just wasn't story worth telling in the first place.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
Yes. This is the thing. The game forces your character to show romantic interest. Personally, my Kassandra is bi, but if she were to have a child, it wouldn't be with that fucking goofus.

Yeah that's just stupid then. I can understand being forced to do something against your will, and I don't think that's a very "hamfisted" plot point at all.
But showing clear romantic attention when they've given so much choice before, that leaves a bad taste. I don't think they need to change the entire storyline, or even apologize for the concept of the bloodline storyline, but they should definitely change some of the dialogue and interactions.
 

SpinierBlakeD

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2018
1,353
User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns Surrounding Inclusivity and Representation
.

Yeah who gives a shit that it hurts the LGBTQA community! They have to do this because of the LoRe!!!/s
Does it really hurt them though? I mean, at the end of the day it's a video game. There are much more real and serious issues in this world plaguing the LGBTQ community. This really seems like making mountains out of mole hills.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
The relationship is clearly framed in an affective way, not simply about "procreation".
I think this is the problem, the forced affection.
If it was simply about procreation then it'd be fine seeing how
that's exactly what their dad Pythagoras did just so he could continue the hybrid bloodline.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,957
North Carolina
Haven't played, but why does Oddeseys character need a bloodline? Like I know how the animus works but why does this character need a bloodline? Just make the next game about someone else's bloodline. Shitty reason all around considering you choose to make a character 100% gay. Come on Ubi.
 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
254
Detroit
Does it really hurt them though? I mean, at the end of the day it's a video game.

You're posting on a video game forum. Games matter. Art is incredibly important to our lives, and games by virtue of their interactivity are an even more personal art form than most.

There are much more real and serious issues in this world plaguing the LGBTQ community. This really seems like making mountains out of mole hills.

It may shock you to learn that human beings can feel hurt and upset about more than one thing at a time, and to varying degrees.
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Does it really hurt them though? I mean, at the end of the day it's a video game. There are much more real and serious issues in this world plaguing the LGBTQ community. This really seems like making mountains out of mole hills.
Yes?!? Representation matters a lot for us marginalized groups, so to see a game that represented us turn around and stab us in the back fucking sucks.
 

SpinierBlakeD

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2018
1,353
You're posting on a video game forum. Games matter. Art is incredibly important to our lives, and games by virtue of their interactivity are an even more personal art form than most.



It may shock you to learn that human beings can feel hurt and upset about more than one thing at a time, and to varying degrees.
I get that. I guess I've just never projected myself onto a video game character, so I've never felt "betrayed" because the story takes a turn I don't agree with. Even when I finished Mass Effect 3, all I thought was "huh, well I would have done that differently". The blowback that game got was nuts.
 

iamandy

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,297
Brasil
Haven't played, but why does Oddeseys character need a bloodline? Like I know how the animus works but why does this character need a bloodline? Just make the next game about someone else's bloodline. Shitty reason all around considering you choose to make a character 100% gay. Come on Ubi.
We don't know yet, but the director confirmed that the bloodline impact the Assassins in some way.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
Here's a hint:

Maybe, just maybe, if you're not LGBT+, you don't get to decide what is or isn't offensive/hurtful to LGBT+ people.

A wild concept for some in this thread to grasp, I know.
 

Micolash

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
25
People want the DLC to be changed because the DLC literally does something they said they would never do.
And Bioware said all choices would matter in the end, when in reality it came down to 3 colors (not that I complained at the time, since it was all about the journey and lead-up for me).
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Dear fellow straights, maybe, just maybe, the reason some of you guys "don't care" or equate this issue to some random ass happening in other game is because 99% of MC characters are catered to us. Maybe just try to project a little and use your empathy to understand why people that are never represented in gaming can take offense when a dev promised them to have a character when they can project themselves into it and be finally the hero, only for that chance to be taken out of them and get told that they have to grown up and have a straight relationship with kids.

Seriously, I think it's not a huge effort from your part to understand what's the diffence. This goes beyond than simply liking or not a story.
 

