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D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
The fan works would ultimately struggle to stand on their own without the Nintendo brand name attached to it. That's not to say that the games are bad, but rather that their reach is severely limited until they slap Pokemon on it. Like a poster above said, they're using Nintendo's branding to promote their game. It's not just for "some reason" like the article suggests. Using Nintendo IPs to promote your game that doesn't have any affiliation with Nintendo is illegal.
That's the thing, straight ripoffs or games inspired by Nintendo games can even get published on their platform as long as they change the name and characters. The likes of Oceanhorn etc.

There's just no reason to not make it 'Super New Character World'.


I wonder if Kotaku would take down another site that also calls itself Kotaku and uses their brand assets?
Yeah not even Kotapu, Cotacu or anything, just straight Kotaku with their logos branding etc. As long as it's 'free' it should be fine right, it's a tribute not a competitor?
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
This isn't any different from the group that was making a Star Trek fan movie and got sued. If an independent developer makes a game using someone else's copyrighted IP, calling it a "fan game" doesn't make it any more legal. These fan games do have consequences - I have two friends who played AM2R, and then when Nintendo's own Metroid 2 remake came out, they didn't buy it because they had "just played Metroid 2" and wanted something new.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,020
UK
I'm also seeing people commenting that "Nintendo isn't your friend." No shit, it's a company not a puppy.

This does need to be reiterated pretty often actually, considering how some people on Era will generally leap to the defence of any company they like no matter what shitty or shady thing they do
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
In fashion, collaborations of massive brands with "small potato" designers/labels are pretty common these days. Just think of the Pigeon Dunk Nike AF 1s.

Would be pretty neat if Nintendo could get something like that going. Maybe they take the Mario Battle Royale game under their wings and create a ID@Nintendo program or something.
Nintendo has been doing that, just look at Crypt of the Necrodancer: Cadence of Hyrule. The developer just contacted Nintendo to ask permission to include Link and Zelda as DLC, and Nintendo said "Sure! Heck, why not make it a full fledged Zelda crossover game?"
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,609
Nintendo has been doing that, just look at Crypt of the Necrodancer: Cadence of Hyrule. The developer just contacted Nintendo to ask permission to include Link and Zelda as DLC, and Nintendo said "Sure! Heck, why not make it a full fledged Zelda crossover game?"

Woah, they just asked? I thought it was the other way where Miyamoto and/or Aonuma discovered Necrodancer and was like "Hey, we should do something with that team!", and that's how Cadence of Hyrule was born?
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,182
It's their IP, it's absolutely the right thing to do. They have developed smartphone games as a lower barrier entrance to their IP, too.
 

jts

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,018
You're not being creative by aping an existing IP. You're being uncreative and trying a shortcut to popularity, built by someone else's past games.

Pricing games for free is irrelevant. There are donations and other direct and indirect means of generating revenue.

Stealing direct sales is irrelevant. IP protection goes way beyond that.

Be creative. Make your own IP. Don't steal. Don't ape. And watch nobody stopping you.
 
OP
OP
regenhuber

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,211
Nintendo has been doing that, just look at Crypt of the Necrodancer: Cadence of Hyrule. The developer just contacted Nintendo to ask permission to include Link and Zelda as DLC, and Nintendo said "Sure! Heck, why not make it a full fledged Zelda crossover game?"

Well that's a good start. But I take it that type of deal isn't really attainable for a small potato hobbyist programmer?

Not gonna lie, I don't have a perfect answer either, and would likey act exactly like Nintendo if I was in their shoes.
My best idea would be:

- Nintendo establishes guidelines & communication channels for small time devs
- Nintendo creates a eShop section for free "fan games"
- devs have the chance to turn in their stuff, Nintendo gets to decide how many & which ones make it on the eShop

That said, I can see how shutting everthing down is easier.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Woah, they just asked? I thought it was the other way where Miyamoto and/or Aonuma discovered Necrodancer and was like "Hey, we should do something with that team!", and that's how Cadence of Hyrule was born?
Yeah, pretty wild.
"We were considering making a new Nintendo Switch project," Clark explained to me "and we imagined how cool it would be to have Zelda characters appearing in NecroDancer; say as DLC." But Nintendo's interest apparently grew beyond a simple DLC. "To our surprise, Nintendo was extremely interested in the prospect, and before we knew it we were working on a completely new title, mashing up NecroDancer with The Legend of Zelda!"
 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,447
Kotaku is wrong and fans should stop being entitled. It doesn't matter if they release their fan games for free, it's still 100% illegal.