SilkySm00th

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,800
They never should have touted the game as this natural evolution of choices that will reflect and ripple out forever. If you want to tell a story... just tell a story. If you NEED a bloodline to make your story make sense then perhaps just write that character as that person.
I can see where they missed the boat on this though. They want to be all inclusive and give people all of the choices but then they remember that they actually want to tell a specific story as well and the two ideas are naturally gonna conflict.

Honestly i can't believe they didn't expect backlash on this one.
 

Ruffy666

Member
Oct 27, 2017
259
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing concerns surrounding LGBT inclusivity and representation; account still in junior phase
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Is it even appropriate to expect 21st century cultural sensitivities in a game about life 2500 years ago? I can see why some people didn't like the direction they took but this is really being blown out of proportion.
 

NinjaDBL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,091
Dear fellow straights, maybe, just maybe, the reason some of you guys "don't care" or equate this issue to some random ass happening in other game is because 99% of MC characters are catered to us. Maybe just try to project a little and use your empathy to understand why people that are never represented in gaming can take offense when a dev promised them to have a character when they can project themselves into it and be finally the hero, only for that chance to be taken out of them and get told that they have to grown up and have a straight relationship with kids.

Seriously, I think it's not a huge effort from your part to understand what's the diffence. This goes beyond than simply liking or not a story.

Thank you for this. It's whats missing from people in general when an issue from a minority comes up and people not understanding or not caring to, empathy.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Here's a hint:

Maybe, just maybe, if you're not LGBT+, you don't get to decide what is or isn't offensive/hurtful to LGBT+ people.

A wild concept for some in this thread to grasp, I know.

You've got people in the thread who are LGBT+ and don't think having a child out of obligation takes anything away from their sexual identity. While it's still undoubtedly offensive/hurtful to some people as is obvious by their offense/hurt, it's not like all LGBT+ feel the same way. Maybe you weren't implying that, but this post sure read like it to me.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns Over Inclusivity and Representation; History of Dismissing Legitimate Concerns
I guess I don't really understand the big drama about this. Perhaps a failure in their goal at the outset, but I know plenty of games that makes choices for the player.

A lot of times that's the only way a game can actually have a good fucking story. Too many games with the blank avatar approach already. It really makes for soulless characters IMO. When you try to make a character that is everything to everyone, they are no one.

But I guess some people need wish fulfillment in the virtual world. So I get that part.

And I guess I'm more interested in what the storytellers can present to me rather than imbuing myself in it. But that's just me.
 

Kemal86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,401
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Is it even appropriate to expect 21st century cultural sensitivities in a game about life 2500 years ago? I can see why some people didn't like the direction they took but this is really being blown out of proportion.

I guess I don't really understand the big drama about this.

Please see this post, and try and be a more empathetic human being. You're also not required to weigh in on everything, even on a discussion forum.

Dear fellow straights, maybe, just maybe, the reason some of you guys "don't care" or equate this issue to some random ass happening in other game is because 99% of MC characters are catered to us. Maybe just try to project a little and use your empathy to understand why people that are never represented in gaming can take offense when a dev promised them to have a character when they can project themselves into it and be finally the hero, only for that chance to be taken out of them and get told that they have to grown up and have a straight relationship with kids.

Seriously, I think it's not a huge effort from your part to understand what's the diffence. This goes beyond than simply liking or not a story.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
I guess I don't really understand the big drama about this. Perhaps a failure in their goal at the outset, but I know plenty of games that makes choices for the player.

A lot of times that's the only way a game can actually have a good fucking story. Too many games with the blank avatar approach already. It really makes for soulless characters IMO. When you try to make a character that is everything to everyone, they are no one.

But I guess some people need wish fulfillment in the virtual world. So I get that part.

And I guess I'm more interested in what the storytellers can present to me rather than imbuing myself in it. But that's just me.

Here's a helpful post 5 posts above yours to help you out!

Dear fellow straights, maybe, just maybe, the reason some of you guys "don't care" or equate this issue to some random ass happening in other game is because 99% of MC characters are catered to us. Maybe just try to project a little and use your empathy to understand why people that are never represented in gaming can take offense when a dev promised them to have a character when they can project themselves into it and be finally the hero, only for that chance to be taken out of them and get told that they have to grown up and have a straight relationship with kids.

Seriously, I think it's not a huge effort from your part to understand what's the diffence. This goes beyond than simply liking or not a story.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Please see this post, and try and be a more empathetic human being. You're also not required to weigh in on everything, even on a discussion forum.
And neither are you?

Please don't make it about my identity. I think I can have an opinion too in a discussion about this idea. I don't have to just nod my head just because I'm closeted IRL. doesn't mean a bisexual with a different perspective can't have an opinion?

And for another thing. To me this is about artistic cowardice. Ubisoft is taking the cowards way out by making a character that's supposed to be everything to everyone. I'd rather they make a character with real depth. Make any actually gay character and commit to it and not just some shit hollow avatar.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
Thanks. I already expressed this is about artistic cowardice to me and not about whether there should be representation. You are straw manning me.

I'm not strawmanning you, you're trying to use horrible rhetoric to justify an extremely shitty thing and acting against your own interests and the interests of the LGBTQA community. Have some self reflection and maybe come back and try again?

Also LOL at Artistic Cowardice - you do realize that they advertised the character from pre-release on as a character free to conform to the sexuality the player desires. True cowardice is shoving the status quo down our throats and trying to claim it as anything other than harmful. They backed down from that one with this DLC, changing something essential that they established from the get-go! You should be completely ashamed of yourself.

Work a bit on loving yourself, as being in the closet is such a painful place to be. But do not think that excuses you for stepping on the same rake over and over again.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Possibly even worse, then! lol how can someone be a part of the community and lack empathy and understanding.[/QUO
I'm not strawmanning you, you're trying to use horrible rhetoric to justify an extremely shitty thing and acting against your own interests and the interests of the LGBTQA community. Have some self reflection and maybe come back and try again?

Also LOL at Artistic Cowardice - you do realize that they advertised the character from pre-release on as a character free to conform to the sexuality the player desires. True cowardice is shoving the status quo down our throats and trying to claim it as anything other than harmful. They backed down from that one with this DLC, changing something essential that they established from the get-go! You should be completely ashamed of yourself.
no you clearly aren't fucking listening! Cuz if you were you'd understand I'm saying they should commit and just make a protagonist gay! A blank slate anything to anyone approach is just a half measure, and pleases no one. Which clearly is accurate because look at the problem we are running into now.
 

Grisby

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,531
I'm not sure its really an RPG thing. Lots of RPGs have set protagonists with defined sexualities and romantic interests. Like The Witcher, for example.

The problem was that they gave the impression that this aspect at least was left up to the player. And they seem to have missed the special sensitivity of this particular issue.

(Bioware retcons aspects of my characters all the time. I complain about it a fair bit, but its not really a huge deal that my Shepard would never have worked for Cerberus, or my Hawke is actually pretty OK with Blood Magic, because there's no significant real world equivalence)
Yeah that's kind of what I meant I guess. It's the idea of giving a false impression that it was left up to the player.

As for BioWare, they do have some weird choices given that my shep shep wouldn't have worked with them either but that's a while nother deal. As far as sexuality goes I don't think they've ever forced you into a set path in those games or sprung a hidden surprise like AC.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
no you clearly aren't fucking listening! Cuz if you were you'd understand I'm saying they should commit and just make a protagonist gay! A blank slate anything to anyone approach is just a half measure, and pleases no one. Which clearly is accurate because look at the problem we are running into now.