Imagine Nintendo taking some small debeloper's IP, making a game and releasing it for free? Would that be ok? Of course not, people would be up in arms, Kotaku would probably call that behaviour disgusting and tell everyone how it fucks over the owner of the IP and why they must sue Nintendo etc.

But somehow when the roles are reversed the corportation is told "to chill" when the fans are the ones breaking the law, it annoys me so fucking much, it's Nintendo's call how chill they are and in the case of games they're simply not.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,974
I just wish they'd actually start, you know, actually making some of the fan game ideas they've taken away from us over the years. Only took them ~13 years to make Lunar Magic official.
 

Deleted member 47092

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 25, 2018
379
Isnt it the case that ip holders have to be shown to be defending their IPs actively or risk losing their claims to it?
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
Because people still have to buy the games from Valve to get these mods.

If they're going to be sold I can't blame Valve for having them be sold on Steam, I imagine they're fine with the store cut of game being their license fee.

Valve also lets people make free mods based on their IPs as well. They even host some of them on Steam for free:
store.steampowered.com

Portal Stories: Mel on Steam

Portal Stories: Mel is a community made, free modification for Portal 2 based in the Portal universe. It tells the story of Mel, who meets a new personality core and faces an undiscovered threat to the Aperture facility.

I love how open Valve is with their IP. It also completely shuts down the argument that companies need to shut down fan games or modes to protect their IPs. Valve is in zero danger of losing the Portal or Half Life or Team Fortress IPs due to allowing modders to use their IP.
 

AmericanKirby

Member
Aug 31, 2018
774
Inside your house
I'm quite surprised the smw romhack scene is still alive and well. That makes me happy.

That's because they don't bother taking down romhacks at all for whatever reason (or at least I've never heard of them doing so). There's also a few random fangames they just seem to ignore for no reason. Like Zelda Classic, which was originally made for fucking DOS and is still getting updates to this day.

Isnt it the case that ip holders have to be shown to be defending their IPs actively or risk losing their claims to it?

IIRC that only applies to trademarks.
 

ivan.k

Banned
Dec 30, 2017
1,304
Moscow
It's their property, they have the rights to do what they want with it.
Make Legend of Xelda, Nario Royale, Donkey Wong and whatever else and sleep peacefully.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
Try as I might I can't take on that this argument is in good faith when in the same breath (ahem) that same site and in fact that same author is outright telling people about 'the modded PC version' of Breath of the Wild.

Normally, can't stand the 'oh because x game was reviewed poorly by y reviewer, I hate the entire z website etc' behaviour but Mr Plunkett typically covers all kinds of Nintendo software emulation topics on Kotaku and more often than not it sure reads like he's advocating for people to go right ahead and download whatever they can, from wherever they can.

Again, I could try and see his point of view but I still can't help but feel it's disingenuous.

It's downright absurd we're now drawing links between fan created software and......the go-kart driving guys in Tokyo.

The Game Freak interview tidbit is taken wildly out of context.

The anecdote about Halo asks us to believe Microsoft Lawyers With Chill were solely responsible for that franchise alone and like Minecraft, nobody created it, but it Came From Space.
 

Mare

Alt account
Banned
Jan 28, 2019
36
Dont make a Pokemon (Add any word), Design your own set of monster and put em in a world to capture em.
Dont make a Metroid game, Make your own take on metroidvanias.
Dont Make a Zelda game, Make an action adventure with puzzle elements.
Dont Make a Mario game, Make a Side Scroller.


also, likely they go for a blanketed Judgement, where does a game stop becoming fan project and more like a rip off??? rather than having to ask those question every single time, its easier, faster and better to just outlaw em all.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,916
TBF one of the more popular fan made Nintendo games (AM2R), was literally what Nintendo were in the process of doing themselves (MSR) when their lawyers showed 'no chill' I guess so you never know really. It's disingenuous I feel to act like that never happened.

Edit: and boy did people like bringing up how AM2R was the best 'Nintendo game' released that year lol so yeah I don't get why that game is ignored here.
AM2R is actually one of the better outcomes as far as I'm concerned. They could have sent a C&D at any time over the game's near-decade development, but they actually waited until after the game was finished and officially released on the Internet, at which point anyone who wanted to play it would be able to.
 

neilyadig

Member
Nov 13, 2017
588
While I love fan games, the issue here is that a shitty fan game could potentially harm the brand or IP.

For example, if a fan game really goes viral and takes off, it's possible it could be confused for something made by or endorsed by Nintendo. The game could contain some content which ends up being offensive/NSFW/against Nintendo's values.

Nintendo is not willing to risk damage to their brand for a fan game. I kinda get it. It hurts those who want to be creative with their IP, but it also protects the brand which is so strong.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,592
Arizona
User Warned: Drive-By Posting
Kotaku is wrong and fans should stop being entitled. It doesn't matter if they release their fan games for free, it's still 100% illegal.

Imagine Nintendo taking some small debeloper's IP, making a game and releasing it for free? Would that be ok? Of course not, people would be up in arms, Kotaku would probably call that behaviour disgusting and tell everyone how it fucks over the owner of the IP and why they must sue Nintendo etc.

But somehow when the roles are reversed the corportation is told "to chill" when the fans are the ones breaking the law, it annoys me so fucking much, it's Nintendo's call how chill they are and in the case of games they're simply not.
Imagine being this much of a stooge despite no financial investment.

Edit: What a completely ridiculous warning. I stand by this post. The kind of attitude exemplified by the post I responded to, this slavish devotion to a billion dollar corporation's clearly unnecessary "IP protection" from random-ass fan projects is just absurd. Sorry I didn't make that point as verbosely as you needed?
 
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gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Disagree about them not being competition - at least potentially they could be. As soon as people put out games that get word of mouth as being 'better' than Nintendo's, that obviously creates a problem. Or if people start to feel satisfied by fan games and stop buying Nintendo's, or buy less. Or if people even start to feel resentful toward Nintendo's games because they don't keep up along the dimensions that fan games might push out on but that Nintendo can't pursue.

Maybe this seems far fetched, but it's not that crazy an idea imo - especially as tech and tools evolve.

Equally, if a kid finds a bad game, and doesn't understand it's not a 'real' one, the damage is done.

They can't also have an ambiguous policy because some games aren't deemed good enough or bad enough to be a threat - if they fail to defend their copyright in one case it could weaken claims in another.

Putting the shoe on the other foot - if an indie created something new and another copied it, people would be up in arms, no? Even if it was released for free? It would be viewed as undermining the originator of the idea. Copyright exists for a reason and it's fair for Nintendo to defend its rights, and probably preferable for it to be unambiguous rather than to lead people up the garden path with a case-by-case approach.
 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,817
Nintendo coming after Mario Battle Royale makes sense with a new Mario game coming out that has multiplayer competitive modes.

Its 2019. Feel free to love products and IP's all you want but come on. Just make knock offs/spiritual successors. Though I feel like people just do it for the free advertising when Nintendo shuts them down.
 

nikatapi

Member
Jan 11, 2018
244
They have valuable IP, and they're doing what they think is best to protect it. I don't see anything wrong in that.
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
But most of these projects are not even being sold. As long as they are not made for profit Nintendo should chill the fuck out. Nintendo just sucks in this regard.

Eh... in the age of F2P downloadable games, you cant really let someone use the Pokemon name unauthorised even for a free game. It's their brand and they have the right to control how it's used...
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,236
Something I've always wondered is why has Nintendo never thought of trying to hire any of these fan game makers for themselves like other companies do to hackers, modders, other fan game makers, artists etc. It's clear many of them know their stuff, have a passion for the franchises and a love for the company, seems like a win-win for Nintendo plus you could then easily take those original ideas (especially the ones that got a lot of traction) into official games.
 

Greg NYC3

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,487
Miami
It's been ridiculous for a while. They really don't see the benefit that of some of these not-for-profit projects bring in terms of exposure and fan goodwill. I totally understand when they go after unscrupulous folks trying to monetize their IPs though
 

nbnt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,811
They're not going to change their stance on this subject and it's their right in the end.

Just stop making Nintendo fan games, simple as that. Make Sonic fan games instead.
 