Literally all they had to do was plan ahead and write the plot around the possibility that the character would be unable to procreate if they were so worried about the 'lineage' plotline, which they clearly don't because as has been pointed out that the Lore of the series has been re-written extensively to give themselves plenty of outs because the Eugenics stuff was far too limiting to keep a series running on. Your bit about having a singular canonically gay character doesn't really mean anything in the context of this discourse. Of course that would be great! But that's not what we're dealing with. Ubisoft introduced the choice and failed to account for it in one of the worst ways imaginable. We are criticizing exactly that.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
Literally all they had to do was plan ahead and write the plot around the possibility that the character would be unable to procreate if they were so worried about the 'lineage' plotline, which they clearly don't because as has been pointed out that the Lore of the series has been re-written extensively to give themselves plenty of outs because the Eugenics stuff was far too limiting to keep a series running on. Your bit about having a singular canonically gay character doesn't really mean anything in the context of this discourse. Of course that would be great! But that's not what we're dealing with. Ubisoft introduced the choice and failed to account for it in one of the worst ways imaginable. We are criticizing exactly that.
Fine. Either way this is why I hate blank slate characters. I would much rather get well written characters that the writers thought long and hard about, than a smattering of everything. It never turns into good writing. To have no limitations is a limitation itself.

We are having two different conversations about the same thing. Two different lenses. I care about good character writing, which can also serve representation. I think blank slates serve no one other than in the most superficial way.
 

lojo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
573
Fine. Either way this is why I hate blank slate characters. I would much rather get well written characters that the writers thought long and hard about, than a smattering of everything. It never turns into good writing. To have no limitations is a limitation itself.

We are having two different conversations about the same thing. Two different lenses. I care about good character writing, which can also serve representation. I think blank slates serve no one other than in the most superficial way.

How is Kassandra/Alexios a blank slate? The story in Odyssey is whatever, but I haven't seen anyone describe the character as soulless.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,495
Fine. Either way this is why I hate blank slate characters. I would much rather get well written characters that the writers thought long and hard about, than a smattering of everything. It never turns into good writing. To have no limitations is a limitation itself.

We are having two different conversations about the same thing. Two different lenses. I care about good character writing, which can also serve representation. I think blank slates serve no one other than in the most superficial way.

I agree! Characterization can be far stronger on set characters, but blank slate characters and games designed around them have their place just as much because there are so many unique possibilities to account for. It's one of the few strengths the medium has over others, in that those experiencing it don't have to project when the game accommodates them. Frustratingly, Ubisoft took a half-measure with it and ended up with a mess that could have been avoided easily.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
How is Kassandra/Alexios a blank slate? The story in Odyssey is whatever, but I haven't seen anyone describe the character as soulless.
You are telling me something as informative of our identities and who we are as sexual identity and gender identity can be picked on the fly and it doesn't in any way effect how the character interacts with the world other than who they fuck isn't a blank slate?
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
Its amazing to witness the growing pains of the game industry juxtaposed to societal growth. Its one of the most interesting aspects of the game industry for me this past decade.
 

Gloomz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,402
If what had to happen (for future entries, dlc or whatever) was the extension of their bloodline, how do you think they could have written around this? I saw someone mentioned 'sci-fi stuff'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when we take control of Kass or Alex - aren't these characters actually in that time period, more or less, where they might not have a vat of science-fictionness with which to create life? Would they not be stuck to the means that were available then?
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
If what had to happen (for future entries, dlc or whatever) was the extension of their bloodline, how do you think they could have written around this? I saw someone mentioned 'sci-fi stuff'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when we take control of Kass or Alex - aren't these characters actually in that time period, more or less, where they might not have a vat of science-fictionness with which to create life? Would they not be stuck to the means that were available then?
There are fictional monsters and magic in this game.

It isn't exactly hard to justify magical babies.
 
OP
OP
sabrina

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
If what had to happen (for future entries, dlc or whatever) was the extension of their bloodline, how do you think they could have written around this? I saw someone mentioned 'sci-fi stuff'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when we take control of Kass or Alex - aren't these characters actually in that time period, more or less, where they might not have a vat of science-fictionness with which to create life? Would they not be stuck to the means that were available then?
by the time this DLC takes place the player character will have interacted with a shit ton of ancient race magitech, including a tool they can use to live forever. Setting aside their knowledge of this, the game could have given you choice in who you produce progeny with. It could make made it seem like your character wasn't enjoying it. It could have let you straight up choose not to continue your bloodline. The base game already lets you directly affect exactly which of your four family members survive the whole game. It sets up that expectation of control over your destiny.