Alex840

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,118
They have to unfortunately. If you don't forcefully fight rights to your IP (even for small projects) it becomes harder to defend when you really have to.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,020
UK
So are you guys also against fan fiction?

It's using an existing IP, not asking for money and the writer could just write their own stories instead

Does fan fiction cause competition with the real works to an extent that the original works are financially harmed?

What about bands that perform covers of other artists songs?

Why are video games, and Nintendo in particular, more likely to be harmed by fan projects?
 

jdstorm

Member
Jan 6, 2018
7,564
Pretty much. Like it or not, fan games can legit become free alternatives to the official thing, even crappy demakes on a calculator could lure a potential customer away from buying Super Mario Bros. on the virtual console (or now via Switch Online).

And folks COULD just make their own thing, but IMO they won't because it won't get even a fraction of the attention.

Honestly, just make showcases no-one can play. Pretty sure Nintendo is a-okay with videos and whatnot showing cool stuff involving their characters, and MAYBE mods to existing games where you rip your own ROM to patch in said mod, but only if you keep the ROM to yourself, that sort of thing.

Not everyone is Sega, and frankly, they only are cool with Sonic fan games because... you know. If Sonic was like Mario in quality and sales, you'd better believe Sega would act the same as Nintendo IMO.

Lol 😂

Nintendo would have to actually release games on virtual console for that to be an issue...
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Nintendo is extremely protective of their IP because it's the only thing they got. Consequently they're extremely anal about anything that they cannot control and might in any way "damage" them (this is up for interpretation and Nintendo will always decide in favour of Nintendo, obviously). As for a different example outside of games, see that real life go kart company MariCar which people thought was officially endorsed by Nintendo.

The issue is twofold, imo. On one hand, Nintendo's criteria for what is an acceptable fangame and what isn't can sometimes be very vague. With how this entire discussion has been going over the last few years and how they seem to be clashing with creators on a regular basis, it wouldn't be a bad idea to actually create proper guidelines.

On the other hand, people making these fangames have to be a bit smarter about what they do. From the little I played, Mario Royale pretty much lifted the entirety of SMB1, assets and level design. Of course that wasn't going to fly. It's silly to think it would.
 

roguesquirrel

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
5,486
They're not going to change their stance on this subject and it's their right in the end.

Just stop making Nintendo fan games, simple as that. Make Sonic fan games instead.
I would also argue if youre a journalist, dont shine a spotlight on a nintendo fangame without checking in with the creators to see if theyre cool with it first. Its basically just going
 

Zoantharia

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,860
Disagree that it's about competition (to an extent). Nintendo knows that these (admittedly niche) fan products will barely make a dent in the sales on their official releases. It's all about control. Control not just over the image of their IP, not just over the type of content associated with their IP, but about their exclusive ability to make games with their IP. Nintendo would not be 90% the company they are without their IP and their ability to create unique gameplay experiences with them. If anyone can just come in and make a Mario or Zelda game, they have no reason to exist. Their motivations, I feel, are more ideological than they are nominal (for lack of better terms). It's why they continue to be so litigious over fangames, while relaxing their restrictions for other types of content creation (e.g. their Youtube policy). While I can't agree with the way they do it, I do understand their position.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,236
So are you guys also against fan fiction?

It's using an existing IP, not asking for money and the writer could just write their own stories instead

Does fan fiction cause competition with the real works to an extent that the original works are financially harmed?

What about bands that perform covers of other artists songs?

Why are video games, and Nintendo in particular, more likely to be harmed by fan projects?
Yes, while I can't say anyone on ERA thinks like that, I have seen and known people who do believe that fan fiction is theft or cover songs are the height of laziness (which is why I like pointing out some of their fav songs are covers). Fan fiction especially gets highly stigmatised and treated as low art or worthy of mockery all the time sadly because of examples of bad ones. It ignores that many of the finest authors and writers we have have also written fan fiction, some writers use what they see in fan fiction to incorporate it into the lore (see Transformers and especially Beast Wars) or many our favourite works are basically self insert fan fics like Pokemon Red and Blue (remember Red is based off Satoshi Tajiri and Blue/Green based off Miyomoto).
 

Annoying Old Party Man

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
966
Embarrassing article to be honest.

Multibillion company has a friendly profile but it acts in a corporate manner to protect its intellectual property? OH NO!